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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2022 19:55:16 GMT -5
Here's my question; look at the roster, consider the whole year, and come up with The most disappointing giant or giants. I'm gonna select 3.
1st for me is Yaz. Hands down
Second, the manager, Gabe kepler.
Third, is one you might not expect. Austin Slater. By no means is he a star, but after the season he had last year and then the season before, it looked like he was ready for a breakout year. A breakout year that never came.
It just got really old watching him take pictures down the middle Chase pictures out of the strike zone, and other than a hot streak or generally underperform
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Post by reedonly on Oct 2, 2022 20:31:17 GMT -5
Kapler, Desclafani, Belt. are my top three but La Stella, Yaz, Wade Jr, Mcgee, Ruf, Leone are not far behind.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2022 23:18:25 GMT -5
I couldn't include DesClafani because he was hurt, as I believe Wade was all year long.
Actually, I'd like to amend my list, and add BFF as my number four choice
Yes the players didn't perform, but as I have pointed out many times it's my opinion that he almost single-handedly he destroyed this team before it could even get started
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Post by reedonly on Oct 3, 2022 6:43:24 GMT -5
Injuries don’t give you a pass. DeSclafani was supposed to be the number three starter.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 3, 2022 8:26:56 GMT -5
I disagree, Reed. In my opinion if you're hurt, you cannot perform. And since you can't perform because your body won't let you, in my opinion it can't be called disappointing.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 3, 2022 9:05:47 GMT -5
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I feel that if a player is injured, he is not making any contribution to the team and is using up resources and roster spot. Desclafani and Belt got paid a lot of money to essentially do their rehab during the regular season and to a lesser extent, Longoria, Wade Jr, Crawford, and La Stella were bad, too. Too many players thought they could cruise through the abbreviated spring training and ended up using the first few months of the season as extended spring training and rehab. DeSclafani, Belt, Longoria, and LaStella complained about injuries when they were ramping up activity during March which begs the question, what were they doing from November to February during the lockout? As a result, DeSclafani, Belt, and Longoria got procedures during the season which could have been done during the previous winter. Its one thing if your body won't let you go but its another thing if a player spent the whole winter without so much as grabbing a bat (Longoria) or doing any running (Belt). One thing about this past season that is obvious is who did the work during the lockout and who did not. Even if there is a lockout, they cannot spend the offseason playing with their kids or watching TV and expect to hit the ground running in March. It was not just about 2022, some of them played like they did not care about 2023 and beyond.
What worries me is that it seems BFF will try to run it back with most of these guys and the 2023 version is going to look a lot like the 2022 version (re-signing Longoria and Belt). That would be absurd if they attempt to run it back with guys who cannot run.
You mentioned Yaz and Slater as being disappointing. They were disappointing but at least they answered the bell for most of the season. On the other hand, three of the cornerstone players (Longoria, Belt, and Crawford) were not ready. This extended to minor leaguers, too. This off-season, a lot of formerly high profile minor leaguers have their work cut out for them.
Boly, you cut the list short at three but I had a hard time stopping at three.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 3, 2022 13:37:19 GMT -5
Honestly, I would have loved to have had a longer list, a list that included Ruf, Leone, McGee, Lyttle, Alvarez and others... but those guys didn't disappoint me. I EXPECTED them to revert back to what they were. Which was poor, below average, or simply not very ood.
Outside of Ruf, they simply experienced career years and usually when a player has a career year, the next tends to be a disaster.
And as we saw... it was.
Ruf had what I labeled years ago as his FINAL SPURT YEAR. (FSY)
I suspected that's what it was, so I expected nothing from him, too.
But Yaz and Slater have no excuse.
Zip.
Zero.
Ninguno.
But you bring up some really solid points: what WERE those clowns doing from November to February?
That DesClafani WASN'T ready to go STILL ticks me off! He KNEW something was wrong, and fiddly-farted around and didn't get it tended to.
So in that respect, yeah, I guess you're right; he should be on my "disappointment" list, too.
Wade was never healthy. I'd bet half the farm on it, but tried to play through it. I give him some credit for that.
La Stella? I just think he's done.
Belt? As Hicks told Ripley as they escaped in that vehicle on LV 426, when they went racing off: "Ripley, back off. You're just grinding metal on metal." Or some similar words.
To me THAT describes Belt's knee problems.
I've written about BFF and my feelings on what that PUTZ did many times, so I won't go into it again.
I will say this: HE caused most of the problems of this seasons, or if not most, than a large portion.
One more off season like this and I would show him and Kapler the door.
Personally, I'd show Kapler the door right now, but they really can't.
Just because I can't stomach that phony, woke, progressive jackass simply isn't reason enough to fire him.
