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Ace?
Aug 19, 2023 21:29:39 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 19, 2023 21:29:39 GMT -5
So so much for our Ace being there when we needed him
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 7:33:17 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 20, 2023 7:33:17 GMT -5
I would give him a pass this time. Hot and humid.
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 8:18:22 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 20, 2023 8:18:22 GMT -5
Can't do that. It was 87° and only 48% humidity. As far as humidity goes in the south, 48% is very low.
Asus give your team a chance to win regardless of the weather. I think back to people like Sandy koufax, Don drysdale, Jim bunning, Bob gibson, Warren spahn, and so many more. Those were the Aces and the weather didn't matter.
He doesn't get a pass from me. I can't give any Ace a pass when they simply don't execute.
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 10:39:05 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 20, 2023 10:39:05 GMT -5
I knew you would say that but I feel he did adequate. Players nowadays are coddled a lot more than in the past so pitchers aren't used to changes in the weather as they were in the past. 6 innings, 4 runs against tough Atlanta team, 95 pitches is nothing to write home about but adequate. Remember, guys like Lincecum always used to have trouble on east coast swings so its not like its something new. Also, every single one of the guys you mentioned had the benefit of the bigger strike zone and higher mound. For yesterday's game, I have more of an issue with Rogers coughing it up.
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 11:15:34 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 20, 2023 11:15:34 GMT -5
What I have noticed about Tyler is that in his first inning of work he does pretty well. It's only when they run him out there for the second inning that he has problems. That makes me wonder if it's an adrenaline problem as in in the second inning of work for him his adrenaline is not pumping like it was earlier.
And either case, I think an ace needs to show up every day that his term is called, and not accept weather issues as the reason for not playing well. I go back to all the guys I referenced earlier they played in bad weather too but they showed up with their a game most of the time.
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 13:14:18 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 20, 2023 13:14:18 GMT -5
I get what you are saying about "ace" but I'm not sure they exist anymore, maybe five of them in all of MLB whereas in the golden era, most every team had one. That was a different time back then. Might as well ask for leaving your front door unlocked, manners, respect for elders ...
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 14:05:53 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 20, 2023 14:05:53 GMT -5
Reed, you are most likely right. And, if each team HAS TO NAME an ace, I guess Webb is ours.
But that's a title only, and little more.
A true ACE shows up in the big games, as he did in 2021.
But again, my issue with Webb and Cobb both is that they REFUSE to work up in the strike zone!
Thus, hitters ONLY look down.
Cobb got beaten in some really good, down pitches in the first inning.
They went for hits.
If both of these guys would work up some, hitters would be forced to not be so narrowly focused.
You'd think big leaguers would know this.
Apparently not.
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 22:20:01 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 20, 2023 22:20:01 GMT -5
I think that really comes down to the pitching coach, Boly. I don't think a solid pitching strategy is in place for these guys which is resulting in them falling short of their potential.
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Ace?
Aug 20, 2023 23:21:11 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 20, 2023 23:21:11 GMT -5
Too much platooning and not letting pitchers go a second time through the lineup or taking out a left handed hitter when facing a left handed pitcher. It is a fine balance between putting a player in the best position to succeed and being conditioned to expect failure in certain situations. When players do not get experience in uncomfortable situations, they do not get the experience to deal with it and become accustomed to failing. The team has too many pitchers who they do not trust to get through a lineup more than once and to many hitters that are only adequate on one side of the plate. I can understand one or two guys like that but when the majority of the team is like that, its either deficient players or an organization which does not encourage players to work on skills.
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Ace?
Aug 21, 2023 8:38:27 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 21, 2023 8:38:27 GMT -5
I agree with both of you.
This is what Don Sutton said for years
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Ace?
Aug 21, 2023 11:22:07 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 21, 2023 11:22:07 GMT -5
Maybe the Ace arrives tomorrow. Harrison is going to make his first ML start tomorrow. They realize the Phillies are left handed heavy lineup so this gives him the best chance to succeed. A couple of things. They are going to really pay attention to the pitch count so that will determine how long he goes for tomorrow. The promotion was based on getting his walks numbers down. The ABS (automatic balls and strikes) was being used in the PCL Monday through Thursday so they had him pitch on days where there was no ABS and walks went down.
There was talk that the Giants kept Harrison back to manipulate service time. In the new collective bargaining agreement, a team gets an extra draft pick after the first round if the player gets ROY or is in the top three in MVP or Cy voting. SO in holding Harrison back, he is rookie eligible for next season. I don't think the Giants were totally trying to manipulate the service time because he was giving up a lot of walks where the WHIP was over 1.5 but knowing FZ, service time was a partial factor. Hopefully, Harrison does not have to wear a minor league uniform again.
