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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 4, 2021 10:11:35 GMT -5
As I posted multiple times back in August and September, this move didn't and doesn't surprise me at all.
Posey, like all of us should be, is a family man first, his career second.
I admire his decision more than I can find words to express.
His receiving may have been awkward at times, behind the plate, but that's because he didn't grow up being a catcher.
But he got the job done!
Wasn't always pretty, but who the heck cares!
As a receiver, he was outstanding!
I will remember him for his leadership; for his ability to control the game, and the way he guided every pitcher he caught, especially the kids, throughout the game.
He might not have been one of my all time favorite players, but that diminishes nothing from what he accomplished and did for the Giants.
And I will never, EVER forget his home run against that arrogant jackass, Matt Latos of the Reds in that playoff game!
THAT was a special moment.
He is a special man; an honorable man in an age where honor is often considered a weakness.
For me, honor will never be a weakness. It is a strength to be encouraged and passed on to everyone around you.
I tip my cap to your, Buster. I tip my hat to you.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 4, 2021 15:36:13 GMT -5
Buster is one of the best combinations of player and person in all of Giants history.
One thing that came out that I had forgotten about is all the concussions Buster has suffered. As far as I know, he suffered his first while still playing for San Jose when he got hit in the head with a pitch and missed a week or 10 days. Catchers are simply horribly vulnerable to foul tips.
The Giants could probably use a better backup catcher now, since Joey Bart isn't proven. Most teams actually need TWO good catchers these days, and Patrick Bailey seems to be at least a couple of years away. It would be nice to find a lefty-hitting backup.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 4, 2021 19:14:29 GMT -5
I tend to agree, Rog. Casali was exposed by catching every third game behind Posey, it's likely whoever splits time with Bart behind the plate will end up catching at least as much as Casali did last year, if not more. I also agree that it would be nice if that backup catcher batted left-handed. At very least, they need a catcher who can somewhat stop the running game and/or be a decent bat off the bench, which we didn't have with Casali last season.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 4, 2021 20:57:06 GMT -5
I think the Giants were satisfied with Casali defensively. They seemed to think he handled the pitching staff, and his 2.72 catcher's ERA was 0.85 runs lower than Buster's, seeming to back that point up. He wasn't as good as Buster at throwing out runners, but his 23% catch rate was only 2% below the league average of 25%.
But he hit only .210, and his career average is even worse at .210. Even worse, his expected batting average was just .199. Casali went only 1 for 13 as a pinch hitter.
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Post by reedonly on Nov 5, 2021 1:24:43 GMT -5
The Giants technically do not have to pay Buster his buyout clause but negotiating the money into his next future role, whatever that may be.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 5, 2021 8:58:56 GMT -5
Makes sense. The Giants didn't choose to buy Buster out. He chose to retire.
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Post by reedonly on Nov 5, 2021 12:34:35 GMT -5
That means he's likely to stay with the Giants in some capacity. Hopefully for as long as he wants.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 5, 2021 13:31:15 GMT -5
I can't say that I ADMIRE Buster's decision to retire, but I certainly respect it. If he were hurting the team and had retired to save the team money, I would have admired the decision. But Buster made the decision for personal reasons, and I respect those personal reasons, just as I respect the man.
I can't think of a Giants player since Christy Mathewson whose combination of ability and as Boly said, honor, was greater than Buster's. By retiring "early," Buster might have cost himself a place in the Hall of Fame, but I don't think so. He seems to have put up ENOUGH, and he's highly liked by those who will be voting.
Can you guys imagine my excitement when I first saw him catching fellow prospect Tim Alderson in a Cal League playoff game? And I enjoyed it even more seven months later when I saw him catch Madison Bumgarner for the first time in a regular season game. Now both players are on my all-time SF Giants team.
Let's hope Joey Bart can become SF's second-best catcher.
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Post by reedonly on Nov 5, 2021 15:15:14 GMT -5
The man has his priorities straight.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 5, 2021 18:55:22 GMT -5
he does, Reed, that he does.
That's why I said I admired what he did so very, very much!
He's not like so many pro athletes... constantly chasing the next multi-million dollar contract.
I mean, after a couple of years making 10 + Millions, how much money do you really need?
After that, IMHO, it's just ego and pride.
And the Lord frowns big time on that!
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Post by reedonly on Nov 6, 2021 2:20:00 GMT -5
Maybe that’s why Greinke and Harper never won a championship.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 6, 2021 8:52:36 GMT -5
Those two are great examples!
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 6, 2021 10:43:24 GMT -5
Rog-I can't think of a Giants player since Christy Mathewson whose combination of ability and as Boly said, honor, was greater than Buster's.
