Ace?

[reedonly]

Aug 24, 2023 8:25:04 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Aug 24, 2023 8:00:07 GMT -5 reedonly said:

The Angels were really pushing him hard after the trade deadline.  Ohtani answered the bell every time but it is really demanding on the body to pitch in the rotation and go out on the field every day.  Unfortunate for Ohtani and the Giants are being careful with their own unicorns Crawford and Eldridge and they will probably only use them as two way players in case of emergency.  Ohtani is really cognizant about promoting his brand so it might have contributed to him pushing too hard in August, especially with the big contract negotiations looming.  Boly and I felt he would not be a two way player for too long and, in fact, two weeks ago Boly predicted he would blow out his arm.  This might be a blessing in disguise for the Giants and for Ohtani and we might not be wrong in thinking that FZ just breathed a sigh of relief.  The Giants can still go after Ohtani but not have to make a $600 million bid.  They still need pitching and since the FA market is strong in starting pitching, it would be prudent to pay attention to starting pitching first. 

Giant leadership paying attention??🤣🤪😝 surely you jest!

Now this gets more complicated for Ohtani.  If he elects to go with Tommy John, he will not be able to pitch until 2025 and he would need at least until late 2024 to be able to play in the field.  He did hit in the second game of the doubleheader yesterday and went 1 for 5.  The speculation is that he will either do a short term placeholder deal for 2024 and 2025 or have an opt out after one or two years.  If he's going up to the plate, the injury might be as bad but if he does a second Tommy John, the prognosis is not going to be as good because anchoring bone is not as strong and blood supply to injured area is not as great.  If I'm FZ, I would see what Ohtani wants.  If he's disabled for more than half a year or if he has to go through TJ, I would pass.  If he can still hit or is somehow able to field, then they can see where the bidding is at and go from there but I would be really careful not to get carried away in bidding on possibly damaged goods. 

[pachyderm]

Aug 24, 2023 2:03:36 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'd take what Tim did for us over what any Giant pitcher in my lifetime did for us. The organization and fans owe him the respect he deserves and his legacy immortalized at the park. It's time they retire his number, it wouldn't feel right if anyone else wore it. I wouldn't be opposed to a statue either.

He was the lead domino in the WS titles... 

[reedonly]

Aug 24, 2023 13:49:14 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Aug 24, 2023 9:04:16 GMT -5 reedonly said:

55, 28, 40,and 15 have not been reused since they left so they probably will retire those numbers.  18 (Cain) has already been used by 6 players (Ruf, LaStella, DeJong, Joe) so I'm thinking that they will not retire that number.  

They are in a bit of a bind with the statues.  They are running out of places to put any future statues without them cluttering up the area.   I think they probably should not have put up Gaylord's in 2016 without accounting for the championship run.  Cepeda was one of my favorites on the Giants when I was a youngster but I'm on the fence about whether or not he deserves his statue.  You can't take those things down but not they have to start thinking about Buster, Mad Bum, and Timmy.  

There are a number of ways they honor legacy players.  One is on the Wall of Fame, which probably is on the lowest tier and they will honor the championship run on there at some point.  Recently, they honored Pence. The next level is the retired number.  In the past they've waited for players to get into the HOF before they retire the number but they've recently added Barry Bonds and Will Clark.  The highest tier is the statue. Mays, McCovey, and Marichal definitely deserve theirs.  The problem comes after that.  I'm not sure if Perry and Cepeda deserves theirs ahead of the championship run.  Since the statues seem to be exclusive to the San Francisco Giants, Christy Matthewson, Mel Ott, Lefty O'doul, Joe Dimaggio, and Monte Irvin probably don't get theirs in San Francisco.  They've already got statues on the four corners of the park and Willie McCovey on McCovey Cove so I'm hoping to someday see Buster, Mad Bum Timmy, and Cain on the portwalk.

Reed, for me, there is no question: BOTH Perry and Cepeda deserve statues.

It was Cepeda and NOT Mays who became the fan favorite in 1958.

For a couple of years, he was the face of the franchise until FINALLY, SF realized what they had playing for them.

I can see statues for Buster, NO QUESTION, and Bum... but I'm not sure Timmy had a long enough run with us to deserve one.

For a very short time, no one was better... but that time was so short; really just 4 years.

The Cardinals have 12 statues and they put most of them in front of the gift shop.  I would leave Mays' as the only one at the main entrance so if they choose to put up more, it would have to be the portwalk.  I am not advocating taking any of them down.  The Perry statue sets a bar for what the quality of accomplishment is and its important not to make it really cluttered like St Louis did and not to put it inside the museum like the Yankees have done.  My provision is that they do it while the honoree is alive and provide the statue enough space to make it worthwhile and important. 

[klaiggeb]

Aug 24, 2023 15:20:03 GMT -5 pachyderm said:

Aug 24, 2023 2:03:36 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'd take what Tim did for us over what any Giant pitcher in my lifetime did for us. The organization and fans owe him the respect he deserves and his legacy immortalized at the park. It's time they retire his number, it wouldn't feel right if anyone else wore it. I wouldn't be opposed to a statue either.

