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Post by rxmeister on Sept 22, 2019 9:54:15 GMT -5
If he was forced into retirement and still wants to manage, I’ll be happy for him if the Padres bring him back. Happy for us too, because if the Padres want to go old timey and ignore analytics, it’s to our advantage. Sorry in advance to my friend Boagie!
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 22, 2019 11:44:28 GMT -5
It's hard to determine what's real and fake news anymore. There could be something to this, or they could make up stories like this so we all click on the link that says "Bochy to San Diego?? It could happen!" I'm going to choose the latter in this instance. I read this article yesterday, then this morning I read another article that said Bochy is quoted as saying he is content with his decision to retire and has no interest in going back to San Diego. I think that's the more obvious outcome after this season, but then again that could also be fake news.
Since I'm a conservative I tend to question news stories before I form an opinion based on something that could pure fiction. I understand, since you're a liberal, Mark, you're more apt to have knee jerk reactions to stories filled with lies and misinformation. I'm not trying to insult you, this is just the unfortunate truth. Liberals react emotionally, Conservatives ask questions and look for facts before forming an opinion.
We see the same evidence in sabermetrics. I happen to think sabermetrics are a good thing. Unfortunately a lot of knee jerk liberals are also interested in Sabermetrics, because liberals will latch onto anything trendy. Now we have a bunch of Liberals who throw around these numbers without really knowing what they mean. The ones who do this are the face of the sabermetric community. Before we got Zaidi I had no idea there was someone out there that was a fan of Sabremetrics and could use them in a conservative fashion, which is exactly what he's done. Zaidi has been a supporter of both sides of the game, that is exactly what we need. We don't need these liberal attacks on "old, senile, white dudes." That kind of thinking is not helpful, it's just more knee jerk Liberal antics that I believe the majority of this country are tired of.
As for Bochy, no other San Francisco manager won even a single World Series, he gave us 3. No, he's not perfect, nobody is, but he's by FAR the best manager San Francisco has ever had. You can second guess a few decisions here and there, I do from time to time, i think that's fair. But questioning his overall performance as a manager is just plain retarded.
You have an issue with the way he handles young kids? Our young kids flourished under Bochy. Timmy won two Cy Youngs, Buster won an MVP, many all star appearances from a handful of young kids he turned into savy veterans. What Bochy is doing this year is what he's done the entire time, which is sending the message to these kids that "if you want my trust, you gotta earn it." That's what calmed the egos in the clubhouse and created the chemistry that helped win 3 World Championships. Bochy got all of those guys to play for the name on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. THAT is what defines a great manager.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 24, 2019 13:12:25 GMT -5
Disappointed in the stupidity of your political response, Boagie. Conservatives gullibly believe every bit of news they see on Fox or hear from their President, but the liberals are the fake news people? I posted a discussion speculating on Bochy possibly becoming the next Padre manager and you responded with an ignorant post about liberals and conservatives. And you banned Rog from this board? You should ban yourself!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 24, 2019 14:20:30 GMT -5
It's hard to dispute Boagie's analogy when new fake stories about Trump turn up seemingly every day and are run with without the slightest bit of corroberation.
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Post by holiday613 on Sept 24, 2019 18:45:52 GMT -5
Ok...Lets stick to baseball boyz....I lost Rx as a friend due to politics for about two years and I will be damned if I did again......Politics is a no win situation...
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 24, 2019 23:02:21 GMT -5
Go watch Fox, Randy, you’re not going to like what you see anywhere else! And I’m sure not surprised that you would agree with an ignorant post. Birds of a feather.....