Boagie- Dave Dravecky and Hunter Pence. As much as I like Buster, I think Dave and Hunter were slightly more respected by everyone around them.
Dave carried himself as if he were on a mission from God, to the point where even an atheist would start believing. I was at the Dave Dravecky game in 1989, every pitch felt like Dave had a perfect game going. Of course Dave's comeback was short lived, but as far as honor goes, you don't get much better than Dave Dravecky.
Hunter's unbridled nature made everyone want to be a little more like Hunter. His attitude rubbed off on everyone, and of course his speeches during the 2012 post-season will be legendary in Giants lore. Even his last speech at the end of his tenure with the Giants gave everyone hope for the future.
Obviously Buster is very high on the list, as is Matt Cain, but I would put Hunter and Dave slightly ahead.
As favorite players go, that's a little different. On that list for me, Buster is tied for top spot.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 6, 2021 13:16:27 GMT -5
Rog-I can't think of a Giants player since Christy Mathewson whose combination of ability and as Boly said, honor, was greater than Buster's. Boagie- Dave Dravecky and Hunter Pence. As much as I like Buster, I think Dave and Hunter were slightly more respected by everyone around them. Dave carried himself as if he were on a mission from God, to the point where even an atheist would start believing. I was at the Dave Dravecky game in 1989, every pitch felt like Dave had a perfect game going. Of course Dave's comeback was short lived, but as far as honor goes, you don't get much better than Dave Dravecky. Hunter's unbridled nature made everyone want to be a little more like Hunter. His attitude rubbed off on everyone, and of course his speeches during the 2012 post-season will be legendary in Giants lore. Even his last speech at the end of his tenure with the Giants gave everyone hope for the future. Obviously Buster is very high on the list, as is Matt Cain, but I would put Hunter and Dave slightly ahead. As favorite players go, that's a little different. On that list for me, Buster is tied for top spot. Totally concur.
But I put Buster in a different category. When he was behind the plate, he controlled the game.
Hunter nor Dravecki played a position from where they could do that.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 13:19:03 GMT -5
I thought of Dave. Didn't even think of Hunter, although I should have. Those guys were up there with Buster in the honor department, but not ability.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 13:23:45 GMT -5
Buster is said to have made a killing by having gotten in on the floor of a sports drink that was just bought by Coke. He was said to have been the biggest athlete investor. He likely made eight figures on the deal and might even have been close to nine. Glad it happened to such a nice guy.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 6, 2021 15:13:51 GMT -5
You're right, Boly, Posey did catch and the others didn't. What Rog originally said isn't necessarily wrong, as far as pure impact on and off the field for a team Buster is among the best in the History of baseball, not just the Giants. I guess I just figured Hunter and Dave deserve some mention here just based on their character.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 15:35:15 GMT -5
I agree with you, Matt.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 19:11:15 GMT -5
Buster said at his retirement that one of the moments he remembers most was in game 7 of the World Series with Kansas City when the Giants brought in Madison Bumgarner and the crowd went silent, knowing the game was over. I think he misread the situation. We know the Giants better than the Royals fans do, and did any of us think the game was over?
I think it was a nice thing of Buster to say, but I don't think he read the situation right. My guess was that since it wasn't late in the game, the crowd was fairly silent expecting a long run to the finish line. But if we didn't know the game was over, how could they?
No question the Giants were in nice shape, since after Madison they had an excellent bullpen ready to go if needed, but the game certainly wasn't over. And no one knew how long Madison could go.
Madison had pitched in his career only once before in his career on three days' rest after a start. It came in the 2010 NLDS when he had pitched 4.2 innings three days before, then came in for two innings of so-so ball. He didn't give up a run, but he allowed three hits and a walk in just two innings. When Buster came in in 2014, he had thrown a 117-pitch complete game just three days before. A much tougher position than his previous instance, which was successful, but barely and for three innings less than he threw in 2014.
I think Buster's comment was a nice image. I think it was reflective of the confidence he had in Madison. But does anyone here truly believe the Royals fans knew the game was over?
Let's keep in mind that while Madison pitched masterfully, had Alex Gordon been running all out on the ball he hit with two outs, he might well have scored the tying run. It was one of the Giants' best wins ever, and I think it's great that Buster had so much confidence in Madison, but there was no way for anyone to know that the game was over -- let alone the Royals fans.
I've mentioned this before, but Jeremy Affeldt was also a big hero in that game. Jeremy entered the game with the Giants in a much tougher situation than when Madison entered. Jeremy entered with two outs, the game tied and the potential lead run for the Royals on second and with another runner on first. Jeremy got right out of the inning, then pitched two more shutout innings of one-hit ball, and left with the Giants leading 3-2. When Jeremy entered the game, the Royals were the likely winner. By the time Madison entered, the Giants were already the likely victor.
