The New Kids

[klaiggeb]

You really can't judge a kid by one game, but I have to say, I was impressed by the poise that Menez showed.

He had to be nervous as all get out, but he certainly didn't show it.

I'd like to see more of him.



I also liked the poise I saw from Zach Green, too.

Nice debuts by both.

[rxmeister]

Menez was called up to join the rotation, so we definitely will be seeing more of him. I liked that he bounced back from the two early homers, and actually did better the second and third times through the lineup. I liked Green too, and was sorry to see him pinch hit for by Pablo later in the game. This is why Bochy is getting eased out after the season. I know the Giants have re-entered the wild card race but is he seriously going to manage like it’s the game seven of the WS? I know you like to pinch hit for a lefty when a lefty reliever comes in, but a righty for a righty reliever? Talk about over managing! And for a kid in his first major league game with his family there to be yanked for a pinch hitter? Cmon Boch! Let’s not even mention the kid had a couple of hits too and Pablo was struggling before his four hit day yesterday. By the way, 17 of Zach’s 23 minor league HR’s this year was off of righthanders. Just ludicrous.

[Islandboagie]

I think that was partially a pinch hitting role, but Green is also not a great defender, so Pablo coming in for him late in the game was likely for defensive purposes as well. Just a thought. Regardless, I think Boch has done a remarkable job of rotating guys in and out and keeping everyone fresh.

[klaiggeb]

I was not surprised that he PH for Green.

Not at all.

I would not have done it, but I wasn't surprised.

I'm guessing he wanted the kid to leave the game with a good taste in his mouth, (2 for 3 with an RBI), and not with a K and then, perhaps another one against a RHP.

Just a guess.

[sfgdood]

Bochy hasn't been managing all year. Our stats geek gm has

[rxmeister]

Menez was just sent back to the minors anyway and Coonrod was called up. Apparently the “stats geek” as you refer to him or “guy much smarter than you” as I refer to him, thinks it’s inefficient to have his young starters sit around for five days when he could have an extra reliever here. I’m guessing Rodriguez would get the next start, as Menez will have to stay down 10 days.

[klaiggeb]

It makes sense sending the kid down to pitch and getting a fresh arm up.

This is precisely what Farhan SAID he was going to do, and I have no problem with it.

The kids need to pitch, and as you pointed out, Mark, sitting around won't help him, but getting Rodriguez to make the next start will help Derreck and the team.


But I'm with Randy on Farhan. He's a stats geek who never played the game.

As Flannery pointed out on the pregame show yesterday, analytics DON'T include character, nor a player's influence in the clubhouse.

A guy like Pence, for example.

Does anyone really believe we would have won in 2010 with out his pregame rants?

I don't!

Not for one moment!

That was one mentally beaten up team.

They needed some 'rah-rah,' and Pence provided it.

Farhan may very well turn out to be as smart as you suggest.

but to date, and be fair, he's done NOTHING to earn the "genius," or even "brilliant" title that he gets.

[sfgdood]

We didn't get Pence until 2012 but I agree with your point Boly. Stats geeks never will appreciate the full value of that kind of player. They never look past what the analytics say

[klaiggeb]

Thanks, Randy. I was pretty sure I had the year wrong, but I was in a hurry, and too lazy to check.

[Islandboagie]

In defense of the "stat geeks" I dont recall either one of you defending Hunter Pence when he couldn't hit or field his position anymore. The motivational speaking is great, but you have to be able to produce too. It's the GM's job to find the producers, it's the job of the veterans making oodles of money to be the motivators.

[rxmeister]

Fans who dismiss people like Farhan as stats geeks are dinosaurs awaiting the soon to arrive meteor. Is there a team anymore that doesn’t believe in them? Absolutely not. All of baseball is wrong and Boly and Randy are right. How have the Giants turned this thing around with essentially the same old cast that has been so miserable the last two seasons and are now even more over the hill? Two words. Farhan and Zaidi. And he’s done it without money and on the fly, adding players nobody wanted. Dickerson, Yaz, Pillar, Vogt. Washington had the worst bullpen in baseball this year, yet Zaidi found Trevor Gott on their staff and the guy is 7-0! But sure, guys, ignore the modern stats and send out some 80 year old scout like Grandpa Munster used to do when his series was cancelled and “beat the bushes” looking for the next Mike Trout. I’ll take my chances (and the Giants will too) on the dude with the pocket protector and the calculator. Now go get those pesky kids off your lawn!