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 25, 2019 9:07:52 GMT -5
Fox is ridiculous too, Mark, you're right. However, the difference is Sean Hannity fully admits he's a talk show host, and Fox considers him as such. Whereas Don Lemon is considered a news anchorman by CNN, and he constantly tries to convince his viewers he doesn't have an agenda. They're both biased and silly, but at least Fox is not trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the American public.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 25, 2019 9:41:00 GMT -5
You're right, Mordy. But in my defense I wasn't really talking politics. I was just comparing the Liberal and Conservative personalities and how they react to news stories. Either way, I'll try to be better. I actually dont think Mark has had many knee jerk reactions, he's usually pretty level headed, but I admit, I get a little fired up when I see anti-Bochy posts. Hey, if you think he's past his prime or it's time for him to quit based on his age and health concerns, I get it. I could go with that. But to purposely demean a guy who managed us to 3 World Championships? That's just dumb. And I believe comments like those are intended to get me and others fired up. So I came back with something I knew would get him fired up.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 25, 2019 15:43:43 GMT -5
I don't need to watch Fox to recognize all the others are fake and silly. They make themselves look ridiculous without help
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 27, 2019 6:59:02 GMT -5
Making a discussion about Bochy managing SD political is just ridiculous. I can even further say that your opinion is ridiculous because you’re attaching relevance to Bochy’s retirement comment when in reality he’s still under contract to the Giants till the end of the season. You’re also guilty of the dreaded FAKE NEWS, because you said Bochy said he has no interest in going there when this is his actual comment. “I’m not even going there,” Bochy said when asked about the San Diego opening, “I’m concentrating here right now doing what I’m supposed to do. That’s the last thing on my mind right now, as much as we’re in the last week here.” Where is he saying he has no interest? He’s clearly saying this is the wrong time to be asked about this. Unless you’ve misinterpreted his “I’m not even going there” comment, where he’s clearly talking about discussing the matter, there’s nothing there to think he’d have no interest in the job. But you be you, Boagie.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 27, 2019 9:28:04 GMT -5
Mark- Unless you’ve misinterpreted his “I’m not even going there” comment, where he’s clearly talking about discussing the matter, there’s nothing there to think he’d have no interest in the job. But you be you, Boagie.
Boagie- You're right, Mark. I did misinterpret the "I'm not even going there" to mean he was referring to the "there" being San Diego. It looks rather stupid that I thought that now that I read it again. However, I still believe this is a non-story made up by the media. I think Bochy still plans to retire and stay retired from managing after this season.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 28, 2019 17:28:18 GMT -5
No worries, Boagie, it takes class to admit a mistake. I actually agree he won’t take the Padres job and instead take off a year or two, but I would be surprised if he stays retired, for any reason other than poor health.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 29, 2019 21:08:26 GMT -5
I think most people in sports come out of retirement if they feel they haven't met the goals they set out to accomplish. In Bochy's case I think he's content with his career, the 3 Championships and the impact he had on all the people that came out today for his send off.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 30, 2019 7:15:44 GMT -5
We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, but I really don’t think he wanted to retire, I think he was gently shoved through the door. Because of that, I expect to see him back.
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 30, 2019 14:15:12 GMT -5
You may be right. I don't know any inside information of a clash between Bochy and Zaidi and where the ballclub was headed in the future. Maybe Bochy felt he wasn't comfortable there anymore because all "his guys" were gone. That may have played a part in his decision to retire, if it did exist. But I think the main factor in his decision was simply wanting to be around his family more. Yesterday seemed to illustrate that. He became emotional when talking about his family more so than the players and the ballclub.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 30, 2019 14:19:48 GMT -5
Shortly after, or before, I can't remember, the season began, I posted that I thought Boch was being forced out, and further stated that he didn't want to be a part of where baseball was going with all of its sabermetrics.
I still believe that.
Not that Bochy doesn't use some of them, but that he doesn't buy into the massive quantity of their use in making player decisions and on the field decisons.
Because of that, it is my belief that IF, and that's a huge IF... Bochy were to manage again, it would have to be in a situation where he was given free rein; where he wouldn't be constricted by a stats driven GM.
Personally, I don't see it ever happening.
In fact, I hope he doesn't go back into the dug out because I want to remember him as a winner with us, not just some guy hanging on in some other dugout.
