Posey's Retirement

[reedonly]

What is tricky is that when you ask a player if they want it, everyone will say yes because they are afraid of looking weak. Kershaw probably said yes, Roberts trusted him but inside he had a history of choking. A good manager has a better sense of who to go to and who really wants it versus who is just giving the answer the manager wants to hear.

[Islandboagie]

Absolutely, Reed. That's why Bochy was great at grooming these guys. By the post-season he knew who he could rely on and who he couldn't. Kapler didn't groom our pitching staff nearly as good this season, and it showed in the post-season, hopefully he'll learn.

[reedonly]

Nov 7, 2021 11:05:04 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I shouldn't have said "choke" Reed. That could be construed as any favorite getting beat by an underdog. I guess there are two kinds of chokes I was referring to. Choke #1 would be where you SHOULD win because on paper you're the superior team. Choke #2 is when you have a very important game in the bag and you just implode.

Many teams have experienced choke #1. The 90's Braves and up until this season the Dodgers won their division many times in a row, with very little to show for it. Many teams have been the favorite in a series, but ended up losing in the end. For example the Mariners tied a record for the most games ever won in 2001, they didn't lose a series all year, until they lost to the Yankees in the ALCS. Those must hurt for those teams. I did mention some of the same type of chokes in my other post.

Choke #2 hurts the worst, and makes you start to question curses, or not being favored by the baseball gods. Those are the instances I was highlighting with the Giants. Those were games in which they had a somewhat comfortable lead and then imploded. Like in the 6th game of the 2002 World Series..after that game I was convinced I would never see them win a World Series. Much like how the Cubs fans probably felt after the Bartman game, or the Redsox fans felt after Bill Buckner let that ball go through his legs. These are instances where it leaves you completely gut punched and they make you question comfortable leads in the future, and of course those are often compiled on top of choke #1's.

Now, I don't believe in curses entirely, especially since the Giants, Cubs and Redsox have all won Championships after nearly losing all hope. But having experienced those moments does definitely leave a doubt in our mind that no lead is too big.

Remember, this was in response to Rog's post about the 7th game in 2014...During that moment I was thinking Madison Bumgarner was clutch and wouldn't blow it, but after Blanco misplayed that ball in left-center, images of 2002 crept up in my mind. Doubt starting taking over. Without that 2002 meltdown being tattooed on my brain I think I would have more faith. It was easy to draw a correlation, the Giants bullpen in 2002 was pretty automatic up until that point, and the circumstances were similar. So with all that in mind, and in response to Rog's comment about Royals fans being oddly quiet, I can say with certainty that Salvator Perez's at bat was more agonizing for me, than it was hopeful for the Royals, but I seriously doubt they were that quiet. It speaks volumes to just how inhuman Madison was during that post-season, and how calm and cool Buster was as a catcher. I could hardly function for 24 hours after that 9th inning. Buster's main takeaway from that excruciatingly painful event for me, was that the Royals fans were quiet. I can't say Buster is wrong, to him and Madison they probably were quiet.

That's what Sabremetrics cannot measure, being relaxed in those situations. We had a handful of players that wanted the bat or the ball in those situations, that's why we won three Championships. Sabean was good at finding those types of players, and Bochy was great at grooming them for those moments. People who cannot understand that because it can't be calculated with equations, just chalk it up to luck.

I guess KC’s curse went back to 85 that’s why they were quiet

[sharksrog]

I think, Matt, that you are demonstrating how we fans over-emphasize what happens to our team. We all hated losing game 6 in 2002 when it appeared the Giants had locked it up. 2016 wasn't quite as bad for me, since it wasn't the World Series and the Giants were flat-out unlucky in that 9th inning.

But Reed said he read that the Giants' collapse in 2002 was merely the 8th-worst collapse of all time. That says there may have been seven other teams who collapsed worse than the Giants did.

Stuff happens. How do you think Babe Ruth felt when he ended the World Series by being thrown out trying to steal second base?

We shouldn't ignore the other side of the equation. I don't think any other team won 10 straight elimination as the Giants did.

[sharksrog]

I can tell you two things:

First, Clayton really wanted it.

Second, the person who has made this message board say "Chokeshaw" whenever someone write's Clayton's surname is a true choker.

[reedonly]

Chokeshaw may not have been the worst choke in playoff history but he has a lot of them and quantity counts! With that history,  the manager needs to think twice no matter how much Kershaw wants to desperately redeem himself.

[reedonly]

Nov 7, 2021 15:14:00 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

I think, Matt, that you are demonstrating how we fans over-emphasize what happens to our team. We all hated losing game 6 in 2002 when it appeared the Giants had locked it up. 2016 wasn't quite as bad for me, since it wasn't the World Series and the Giants were flat-out unlucky in that 9th inning.

But Reed said he read that the Giants' collapse in 2002 was merely the 8th-worst collapse of all time. That says there may have been seven other teams who collapsed worse than the Giants did.

Stuff happens. How do you think Babe Ruth felt when he ended the World Series by being thrown out trying to steal second base?

We shouldn't ignore the other side of the equation. I don't think any other team won 10 straight elimination as the Giants did.

The Seattle choke has impacted them for over 20 years and counting.  They are #1. Texas is up there because they were down to the final strike twice.  The Yankees 3-0 choke was unprecedented. 

[sharksrog]

Every time someone says "Chokeshaw," he chokes.