He was the lead domino in the WS titles... 

I am not questioning his value in his four top ears, but honestly to earn a statue, you need more than 4 years.

[Islandboagie]

With all due respect, Boly, I couldn't disagree more.

Tim was a part of 3 Championships, and a big part of 2. He had 2 Cy Youngs and 2 no-hitters. He gave San Francisco more to cheer about than Perry, Marichal, Mays and McCovey combined. With those guys, every single season ended in disappointment, and many ended in seeing the Dodgers better the Giants.

Tim, Matt, Buster, Madison and Pablo gave us 3 seasons where Dodgers fans had to watch the Giants hoist the World Series trophy. 3 times in 5 years, they had to watch us be crowned Champions. I'll take that all day over a 20 year career of let downs and disappointments.

[Islandboagie]

To further my point, Boly. When Dodgers fans come to our park, they should have to be reminded of those 3 Championships wherever they look. Those reminders should be plastered all over Oracle park, for us to enjoy, and for Dodgers fans to cringe at.

[pachyderm]

Aug 25, 2023 0:47:59 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

With all due respect, Boly, I couldn't disagree more.

Tim was a part of 3 Championships, and a big part of 2. He had 2 Cy Youngs and 2 no-hitters. He gave San Francisco more to cheer about than Perry, Marichal, Mays and McCovey combined. With those guys, every single season ended in disappointment, and many ended in seeing the Dodgers better the Giants.

Tim, Matt, Buster, Madison and Pablo gave us 3 seasons where Dodgers fans had to watch the Giants hoist the World Series trophy. 3 times in 5 years, they had to watch us be crowned Champions. I'll take that all day over a 20 year career of let downs and disappointments.

Hang on, Willie Mays & the New York Giants had some great moments. 

But yeah, up until then our tenure in SF hasn't been incredibly spectacular.  

[reedonly]

Aug 25, 2023 0:47:59 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

With all due respect, Boly, I couldn't disagree more.

Tim was a part of 3 Championships, and a big part of 2. He had 2 Cy Youngs and 2 no-hitters. He gave San Francisco more to cheer about than Perry, Marichal, Mays and McCovey combined. With those guys, every single season ended in disappointment, and many ended in seeing the Dodgers better the Giants.

Tim, Matt, Buster, Madison and Pablo gave us 3 seasons where Dodgers fans had to watch the Giants hoist the World Series trophy. 3 times in 5 years, they had to watch us be crowned Champions. I'll take that all day over a 20 year career of let downs and disappointments.

Maybe things will happen with Buster as part of the ownership group.  I have no problem with whatever they decide.  

[klaiggeb]

Aug 25, 2023 0:47:59 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

With all due respect, Boly, I couldn't disagree more.

Tim was a part of 3 Championships, and a big part of 2. He had 2 Cy Youngs and 2 no-hitters. He gave San Francisco more to cheer about than Perry, Marichal, Mays and McCovey combined. With those guys, every single season ended in disappointment, and many ended in seeing the Dodgers better the Giants.

Tim, Matt, Buster, Madison and Pablo gave us 3 seasons where Dodgers fans had to watch the Giants hoist the World Series trophy. 3 times in 5 years, they had to watch us be crowned Champions. I'll take that all day over a 20 year career of let downs and disappointments.

You make a good point, boagie. For those 4 years, IMHO, if he wasn't the best pitcher in the NL, he was close.

But you are UNDERPLAYING the excitement Mays, and McCovey generated during their time as Giants, because unless you were there you can't imagine the excitement they generated for this team.

the fact that they didn't bring any championships, is, IMHO, absolutely moot when it comes to what Giant fans had to cheer about, because those guys were ALL Giant fans had to cheer about.

Perry did not ever generate the excitement of Marichal, Mays and McCovey. Not ever.


I'll go one step further in support of your case:

Timmy is the 2nd best San Francisco Giant pitcher I have ever seen. Only Marichal was better.

That alone deserves recognition.

[reedonly]

Aug 23, 2023 9:32:58 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Aug 21, 2023 14:42:55 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'm glad they're calling Harrison up, but he's definitely got command issues, I hope those get ironed out with time. He'll likely be better than most our starters, but he won't be Tim Lincecum or Madison Bumgarner, and probably not Matt Cain either.

Harrison committed one walk yesterday so he probably has some issues with the ABS.   The slider was hittable and Krukow felt that if he makes some slight adjustments to his grip, it is fixable. 

Krukow also mentioned that Philly likes to mess with the height of the pitchers mound in the bullpen and in the field as much as an inch difference.  He is guessing it might have given Doval problems yesterday night. 

Krukow said Doval has some arm fatigue because the release point is too low.  He has a low hand position where he is slinging the ball.  

[reedonly]

boly: Timmy is the 2nd best San Francisco Giant pitcher I have ever seen. Only Marichal was better.