But I wish it was.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 3, 2022 15:40:19 GMT -5
Boly: That DesClafani WASN'T ready to go STILL ticks me off! He KNEW something was wrong, and fiddly-farted around and didn't get it tended to.
that is why I put DeSclafni, Belt, and Longoria at the top. All three knew something was wrong and did not get medical done until it knocked each one out of the season. I realize because of the lockout that they were prohibited from using team facilities but the lockout did not begin until Dec 2 so there was a month and a half to figure out something was wrong and then take care of business. Longoria said that when he begin hitting drills in March that his finger started bothering him. That means he did no hitting drills from October until February. Similarly, deSclafani and Belt. Belt's case is pretty bad because he was not locked up for 2023 so he seriously jeopardized his 2023 contract. As it is, he's probably going to get either a minor league contract or an incentive based one instead of one of the big ones. That said, you know which team is the only one dumb enough to sign Belt.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 3, 2022 16:09:00 GMT -5
I certainly understand your logic, and I see why you included them on your most disappointing.
I was really more referring to players that were with the club all year, you're, then once that screwed up in the off season
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Post by reedonly on Oct 4, 2022 8:23:50 GMT -5
My feeling is that "failure to plan is a plan to fail". The injured guys had a deadline date of Dec 2 before the lockout and should have taken care of whatever they needed to take care of before that. Even Crawford was complaining that he lost muscle memory because of the lockout. Why not work with the coaches to devise an action plan to keep in shape before the lockout? DeSclafani, Belt, and Longoria had procedures done either right before or during the season which could have been done earlier and then back in action sooner. Some of these guys are cornerstone players and paid as cornerstone players and farting around during the offseason, lockout or not, is inexcusable. There was also abbreviated spring training in 2020 and 2021 leading the an epidemic of soft tissue injuries and its obvious some people did not learn their lesson.
You think Freedy Freeman or Paul Goldschmidt spent the winter on the couch?
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Post by reedonly on Oct 4, 2022 8:43:31 GMT -5
Longoria was injured again on Sunday and theathetic says he and the Giants are working on a compromise deal for 2023. His family wants him to play one more year so I'm expecting that he will be back. I'm not happy with this.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 4, 2022 8:55:17 GMT -5
I read that. I'm not happy with it either.
I just don't see the upside and bring him back.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 4, 2022 10:16:04 GMT -5
What get me angry is that he put off his finger surgery for about four months last off season and today I'm hearing he's really disappointed because his latest broken finger is keeping him from prime tee times down in Monterey. What can I say, he is a man who has his priorities straight. He set up his tee times weeks in advance this year but could not be bothered to deal with his broken finger last year.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 4, 2022 10:32:29 GMT -5
I disagree, Reed. In my opinion if you're hurt, you cannot perform. And since you can't perform because your body won't let you, in my opinion it can't be called disappointing. Even stats geeks will say that an injured player is worthless because there is no WAR and no win shares. Basketball and football players know better to get procedures done in the off season to get ready for the next season. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 5, 2022 10:27:10 GMT -5
I read that. I'm not happy with it either. I just don't see the upside and bring him back. I've read for Pavlovic that they are planning not to negotiate with Belt. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 5, 2022 20:09:17 GMT -5
And honestly, I think that's fair. If hes looking for the same kind of money he got this year, I'd shown the door. But I don't think Brandon is that kind of guy. I think you'll understand that the giants cannot offer him the same kind of money come up because they can't depend upon him to play a full season.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 5, 2022 21:32:22 GMT -5
And honestly, I think that's fair. If hes looking for the same kind of money he got this year, I'd shown the door. But I don't think Brandon is that kind of guy. I think you'll understand that the giants cannot offer him the same kind of money come up because they can't depend upon him to play a full season. I think the Giants realize that Longoria might be good for about 80 games maximum so the re-negotiation might reflect that. Belt does not feel he should have to go the minor league contract route but the reality is that it might be the only way or else he gets an incentive laden contract. I feel Belt makes more sense than Longoria because he is a better fielder for his position and he might have a decent year if he does not have to hit into shifts. I also get the nagging suspicion that they will end up signing both which would go against Farhan's stated desire to get more athleticism onto the team. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 5, 2022 22:46:03 GMT -5
I share that nagging feeling. We will end up with them both
So much for getting more athletic
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Post by reedonly on Oct 6, 2022 8:55:55 GMT -5
I disagree, Reed. In my opinion if you're hurt, you cannot perform. And since you can't perform because your body won't let you, in my opinion it can't be called disappointing. In an exit interview, the first thing Kapler addressed was that players did not come into camp at their best and he took full responsibility for that. He understands that he cannot control what players do in the off season but he acknowledges that this is an area that needs improvement. They now realize that even with the lock out, his job was to get ahead of the game and be creative and they did not do that. I'm not sure if he was truly taking the blame for the lack of preparation or was trying to throw the team under the bus. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 6, 2022 9:07:01 GMT -5
Here's my question; look at the roster, consider the whole year, and come up with The most disappointing giant or giants. I'm gonna select 3. 1st for me is Yaz. Hands down Second, the manager, Gabe kepler. Third, is one you might not expect. Austin Slater. By no means is he a star, but after the season he had last year and then the season before, it looked like he was ready for a breakout year. A breakout year that never came. It just got really old watching him take pictures down the middle Chase pictures out of the strike zone, and other than a hot streak or generally underperform Also in the exit interview, he discussed the platooning. He said that certain players such as Ruf and Wade Jr worked better in a platoon and that the only player to start 100 games at one position was Crawford so it was Kapler making the best of players with limited capabilities. I get that Wade Jr would have been a .200 hitter if he wasn't platooned . This means that the platooning is on FZ for having all of these flawed players. Furthermore, managment realizes that the platooning system and the use of openers is not popular with fans and is part of the drop in attendance they may pivot back to getting more every day players and not treating the whole team like a bullpen. Basically, if the personnel is bad, its on FZ, if the performance is bad, its on GK. One main problem with the exit interview was that he said major league players should be able to play multiple positions. I think that kind of thinking screws up a player's defense if the player becomes mediocre at a number of positions instead of mastering one (Dobon, Thairo). |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 6, 2022 10:02:59 GMT -5
Not sure I agree about players mentality in playing multiple positions.