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Ace?
Aug 21, 2023 12:45:30 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 21, 2023 12:45:30 GMT -5
That would be nice. And would also be nice for us to do to other teams, what rookie pictures often do to us.
I wondered about that automatic strike zone for quite a while, since I first heard that guys were getting squeezed by it.
I'm hoping Harrison is one of those guys, and I'm hoping he comes out on tuesday, and is so different that the Phillies can't adjust
A few things starting to go our way would be very nice
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Ace?
Aug 21, 2023 14:42:55 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 21, 2023 14:42:55 GMT -5
I'm glad they're calling Harrison up, but he's definitely got command issues, I hope those get ironed out with time. He'll likely be better than most our starters, but he won't be Tim Lincecum or Madison Bumgarner, and probably not Matt Cain either.
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Ace?
Aug 21, 2023 16:18:08 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 21, 2023 16:18:08 GMT -5
I'm glad they're calling Harrison up, but he's definitely got command issues, I hope those get ironed out with time. He'll likely be better than most our starters, but he won't be Tim Lincecum or Madison Bumgarner, and probably not Matt Cain either. I am concerned about command, also but it might be due to the ABS system with the very tight strike zone. No walks in last two starts with human ump behind the plate. He may not be Lincecum, Cain, or Bum but he is currently the highest rated lefty starter in all of the minors so he should be better than all of the guys not named Webb or Cobb. Harrison's start tomorrow is highly anticipated much like Lincecum's first MLB start, also against the Phillies 16 years ago. He will not be used as a bulk or featured pitcher in those opener games and not come into a pre-existing game. HIs pitch count will determine how deep he goes into a game, and I am thinking it will be around 60 pitches initially.
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Ace?
Aug 21, 2023 19:31:21 GMT -5
Post by pachyderm on Aug 21, 2023 19:31:21 GMT -5
No aces. Bunch of jokers.
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Ace?
Aug 23, 2023 9:32:58 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 23, 2023 9:32:58 GMT -5
I'm glad they're calling Harrison up, but he's definitely got command issues, I hope those get ironed out with time. He'll likely be better than most our starters, but he won't be Tim Lincecum or Madison Bumgarner, and probably not Matt Cain either. Harrison committed one walk yesterday so he probably has some issues with the ABS. The slider was hittable and Krukow felt that if he makes some slight adjustments to his grip, it is fixable. Krukow also mentioned that Philly likes to mess with the height of the pitchers mound in the bullpen and in the field as much as an inch difference. He is guessing it might have given Doval problems yesterday night.
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Ace?
Aug 23, 2023 10:08:50 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 23, 2023 10:08:50 GMT -5
Very much so, Reed. I totally agree.
So many of what he threw were flat and just loping up there.
Then again, I know from experience that when you have too much adrenaline pumping, like he undoubtedly had, you lose the feel for all breaking stuff.
Still, a very nice 1st outting.
I remember Timmy's first outting.
And even though he got roughed up a bit, you could SEE the stuff would play.
IMHO, Harrison NEEDS a change up, or some off speed pitch to make his fastball look even better.
I LOVED the way he stayed UP in the strike zone!
That's what I keep saying Webb and Cobb need to do more often
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Ace?
Aug 23, 2023 10:16:46 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 23, 2023 10:16:46 GMT -5
Boly: IMHO, Harrison NEEDS a change up, or some off speed pitch to make his fastball look even better.
He has a change up and hopefully coaches and teammates will work with him on it as well as work on the grip with the slider.
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Ace?
Aug 23, 2023 16:10:43 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 23, 2023 16:10:43 GMT -5
Good catch, Reed. I didn't say what I meant to say. You are right; he has a change up... that he almost never uses.
I SHOULD HAVE SAID, he needs to develop that change and use it more.
That will come with time, I believe.
Very mature kid, and with that release point, as Bailey pointed out post game, his fast ball plays well.
Bum, Lincecum and Cain needed to develop stuff, too, and they all did.
Too bad about Timmy. He should have had a longer career.
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Ace?
Aug 23, 2023 16:29:53 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 23, 2023 16:29:53 GMT -5
There was a discussion about Timmy today and they said the organization rushed him through the minors because they felt he was going to have a short career. Sadly, with that violent motion of his, that was proven correct.
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Ace?