Madison pitched beautifully, but he benefited from a little luck early. He gave up a single to the first batter he faced. (Thank goodness Affeldt hadn't done the same!) Then with the right-handed hitting Alcides Escobar at the plate, Madison got what in retrospect seems a break, as Escobar sacrificed an out by bunting the runner to second base. That was even with the lefty-hitting Nori Aoki coming up next. Aoki almost made the strategy look good though, but Madison got another break when his line drive to left was caught. Madison finally found his footing and struck out right-handed hitting Lorenzo Cain for the third out, and he didn't allow another hit until two outs in the ninth inning.
Think if the Giants had brought in Madison instead of Affeldt and Madison had given up a hit to the first batter he faced. That likely would have given the Royals the lead and changed the complexion of the game dramatically. No question Madison pitched beautifully, had he come in with runners on base or if Escobar hadn't bunted, who knows?
There was simply no way to know for sure when Madison came in who would win the game. It was a nice statement by Buster on behalf of his teammate, but I don't believe it was factual. Buster assumed the Royals fans knew the game was over, and there was simply no way they could have known.
There's a reason they play nine innings.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 19:12:46 GMT -5
Actually, I believe Buster said for him it was God first, his family second, treating people well third -- and then baseball. Them's pretty good priorities!
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 19:16:40 GMT -5
One of Buster's best defensive skills, even early in his career, was pitch framing. With the soft hands he had developed at shortstop, he was something of a natural. I can't remember if Buster called his games in college, but he was plenty smart enough to. He was his high school's salutatorian, and one semester he earned a 4.0 average in his finance major.
Perhaps at least as important as those skills was that his teammates seemed to trust Buster immediately. That was especially important with his pitching staff. I believe it may have been Larry Baer who mentioned how diverse the 2010 staff was when Buster took it over.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 6, 2021 20:29:48 GMT -5
Rog- Buster said at his retirement that one of the moments he remembers most was in game 7 of the World Series with Kansas City when the Giants brought in Madison Bumgarner and the crowd went silent, knowing the game was over. I think he misread the situation. We know the Giants better than the Royals fans do, and did any of us think the game was over?
Boagie- You inadvertently answered your own question, Rog. We know the Giants better than they do. We've been witness to many crushing defeats when it should have been over.
The 2010, 2012 and 2014 Giants were different of course, but 2002 still lingers in the back of our minds. The educated fans know what the Merkle boner is..We're always waiting for that Jose Cruz Jr. moment. And of course new to the list is the bullpen implosion in 2016 and Wilmer's check swing this year. But hey, that's why 2010-2014 was so great. We have to try to take the defeats in stride. For me those last two would have hurt much more if the 3 Championships didn't happen. This year for example, once the Dodgers were ousted by the Braves I took comfort in knowing we still have 3 Championships since the Dodgers have won their last in 1988.
All the Royal fans knew was the guy who threw baseballs past Royal bats all series was on the mound, and it didn't look good for them.
Not many teams have the same history of epic chokes that we have had. The Cubs and Redsox are the only fans I know of that can relate to Giants fans in that regard.
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Post by reedonly on Nov 6, 2021 20:42:54 GMT -5
Most of the original 16 teams have a history of epic chokes, particularly Dodgers, Phillies, Indians, etc.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 6, 2021 21:46:53 GMT -5
I was trying to think of other teams that might have, Reed. Of the teams you mentioned, I cannot think of any time where they had the game won but gave it up. I mean during the regular season, sure, but like the Giants did in the 2002 World Series? Or the collapse of the bullpen in the 2016 NLDS? Maybe you can educate me.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 6, 2021 22:21:30 GMT -5
You're right, Boly, Posey did catch and the others didn't. What Rog originally said isn't necessarily wrong, as far as pure impact on and off the field for a team Buster is among the best in the History of baseball, not just the Giants. I guess I just figured Hunter and Dave deserve some mention here just based on their character. Boagie I did not see what Rodger wrote, Because I don't read any of his posts. I was only responding to what you wrote, and the fact that I do agree with you about Hunter Pence et.al.