[klaiggeb]

I have never poo-pooed analytics, Mark, so that part of your post, though humorous, is untrue.

What I HAVE poo-pooed is analytics uber alles.

And THAT is the mantra of the SABR freaks.

As I've posted a gazillion times, they've never played the game yet claim they know and understand the game better than anyone else.


And I can't believe you're giving so much credit to Zaidi.

Most of what he's accomplished is by accident!

As Woody said to Buzz, "That's not flying, that's falling with style."

In this case, That's not brilliance, that's tripping on your own shoelaces and falling on a bag of money.

I sent this to a friend of mine, but it's worth posting here, too.



I don't see Farhan getting hardly ANY credit at all for 'remaking' this team.

Seriously. Very little credit.

Let's look a a couple of names for whom he's getting what I call, undeserved credit.

1-Slater-Farhan had nothing to do with him re working his swing. That's something that was suggested to him DURING THE SEASON last year.

He went out and did the work. HE gets the credit.


2-Yaz-He was one of the 'throw mud at the wall and see what sticks' moves that Farhan made.

Yaz reworked his swing.
Yaz worked hard to get a chance.
Very little credit to Farhan who got lucky on this one.

3-Dickerson- another one of the 'throw mud at the wall and see what sticks' moves that Farhan made.

Farhan had NOTHING to do with Dickerson's success. The kid is finally healthy.
Throwing mud at the wall results in "lucky finds," if you throw enough of it.
And he's thrown a TON of mud.


4-Beede-Busted his fanny in the off season. Farhan had nothing to do with it.

5-Anderson-Was earning his way up to the show LAST year, and got his chance this year.

Farhan had nothing to do with acquiring him or his success.


5-Solano-Just a guy for depth when he was picked up. No one could foresee what has come next.

6-Gott- More lucky mud. He'd NEVER distinguished himself in any manner prior to this year.

Farhan's failures in his "mud" strategy are over whelming.

Reed, Joe, Solarte, Parra, Bergen, Venditti, Alther, and Pomeranz topping the list.


I'll give him credit for 2 and ONLY 2 players, neither of whom is young;

Pillar and Vogt.

That's it.

[Islandboagie]

Why do you give him credit for Vogt and Pillar, but not Yaz and Dickerson? Vogt and Pillar were already established major leaguers, Yaz and Dickerson were gems he found. Yes he has had a few duds, but the strategy he's used to find the Solanos, Dickersons, and Yazs has worked in favor of the recent success.

[klaiggeb]

Getting Vogt and Pillar were moves to strengthen the club.

They were established players who didn't cost that much.

How can I give him credit for Yaz and Dickerson when they were cast offs that no one wanted?

Do I give the blind squirrel credit for finding the nut?

Nope.

If you stick your hand into a barrel of apples, most of which are rotten, sooner or later you find a good one.

That's luck, not skill.

[Islandboagie]

I agree, Boly. But the point I'm trying to make is you wont come up with ANY good apples if you never dunk your head in the barrel. Bobby Evans just waved some cash around until there was nothing left but rotten apples. Zaidi is constantly looking to upgrade our current roster, hes not sitting on his hands waiting for his moves to pan out. The bad moves he's made he's corrected already, if Evan's was still the GM we would still be waiting for the duds to start playing well. You might not like Zaidi, I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but I do give him credit for finding Yaz and Dickerson, theres really no reasonable way you can't give him some credit with those players.

[sfgdood]

If you guys like today's game better than the one we grew up watching. I'm more than ready for extinction if this is the trajectory. We have wimp starters being pulled after 80 pitches for gods sake. It's a freakin joke

[Islandboagie]

I hear ya, Randy. I dont like change any more than the next guy. I've enjoyed watching baseball my entire life, but my favorite era of Giants baseball is the current one, that is if you consider the 3 championships part of this era. It's not even close for me, the period between 2010 and 2014 were the most fruitful years of Giants baseball. Obviously it hasn't been as enjoyable since 2014, but I still enjoy watching, especially this last month or so...