Aug 23, 2023 21:13:24 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 23, 2023 21:13:24 GMT -5
He's one of many hurdles that had a violent motion, but if you were on the board, you remember he constantly being the point that his stride was so long, it put incredible stress on his elbow and shoulder.
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 24, 2023 2:03:36 GMT -5
I'd take what Tim did for us over what any Giant pitcher in my lifetime did for us. The organization and fans owe him the respect he deserves and his legacy immortalized at the park. It's time they retire his number, it wouldn't feel right if anyone else wore it. I wouldn't be opposed to a statue either.
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Ace?
Aug 24, 2023 3:56:35 GMT -5
Post by pachyderm on Aug 24, 2023 3:56:35 GMT -5
Ohtani has a tear in his elbow... torn UCL... so we dodged a bullet on that one... Doesn't change the fact that we need pitching help...
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Post by reedonly on Aug 24, 2023 8:00:07 GMT -5
Ohtani has a tear in his elbow... torn UCL... so we dodged a bullet on that one... Doesn't change the fact that we need pitching help... The Angels were really pushing him hard after the trade deadline. Ohtani answered the bell every time but it is really demanding on the body to pitch in the rotation and go out on the field every day. Unfortunate for Ohtani and the Giants are being careful with their own unicorns Crawford and Eldridge and they will probably only use them as two way players in case of emergency. Ohtani is really cognizant about promoting his brand so it might have contributed to him pushing too hard in August, especially with the big contract negotiations looming. Boly and I felt he would not be a two way player for too long and, in fact, two weeks ago Boly predicted he would blow out his arm. This might be a blessing in disguise for the Giants and for Ohtani and we might not be wrong in thinking that FZ just breathed a sigh of relief. The Giants can still go after Ohtani but not have to make a $600 million bid. They still need pitching and since the FA market is strong in starting pitching, it would be prudent to pay attention to starting pitching first.
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 24, 2023 8:22:20 GMT -5
I'd take what Tim did for us over what any Giant pitcher in my lifetime did for us. The organization and fans owe him the respect he deserves and his legacy immortalized at the park. It's time they retire his number, it wouldn't feel right if anyone else wore it. I wouldn't be opposed to a statue either. Absolutely and totally and completely agree with you!
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 24, 2023 8:25:04 GMT -5
Ohtani has a tear in his elbow... torn UCL... so we dodged a bullet on that one... Doesn't change the fact that we need pitching help... The Angels were really pushing him hard after the trade deadline. Ohtani answered the bell every time but it is really demanding on the body to pitch in the rotation and go out on the field every day. Unfortunate for Ohtani and the Giants are being careful with their own unicorns Crawford and Eldridge and they will probably only use them as two way players in case of emergency. Ohtani is really cognizant about promoting his brand so it might have contributed to him pushing too hard in August, especially with the big contract negotiations looming. Boly and I felt he would not be a two way player for too long and, in fact, two weeks ago Boly predicted he would blow out his arm. This might be a blessing in disguise for the Giants and for Ohtani and we might not be wrong in thinking that FZ just breathed a sigh of relief. The Giants can still go after Ohtani but not have to make a $600 million bid. They still need pitching and since the FA market is strong in starting pitching, it would be prudent to pay attention to starting pitching first. Giant leadership paying attention??🤣🤪😝 surely you jest!
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Ace?
Aug 24, 2023 9:04:16 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 24, 2023 9:04:16 GMT -5
I'd take what Tim did for us over what any Giant pitcher in my lifetime did for us. The organization and fans owe him the respect he deserves and his legacy immortalized at the park. It's time they retire his number, it wouldn't feel right if anyone else wore it. I wouldn't be opposed to a statue either. 55, 28, 40,and 15 have not been reused since they left so they probably will retire those numbers. 18 (Cain) has already been used by 6 players (Ruf, LaStella, DeJong, Joe) so I'm thinking that they will not retire that number. They are in a bit of a bind with the statues. They are running out of places to put any future statues without them cluttering up the area. I think they probably should not have put up Gaylord's in 2016 without accounting for the championship run. Cepeda was one of my favorites on the Giants when I was a youngster but I'm on the fence about whether or not he deserves his statue. You can't take those things down but not they have to start thinking about Buster, Mad Bum, and Timmy. There are a number of ways they honor legacy players. One is on the Wall of Fame, which probably is on the lowest tier and they will honor the championship run on there at some point. Recently, they honored Pence. The next level is the retired number. In the past they've waited for players to get into the HOF before they retire the number but they've recently added Barry Bonds and Will Clark. The highest tier is the statue. Mays, McCovey, and Marichal definitely deserve theirs. The problem comes after that. I'm not sure if Perry and Cepeda deserves theirs ahead of the championship run. Since the statues seem to be exclusive to the San Francisco Giants, Christy Matthewson, Mel Ott, Lefty O'doul, Joe Dimaggio, and Monte Irvin probably don't get theirs in San Francisco. They've already got statues on the four corners of the park and Willie McCovey on McCovey Cove so I'm hoping to someday see Buster, Mad Bum Timmy, and Cain on the portwalk.