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Post by rxmeister on Oct 1, 2019 7:16:50 GMT -5
Bruce Bochy’s final record as Giants manager 1052-1054 Felipe Alou’s record 342-304 Dusty Baker’s record 840-715
Yet Bochy is a genius headed for the Hall of Fame and the other two we couldn’t get out of town fast enough! And I’m not posting this to denigrate Bochy, just to point out how overrated managing is, and asking the question why is a manager simply judged by what he does in the post season? I will guarantee you that better managers than any of these three were lost in anonymity with bad clubs. If Bruce Bochy had managed the Orioles all these years instead of the Giants he wouldn’t be headed to Cooperstown. It’s the players, not the manager that wins or loses games, and that’s true in the post season as much as it is in the regular season. So when we wonder about who the next manager will be, remember it doesn’t make a difference. It’s on the players that we have next season.
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 1, 2019 10:06:40 GMT -5
The players do matter, you're right about that. We wouldn't have had the success we had without Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Posey, Crawford..etc. All but Cain were not on the team prior to Bochy taking over. Bochy took over during the transition of the Bonds era. He was handed a team that had no identity, a team of aging veterans that seemed to barely want to suit up anymore. Bochy along with Sabean turned a bad aging team into a World Champion in 3 years.
Baker and Alou were both handed championship caliber teams. During the Baker and Alou years there were a handful of teams that could of and sometimes even should of won a World Series or at least fared better than they did.
You can't say that about Bochy. In 2010, 2012, and 2014 the Giants weren't the best team on paper, but they were the best team on the field. In the other years when we missed the playoffs there was a very good reason why. Bochy never left us scratching our heads wondering what happened. In 1993, 1997, 2000, 2002, 2003 you could make the argument the Giants were the best team on paper. But in the end they allowed other less talented teams to beat us.
You're right though, maybe Bochy wouldn't be headed to the HoF if he had managed the Orioles since 2007. But I believe the Orioles would have had a much better shot at winning if he had.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 1, 2019 10:28:34 GMT -5
I totally agree with you, boagie. Totally.
It is true that the players have to make plays, but it is the manager who puts them in the right position to make those plays.
His choice of pitching match ups, pinch hitting match ups can simply not be over looked or brushed aside.
It is the manager who decides to H/R, steal, SAC.
It is the manager who has to manage their huge, over the top egos.
it is the manager who has to keep everyone happy...and THAT is no easy job.
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Post by rxmeister on Oct 2, 2019 8:08:45 GMT -5
The same genius who won us world championships in 2010, 2012 and 2014, was the guy who singlehandedly lost us game four in 2016, with a series of desperation ninth inning pitching moves, each one worse than the one before it. So did he become dumb after all the great playoff moves he made in previous years? No, because it’s not him, it’s the players. He was a genius when he had the Core Four in his bullpen and an idiot when he didn’t. He was successful when he had Linecum, Cain, Vogelsong, and prime Mad Bum in his rotation and an idiot when he had declining Bum, DRod, Matt Moore, Blach, etc in his rotation. Why do the A’s make the playoffs all the time with all these different ordinary managers? Billy Beane. And the Giants future success will depend on Zaidi being the next Beane, not the guy in the dugout being the next Bochy, because as I said, managing is way overrated. The most obvious example is Don Mattingly. Fired by the Dodgers with a 446-363 record, way better than Bochy. Given an extension by the Marlins after 276-370. Why? Because your players decide your success or failure.
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 2, 2019 10:40:04 GMT -5
One screw up negates all the other successes?
That makes no sense, Mark.
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 2, 2019 17:33:49 GMT -5
Not sure where Mark was going with that. He said Bochy's success is because of the players, yet he claims in 2016 Bochy single handedly lost the game by using multiple pitchers. Those pitchers together only needed to get 3 outs with a fairly comfortable lead. Each pitcher failed to get the job done.
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Post by holiday613 on Oct 2, 2019 19:20:08 GMT -5
RX is 1000% right...Take a look at his career record and it should put this argument to rest..He was the guy who insisted on playing Benjie Molina everyday until Sabes was forced to trade him..Bochy never met a veteran he didnt like and would give untold limits in their suckiness yet would bench a promising younger player after his first bad game...Letsface it, The game has passed him by..This is a younger more athletic game now and Bochy never got it and never will...there is a reason why Posey was batting near the top of the lineup all season even though he stunk up the joint...I can name many more examples but I wont bore you..I hated Dusty Baker and I wasnt a fan of Bochy either...Gimme Roger Craig any time of the day of Frank Robinson!!! Screw the "he is a players manager BS"..These get paid a shitload of money!! They should play hard regardless who the manager is...Ill tell you what though...Ill take Joe Girardi in a NY minute!!!