I often wonder how we went from World Champions to one of the worst teams in baseball. Two reasons stick out to me - Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain. Both pitched a lot. A lot of games, innings and pitches. A lot of post season pitches...They both got overworked and burnt out early. If you could go back now, would you shave some innings here and there to lengthen their careers? I think that's the thinking behind not letting the starting pitcher go as deep. Since I saw first hand two of our guys get overworked, I am not entirely opposed to the idea of shortening up outings to lengthen some careers in the future.

There have been a fair amount of changes since 1986 (when I first became a fan) but I enjoy watching it more now than I did back then. I wasn't a fan of the restructured divisions - but that didn't ruin the game. I wasn't a fan of interleague - that also didn't ruin the game (although I believe they should drop it.) The art of the stolen base fading from the game hasn't ruined it. No collisions at home plate hasn't ruined it, the pitcher batting 8th didn't ruin it, the "opener" fad isn't going to ruin it, and the starting pitcher not pitching as deep into the game won't ruin it either. All sports evolve, Randy, whether we like it or not. I'm pretty sure if you havent stopped watching yet, you probably never will.

[klaiggeb]

I don't mind the mud slinging at all, boagie.

I just fervently object to Farhan being called a 'genius' because some of it worked.


I object fervently also, to him being called brilliant, or getting credit, because of PLAYERS who busted their fannies to adapt and change.

That's not GM brilliance, that's goof-ball luck.


When Evans signed McCutchen and Longoria, I thought they were good, solid moves.

When McCutchen left us, he had a pretty decent season.

That he basically stunk for us is something I can't explain.

Evans slung mud, too, it just didn't work.

[Islandboagie]

I'm not sure what the reference of slinging mud means, Boly, or how it fits into this discussion. I care about winning, plain and simple. So far Zaidi has put together a winning team, Bobby Evans didn't, eventhough you referred to that team as the best team since the 60's.

As for Zaidi being called a genius, I've clearly taken a stance against that theory. I think a lot of the recent success can be attributed to the scouts and Bochy's management style. What Zaidi has done is enable those people to do their jobs without having high profile players forced upon them. What Zaidi has done is give scouts the opportunity to scout, and the coaching staff plenty of options to look at. I think that's a good strategy.

[rxmeister]

But it’s NOT luck, Boly, that’s the point. With the Dodgers it was Chris Taylor and Max Muncy, with the Giants it’s Dickerson and Yaz. And Gott. And Pillar. And Vogt. Just his move the other day. So subtle. Sends Menez to the minors after a good start, because he wants to add a reliever and not waste a roster spot for four days. That reliever was Sam Coonrod. Game goes 13 innings and Coonrod comes in and absolutely blows away the middle of the Cub lineup and even gets the win. It’s just weak to suggest every good thing he does is luck. You don’t know the research he did into Yaz and Dickerson and Gott before acquiring them, so how can you possibly suggest it’s luck? Where were the other GM’s when Zaidi was acquiring these players? Cmon, Boly, be fair. It’s ok to admit you’re wrong, you don’t have to use luck as your defense. If I want to argue Christian Yelich is a lousy player but he’s been lucky because pitchers keep making mistakes when pitching to him, would you accept that argument? There comes a time where you have to admit you were wrong and Zaidi is outworking everyone else and doing a great job and take some joy into how well your favorite team is playing.

[rxmeister]

Grizzled old traditional Bochy on Zaidi.
"You know, it's been great with Farhan," Bochy said. "I tell you, he's a really smart, good baseball man. He's all about winning. That's all he wants to do, so he's having a lot of fun with this, trust me. Sure there was a lot of discussions earlier, 'Well we're going to make moves and move guys, whatever' But I assure you, this is a lot more fun for him, and he's having a better time, and so it's really been fun to see how we've improved our roster, too. He's done a great job of doing that, getting the Dickersons here and Yastrzemski, and of course, Slater coming up here and Anderson and Beede out there pitching for us.

"It's going well here and it's obvious winning makes our lives a lot better, but it's fun to see our fans enjoy it, but also for Farhan to see a better team. As I go out, that's what I wanted to do is to try to get this club back on track and back to winning baseball. That's our goal and hopefully, I leave it in a better spot than when I came here."