The last game of the 2005 season, the Giants lost to the Diamondbacks and it switched their draft positions for the 2006 draft costing the Dbacks the #10 draft position. This allowed the Giants to draft Lincecum and the rest is history. The Diamondbacks did not do too shabbily themselves because at #11, they drafted Max Scherzer. Scherzer did not get off to a good start with the Dbacks. He had a violent delivery and with Boras as his agent, they negotiated a 4y/$4mm contract. He eventually got traded to the Tigers as part of a deal to get Ian Kennedy and Edwin Jackson and then he became Max Scherzer. I'm not sure how it would have played out if the Giants had actually won that last game in 2005 or if with reversed draft positions that the Diamondbacks would have still drafted Scherzer or gone after Lincecum. Sometimes, a hinge point in history arises from a trivial thing, this being the loss in 2005.

One of my co-workers is a Dbacks fan and I remember getting mocked for that loss in 2005. We got the last laugh.

[Islandboagie]

Boly- But you are UNDERPLAYING the excitement Mays, and McCovey generated during their time as Giants, because unless you were there you can't imagine the excitement they generated for this team.

Boagie- That's a fair argument but I'm not trying to take anything away from those guys, they are San Francisco legends. And you're right, I did not see them play. Although I did see Mays in an old timers game in the late 80's, but that hardly counts. While I didn't see them play, I have always admired them as Giant greats.

I also admired Will Clark, Matt Williams and Barry Bonds. Will was my hero when I was growing up. I loved all those guys, and they generated a lot of excitement for me. But nowhere near the excitement I felt during the Lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner era.

Mays, McCovey and Marichal have their place in history. All I'm saying is Timmy and the others deserve theirs too.

[reedonly]

Aug 24, 2023 13:49:14 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Aug 24, 2023 9:04:16 GMT -5 reedonly said:

55, 28, 40,and 15 have not been reused since they left so they probably will retire those numbers.  18 (Cain) has already been used by 6 players (Ruf, LaStella, DeJong, Joe) so I'm thinking that they will not retire that number.  

They are in a bit of a bind with the statues.  They are running out of places to put any future statues without them cluttering up the area.   I think they probably should not have put up Gaylord's in 2016 without accounting for the championship run.  Cepeda was one of my favorites on the Giants when I was a youngster but I'm on the fence about whether or not he deserves his statue.  You can't take those things down but not they have to start thinking about Buster, Mad Bum, and Timmy.  

There are a number of ways they honor legacy players.  One is on the Wall of Fame, which probably is on the lowest tier and they will honor the championship run on there at some point.  Recently, they honored Pence. The next level is the retired number.  In the past they've waited for players to get into the HOF before they retire the number but they've recently added Barry Bonds and Will Clark.  The highest tier is the statue. Mays, McCovey, and Marichal definitely deserve theirs.  The problem comes after that.  I'm not sure if Perry and Cepeda deserves theirs ahead of the championship run.  Since the statues seem to be exclusive to the San Francisco Giants, Christy Matthewson, Mel Ott, Lefty O'doul, Joe Dimaggio, and Monte Irvin probably don't get theirs in San Francisco.  They've already got statues on the four corners of the park and Willie McCovey on McCovey Cove so I'm hoping to someday see Buster, Mad Bum Timmy, and Cain on the portwalk.

Reed, for me, there is no question: BOTH Perry and Cepeda deserve statues.

It was Cepeda and NOT Mays who became the fan favorite in 1958.

For a couple of years, he was the face of the franchise until FINALLY, SF realized what they had playing for them.

I can see statues for Buster, NO QUESTION, and Bum... but I'm not sure Timmy had a long enough run with us to deserve one.

For a very short time, no one was better... but that time was so short; really just 4 years.

Cepeda was the fan favorite player at the beginning because he broke in with San Francisco so he wasn't considered a New York transplant.  Mays was actually booed in the early days because the fans thought he was usurping the legacy of local hero Joe DiMaggio and because he was a transplant from the New York Giants.  Alvin Dark and the Giants brass did him no favors because they always thought he was dogging it even though he was playing with injuries.  The things that make the statue a little murky are the things that kept him out of the HOF all those years, namely the arrests for drug trafficking and for pointing a gun at someone.  I'm not sure if the gun charge was real or not bur it was clear he got into trouble with the mafia.  

Gaylord's statue I have had trouble with.  For the Giants, he only had two seasons in which he was really dominant (1966,1970).  He pitched a lot of innings, won a lot of games, but he also lost a lot of games.  In his years with the Giants where he was not dominating, he was a little bit better than a .500 pitcher (and that's with a team that had Mays, McCovey, and Cepeda).  A lot of his HOF resume came after he was traded by the Giants, not during his Giants tenure.  I am not one who wants to kick people out of the HOF, un-retire numbers or take down statues but Perry's statue sets a low bar.  Timmy had four ace seasons, Perry had two ace seasons with the Giants, and maybe some of them with his secret pitch.  I guess I'm a little biased against Gaylord because he always lost when I saw him in person and he never truly established himself as an ace with the Giants (he ranks 6th all-time in career losses).  Marichal was always the ace and the one year Perry was the best pitcher on the Giants, he lost 17 games and Mccormick won the Cy.  

[klaiggeb]

I always thought they gave Perry a statue because he was a HOF. Nothing more. So basically, I agree with you about him.