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Post by rxmeister on Oct 3, 2019 7:06:39 GMT -5
Maybe we can compromise a bit here and say that Bochy WAS an excellent manager but no longer is. As Mordy pointed out, he loves his veterans and he pushes aside the kids. Is this the manager we want working with Webb, Bart, Ramos and the next wave of kids? Does he have the heart to bench Posey for Bart? He pinch hit for Zach Green in his first major league game with his family there when the kid was 2 for 3! The kid did nothing after that and soon was back in the minors. He pinch hit Crawford for Dubon in the ninth inning with the bases loaded when Dubon was out hitting Crawford .290 to .220! His clutch veteran proceeded to take a called strike three. Bochy lives and dies with his veterans. When he has good ones, he’s a good manager. When they’re bad, he’s a bad manager. And when they’re washed up? So is he.
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 3, 2019 10:03:10 GMT -5
Yes, Bochy did tend to favor certain veteran players. Like remember when he favored Renteria and Uribe? Some of us on the board weren't a fan of either player, yet in the end they helped us win a Championship. I remember thinking they should just release Uribe after he booted the routine grounder that cost Sanchez his perfect game. I was never a fan of Renteria until the World Series homerun. I know I wasn't alone here. We were wrong, Bochy was right.
Yes, Bochy favored some veterans, but he also gave chances to young players who performed. Bumgarner as a rookie made the post season roster in 2010, Zito didn't. I believe I remember reading that Posey and Bumgarner made the youngest battery mates in World Series history. Brian Wilson was still young himself when he was asked to close out World Series games. Romo was asked to come in during big situations, he too was young.
Tim Lincecum made his debut against the defending NL Champion Phillies on ESPN, I'm fairly certain he was given his shot.
Brandon Belt had zero major league at-bats when he started at first base on opening day in 2011. Crawford hit a grand slam his first game, and he started at shortstop.
Name one young player on the Giants Bochy was unfair to...just one. The only player that I can think of that got through the cracks was Adam Duvall, but even he sputtered out and he wasn't even that young. Duvall would have probably been overlooked by most of us.
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 3, 2019 10:22:28 GMT -5
And if we want to compare Bochy to Roger Craig, do you guys even remember how many damn times Craig ran Mike Lacoss and Atlee Hammaker out there? We even started referring to Mike Lacoss as Mike La-loss. How often did we watch Steve Bedrosian blow games? Craig loved veteran pitchers, regardless if they were good or not. If Craig were still manager today our opening day starter this season would have probably been Mike Krukow, if Kruk hadn't retired.
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Post by holiday613 on Oct 3, 2019 15:24:21 GMT -5
And if we want to compare Bochy to Roger Craig, do you guys even remember how many damn times Craig ran Mike Lacoss and Atlee Hammaker out there? We even started referring to Mike Lacoss as Mike La-loss. How often did we watch Steve Bedrosian blow games? Craig loved veteran pitchers, regardless if they were good or not. If Craig were still manager today our opening day starter this season would have probably been Mike Krukow, if Kruk hadn't retired. And he was still better than Melon head...Shows you haw much Bochy sucked
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 3, 2019 21:00:46 GMT -5
Again, name one player Bochy was unfair to that went on to prove Bochy wrong.
You can second guess Bochy's decisions all you want, but he's still the only manager to win a World Championship in San Francisco, and he did it 3 times. When you're a manager, getting results are the most important thing.
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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 3, 2019 21:01:37 GMT -5
Who is melon head?
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Post by holiday613 on Oct 4, 2019 2:21:38 GMT -5
Again, name one player Bochy was unfair to that went on to prove Bochy wrong. You can second guess Bochy's decisions all you want, but he's still the only manager to win a World Championship in San Francisco, and he did it 3 times. When you're a manager, getting results are the most important thing. Don't understand the question...Melonhead =Bochy
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