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Ace?
Aug 24, 2023 10:03:15 GMT -5
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pachyderm likes this
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 24, 2023 10:03:15 GMT -5
Bochy and Posey's numbers will be retired when they get into the HoF. But the others you mentioned should have their numbers retired and/or get some sort of statue. Matt Cain's perfect game should have some sort of statue. On the base of the statue they could have a plaque listing the no hitters and perfect games. Then of course the 2010 Championship should be immortalized with a statue of Timmy holding up his finger on top of the pile.
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Ace?
Aug 24, 2023 12:27:08 GMT -5
Post by reedonly on Aug 24, 2023 12:27:08 GMT -5
The Angels were really pushing him hard after the trade deadline. Ohtani answered the bell every time but it is really demanding on the body to pitch in the rotation and go out on the field every day. Unfortunate for Ohtani and the Giants are being careful with their own unicorns Crawford and Eldridge and they will probably only use them as two way players in case of emergency. Ohtani is really cognizant about promoting his brand so it might have contributed to him pushing too hard in August, especially with the big contract negotiations looming. Boly and I felt he would not be a two way player for too long and, in fact, two weeks ago Boly predicted he would blow out his arm. This might be a blessing in disguise for the Giants and for Ohtani and we might not be wrong in thinking that FZ just breathed a sigh of relief. The Giants can still go after Ohtani but not have to make a $600 million bid. They still need pitching and since the FA market is strong in starting pitching, it would be prudent to pay attention to starting pitching first. Giant leadership paying attention??🤣🤪😝 surely you jest! With Ohtani off the market as a pitcher, the price for starting pitching just went up, particularly for Urias (Scott Boras client).
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Ace?
Aug 24, 2023 13:49:14 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Aug 24, 2023 13:49:14 GMT -5
I'd take what Tim did for us over what any Giant pitcher in my lifetime did for us. The organization and fans owe him the respect he deserves and his legacy immortalized at the park. It's time they retire his number, it wouldn't feel right if anyone else wore it. I wouldn't be opposed to a statue either. 55, 28, 40,and 15 have not been reused since they left so they probably will retire those numbers. 18 (Cain) has already been used by 6 players (Ruf, LaStella, DeJong, Joe) so I'm thinking that they will not retire that number. They are in a bit of a bind with the statues. They are running out of places to put any future statues without them cluttering up the area. I think they probably should not have put up Gaylord's in 2016 without accounting for the championship run. Cepeda was one of my favorites on the Giants when I was a youngster but I'm on the fence about whether or not he deserves his statue. You can't take those things down but not they have to start thinking about Buster, Mad Bum, and Timmy. There are a number of ways they honor legacy players. One is on the Wall of Fame, which probably is on the lowest tier and they will honor the championship run on there at some point. Recently, they honored Pence. The next level is the retired number. In the past they've waited for players to get into the HOF before they retire the number but they've recently added Barry Bonds and Will Clark. The highest tier is the statue. Mays, McCovey, and Marichal definitely deserve theirs. The problem comes after that. I'm not sure if Perry and Cepeda deserves theirs ahead of the championship run. Since the statues seem to be exclusive to the San Francisco Giants, Christy Matthewson, Mel Ott, Lefty O'doul, Joe Dimaggio, and Monte Irvin probably don't get theirs in San Francisco. They've already got statues on the four corners of the park and Willie McCovey on McCovey Cove so I'm hoping to someday see Buster, Mad Bum Timmy, and Cain on the portwalk. Reed, for me, there is no question: BOTH Perry and Cepeda deserve statues.
It was Cepeda and NOT Mays who became the fan favorite in 1958.
For a couple of years, he was the face of the franchise until FINALLY, SF realized what they had playing for them.
I can see statues for Buster, NO QUESTION, and Bum... but I'm not sure Timmy had a long enough run with us to deserve one.
For a very short time, no one was better... but that time was so short; really just 4 years.
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