I don't think that screws with them at all. Or at least not most of them.
Or example, Thairo DID master his position at 2B... BUT, when things get squeezed having that versatility is a must!
I don't mind the platoon system.
It worked for Earl Weaver in Baltimore for years.
BUT....BUT, he didn't platoon 6 or 7 of his starting 8
THAT crap is self destructive, IMHO.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 6, 2022 10:32:43 GMT -5
Not sure I agree about players mentality in playing multiple positions. I don't think that screws with them at all. Or at least not most of them. Or example, Thairo DID master his position at 2B... BUT, when things get squeezed having that versatility is a must! I don't mind the platoon system. It worked for Earl Weaver in Baltimore for years. BUT....BUT, he didn't platoon 6 or 7 of his starting 8 THAT crap is self destructive, IMHO. Thairo could do it but Dubon seemed to get really confused by the whole process and it carried over to Houston. The platoon system Earl Weaver used is nothing like the GK system. As you said, GK will platoon 6 to 7 of the starting 8 and it feels like too much. I think what GK is trying to say is that he was trying to put players in situations where they would have the greatest chance to succeed and its a fine line where the question is is it because they are flawed players or are the players typecast and reduced to becoming platoon players? I think Wade Jr and Ruf are example of the former and Yaz in the latter. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 6, 2022 16:26:08 GMT -5
I would bet that ANY OTHER manager would have had Yaz and Wade playing full time.
GK over manages. That's my opinion.
And honestly, I don't mind some platooning.
But not 6 or 7 guys.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 7, 2022 10:42:57 GMT -5
GK hinted in his exit interview that he was forced to do it because of the lack of firepower. FZ has also said that having 4 core guys who could go out there every day would make Kapler's life a lot easier so its seen as more that Zaidi kept getting them halves of a platoon.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 7, 2022 19:24:20 GMT -5
and we all agree, BFF.
Now go out there anD GET THOSE GUYS!
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Post by reedonly on Oct 10, 2022 15:24:12 GMT -5
I share that nagging feeling. We will end up with them both So much for getting more athletic Longoria's $13 million option will probably not be picked up but I'm hearing hat they are looking at some middle option between the $5 million buyout and the $13 million option so I'm thinking it will be $9-10 million for 2023 as the middle ground. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 10, 2022 15:25:10 GMT -5
and we all agree, BFF. Now go out there anD GET THOSE GUYS! Nightengale has mentioned Judge and Trea Turner but until I see otherwise, FZ is blowing smoke. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 10, 2022 15:26:30 GMT -5
And honestly, I think that's fair. If hes looking for the same kind of money he got this year, I'd shown the door. But I don't think Brandon is that kind of guy. I think you'll understand that the giants cannot offer him the same kind of money come up because they can't depend upon him to play a full season. Houston might be a good fit for Belt since the incumbent 1B there is actually older than Belt and its closer to his home. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 11, 2022 10:39:46 GMT -5
and we all agree, BFF. Now go out there anD GET THOSE GUYS! Nightengale has mentioned Judge and Trea Turner but until I see otherwise, FZ is blowing smoke. With Putila as new GM, I now expect them to get players who are more athletic like they did in Houston but not necessarily the big names. I would be very surprised if they signed Judge or Rodon (echoing what Estes said) but I feel that getting a new SS is a priority and tightening up the defense will be the quickest fix. Krukow mentioned this morning that the Giants lacked in controlling the running game and SBs have been a factor in the playoffs. So, pitching and defense will be higher on the shopping list. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 12, 2022 9:59:44 GMT -5
I have said earlier that I don't want either.
Too much money for Judge that would PREVENT us from signing the necessary talent around him to win.
Rodon just disturbs me. Too many command issues, IMHO, and when his fastball goes...he's a batting practice pitcher as his FB as 0 movement.
And his fastball WILL go. Maybe not this year, and maybe not the next, but IF we sign him to a long, multi-year deal, we will get badly hosed on the back end.
And that assumes he'll stay healthy, which I'm betting he wont'.
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