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Post by reedonly on Nov 6, 2021 22:37:15 GMT -5
I was trying to think of other teams that might have, Reed. Of the teams you mentioned, I cannot think of any time where they had the game won but gave it up. I mean during the regular season, sure, but like the Giants did in the 2002 World Series? Or the collapse of the bullpen in the 2016 NLDS? Maybe you can educate me. Dodgers choked 1951, 1962 when they had it won but choked. Also Clayton Chokeshaw multiple times recently. Since 2000, Dodgers won NL west 11 times and only one (60 game season) ws champ. Phillies 1964. 1954 Indians. Cards 1968, 1985, 2012, Reds 2012, Braves 1993 and multiple playoff losses. I guess less in AL because of Yankee dominance but the Yankees choked a lot, too. Biggest underachievers in the expansion era have been the Braves by far. The worst choke was Yankees up 3-0 on the Red Sox and losing. 2002 is up there but it's one of many. When the Giants won the three WS, they swung to become one of the best overachievers in the expansion era. 2010 benefitted from Padres choke. 2012 was helped by Reds and Cards choking. 2014 was Dodgers choking. I guess we remember our own chokes more. The biggest individual choker might be ARod.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 7, 2021 11:05:04 GMT -5
I shouldn't have said "choke" Reed. That could be construed as any favorite getting beat by an underdog. I guess there are two kinds of chokes I was referring to. Choke #1 would be where you SHOULD win because on paper you're the superior team. Choke #2 is when you have a very important game in the bag and you just implode.
Many teams have experienced choke #1. The 90's Braves and up until this season the Dodgers won their division many times in a row, with very little to show for it. Many teams have been the favorite in a series, but ended up losing in the end. For example the Mariners tied a record for the most games ever won in 2001, they didn't lose a series all year, until they lost to the Yankees in the ALCS. Those must hurt for those teams. I did mention some of the same type of chokes in my other post.
Choke #2 hurts the worst, and makes you start to question curses, or not being favored by the baseball gods. Those are the instances I was highlighting with the Giants. Those were games in which they had a somewhat comfortable lead and then imploded. Like in the 6th game of the 2002 World Series..after that game I was convinced I would never see them win a World Series. Much like how the Cubs fans probably felt after the Bartman game, or the Redsox fans felt after Bill Buckner let that ball go through his legs. These are instances where it leaves you completely gut punched and they make you question comfortable leads in the future, and of course those are often compiled on top of choke #1's.
Now, I don't believe in curses entirely, especially since the Giants, Cubs and Redsox have all won Championships after nearly losing all hope. But having experienced those moments does definitely leave a doubt in our mind that no lead is too big.
Remember, this was in response to Rog's post about the 7th game in 2014...During that moment I was thinking Madison Bumgarner was clutch and wouldn't blow it, but after Blanco misplayed that ball in left-center, images of 2002 crept up in my mind. Doubt starting taking over. Without that 2002 meltdown being tattooed on my brain I think I would have more faith. It was easy to draw a correlation, the Giants bullpen in 2002 was pretty automatic up until that point, and the circumstances were similar. So with all that in mind, and in response to Rog's comment about Royals fans being oddly quiet, I can say with certainty that Salvator Perez's at bat was more agonizing for me, than it was hopeful for the Royals, but I seriously doubt they were that quiet. It speaks volumes to just how inhuman Madison was during that post-season, and how calm and cool Buster was as a catcher. I could hardly function for 24 hours after that 9th inning. Buster's main takeaway from that excruciatingly painful event for me, was that the Royals fans were quiet. I can't say Buster is wrong, to him and Madison they probably were quiet.
That's what Sabremetrics cannot measure, being relaxed in those situations. We had a handful of players that wanted the bat or the ball in those situations, that's why we won three Championships. Sabean was good at finding those types of players, and Bochy was great at grooming them for those moments. People who cannot understand that because it can't be calculated with equations, just chalk it up to luck.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 7, 2021 12:19:54 GMT -5
That's what Sabremetrics cannot measure, being relaxed in those situations. We had a handful of players that wanted the bat or the ball in those situations, that's why we won three Championships. Sabean was good at finding those types of players, and Bochy was great at grooming them for those moments. People who cannot understand that because it can't be calculated with equations, just chalk it up to luck. Bingo! You nailed it with that statement, boagie!
You flat out NAILED IT!
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Post by reedonly on Nov 7, 2021 12:51:17 GMT -5
Got it. Understand where you are coming from. I’ve read that 2002 was the 8th worst of all time. To be honest, I almost had a heart attack in 2014 when Blanco misplayed that ball. That one wasn’t secure until Pablo caught that.
There’s a lot of factors in what makes these curses worse than others. The weight for us was lifted in 2010. I guess that was what made 2002 sting the most, more than a 107 win team going down. I didn’t put it all on the Flores at bat as much as the Spezio home run. It’s worse when your team hasn’t won it in a while or if you were way ahead and then choked it . In recent years, the 49ers super bowl is the worst and 3-1 Warriors was bad but I have more of an attachment to the Giants.
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Post by reedonly on Nov 7, 2021 13:09:05 GMT -5
Sabean’s group probably whiffed on Beede, Bickford , etc No way those two are mentally tough as Cain. Beede is boly’s poster child for head case. Those were two thin drafts and you can’t blame them for passing on Buehler (tj).
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