[sharksrog]

Kapler didn't groom his pitching staff nearly as "good?" What grade are we in?

I'm curious as to what you meant by Kapler didn't groom his pitching staff nearly as well, Matt. I would probably say that Bochy had a much better pitching staff to groom, but I'm curious to know what you meant.

[reedonly]

The good pitchers are good but the next tier ones still gutted things out. Vogelsong, core four, did what they had to. A lot of the current team was overwhelmed by the situation such as Leone. Doval should improve with some maturity.

[Islandboagie]

My point, Rog, is that I believe Bochy was better at readying the pitching staff to perform in the post-season. I also believe Sabean was better at finding pitchers for Bochy to achieve that goal.

On the other side of that, I believe Kapler is better assembling a lineup, and Farhan is better at finding those players to fit in the lineup.

[sharksrog]

Thanks for the explanation of what you meant, Matt.

I think Bruce was mostly given better pitching than Gabe and had better luck health-wise. He and Sabean had the advantage of having Lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner. I'm not sure the SF Giants have had three such good pitchers for such a long time who overlapped. Marichal and Perry were the best twosome, but I think Lincecum, Cain and Bumgarner may have formed the top trio. That said, 2012 was the only postseason in which all three were big rotation factors. Lincecum was a bullpen factor in 2012.

Sabean should get kudos for the pitchers he picked up along the way, with Ryan Vogelsong being the best value. He really made out with Jake Peavy too. In relief, he snagged Santiago Casilla, Jeremy Affeldt and Javier Lopez in particular. Maybe Brian had a knack for picking up guys like Peavy and Marco Scutaro at the right time, but I think he might have gotten a little lucky in both cases. One guy he picked up who was really hot but got injured and hurt the Giants' chances was Mike Leake looked like a very timely pickup, but he got injured in his first start and missed three weeks. When he returned, he was merely decent, although he pitched a two-hit complete game shutout in his final game.

I'm not sure Sabean did better with bargain pitchers than Mr. Zaidi has done. And Mr. Zaidi did have the foresight to make a Qualifying Offer to Kevin Gausman to ensure Kevin would be around last season.

As for Kaplan, he set the Giants' rotation with Webb, Gausman, DeSclafani and Wood. He had Webb available to start twice, and Gausman would have been available in the final game against the Dodgers if he were needed. If the Giants could have won without Kevin, he would have been available to start the next series. I'm not sure what Gabe could have done better to set up his pitching, especially given that the Giants had to battle until the final day to guarantee they won the division and avoided a play-in game.

I agree with you that Gabe is better at building a lineup. He's been better at platooning than Bruce, and IMO he's also done an even better job then Bochy at putting players in positions to succeed.

The thing that has surprised me most is that the Giants have become the best in the business at picking up guys they think they can help improve -- and then go on to be successful in improving them.

[reedonly]

We did not mention this too much but it has come out that the risk of future concussions probably factored into his decision. He took some wicked shots off the mask in 2021 and I think he feels he has had enough of that. Looking at the effects of CTE in other sports and the severity of the blows makes it an easy decision.

[Islandboagie]

I'm sure that played a part as well, Reed. I'm sure there were multiple good reasons to make Buster walk away from 22 million.

[sharksrog]

Matt -- That's what Sabremetrics cannot measure, being relaxed in those situations.

Rog -- You are correct. But they do measure the results, so if being relaxed helps (which it almost assuredly does, as long as one isn't TOO relaxed), sabremetrics would indeed show that.

In reality though, psychology tells us that stress is good, but that TOO much stress isn't.

"Stress helps you meet your daily challenges and motivates you to reach your goals, ultimately making you a smarter, happier and healthier person. That's right. Good stress is vital for a healthy life."

So when we say a person is relaxed in clutch situations, what we may technically mean is that they're properly stressed, but not overly stressed.

[reedonly]

Nov 22, 2021 13:45:01 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'm sure that played a part as well, Reed. I'm sure there were multiple good reasons to make Buster walk away from 22 million.

When I saw that Buster would announce his retirement, the first person to come to mind was Steve Young.  He still seems to be able to do what he needs to do and sounds strong on the radio.

 The second person who comes to mind is Joe Montana who might have walked away from the game a year or two too late.  Physically, he's not able to do things like snowboarding or basketball and now has neck fusions, elbow arthritis, and a lazy eye condition.  

Only Buster knows how those foul tips off the mask affected him and that one off of AJ Pollack in July might have sealed the deal. 

[reedonly]

Nov 22, 2021 16:06:57 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Matt -- That's what Sabremetrics cannot measure, being relaxed in those situations.

Rog -- You are correct. But they do measure the results, so if being relaxed helps (which it almost assuredly does, as long as one isn't TOO relaxed), sabremetrics would indeed show that.

In reality though, psychology tells us that stress is good, but that TOO much stress isn't.

"Stress helps you meet your daily challenges and motivates you to reach your goals, ultimately making you a smarter, happier and healthier person. That's right. Good stress is vital for a healthy life."

So when we say a person is relaxed in clutch situations, what we may technically mean is that they're properly stressed, but not overly stressed.

You can't play a guitar with loose strings. 

[sharksrog]

Well, one probably can, but it likely doesn't make much music!

[sharksrog]

So what type of instrument is a piano? And what is the full name of the piano? What does it mean in English?