Didn’t see Bochy use the word luck once!

[Islandboagie]

I agree, Mark. I think using the luck excuse is almost as ridiculous as when Rog used it explaining the 3 championship seasons.

[sfgdood]

I'm not ready to call it luck...but we have to remember that this team even after winning 17 of its last 20 games is just 2 over 500. If youre going to annoint the geek a genius, you must also blame him for the ugly start. Connor Joe and Michael Reid are pretty good arguments for the theory that Fargeek just throws mud at the wall and sees what sticks. if the team misses the playoffs and gets zip in return when Bum and Smith leave, and then Yaz and Dick go back to what theyve always been...what then? Will you still think Zaidis a genius?

[sfgdood]

As for the Bochy quote I don't put much stock in it. Just towing the company line. He said similar things about Evans

[klaiggeb]

Jul 24, 2019 10:38:07 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

But it’s NOT luck, Boly, that’s the point. With the Dodgers it was Chris Taylor and Max Muncy, with the Giants it’s Dickerson and Yaz. And Gott. And Pillar. And Vogt. Just his move the other day. So subtle. Sends Menez to the minors after a good start, because he wants to add a reliever and not waste a roster spot for four days. That reliever was Sam Coonrod. Game goes 13 innings and Coonrod comes in and absolutely blows away the middle of the Cub lineup and even gets the win. It’s just weak to suggest every good thing he does is luck. You don’t know the research he did into Yaz and Dickerson and Gott before acquiring them, so how can you possibly suggest it’s luck? Where were the other GM’s when Zaidi was acquiring these players? Cmon, Boly, be fair. It’s ok to admit you’re wrong, you don’t have to use luck as your defense. If I want to argue Christian Yelich is a lousy player but he’s been lucky because pitchers keep making mistakes when pitching to him, would you accept that argument? There comes a time where you have to admit you were wrong and Zaidi is outworking everyone else and doing a great job and take some joy into how well your favorite team is playing.

I totally agree with you about Menez and Coonrod and every other move that Farhan has made like that.

In fact, I love the way he moves players up and down as needed, especially the pitchers.

Which is PRECISELY what he said he'd do before the season began.

I loved the Pillar and Vogt move.

Loved both.

He showed that he could evaluate players for character and talent.

But I do not agree with you about Yaz, nor with Dickerson.

I don't.

How many years was Yaz in the minors?

5

And what did he hit?

.263 with 73 HRs in 2953 plate appearances.

Those are not numbers that get you called up.

They aren't.

They aren't even numbers that get you noticed.



Dickerson was GIVEN UP on by the Padres.

In his last health season in the minors, he hit .257!

Now I will concede that a smart baseball guy could/likely would see the talent that was there.

But if that's true, why did the Padres just flat out get rid of the guy?

Surely they could see the upside.

But they didn't, it seems.


Slater's emergence had nothing to do with Zaidi.

Solano, it could be argued that, since he was in the LA system, Farhan knew of him.

But if he was so talented, why has he not been given a chance since 2016?

Gott had done nada to distinguish himself in Washington.

IF he had so much upside, on a team with such bullpen issues, why wasn't he given a fair shot?


Therefore, I stand by my statement; He got lucky with Dickerson, Yaz and Gott, and I'm going to add Slater, because he has been a huge reason for our recent success.


You've read my stuff for a long time.

You KNOW I have no reason saying I'm wrong, so don't confuse me with others who can't or won't.


Here's my final point:

IF, and it's a huge IF...he shows good to excellent discernment with the trading deadline here, then, and only then will I back him, and give him my worthless vote of confidence.

Then and only then will I stop bad mouthing him.

I'll treat him the way I've treated every other GM we've ever had.

[klaiggeb]

I meant "NO PROBLEM"

[rxmeister]

Here’s the thing, Boly. The fact that he saw something in Yaz and Dickerson that nobody else did, is not luck, it’s the very opposite of luck! Again, it’s the same way Billy Beane finds cheap gems in Oakland and Friedman found Taylor and Muncy. Those are two men he worked for and that trained him. So why are they acclaimed as geniuses and not called lucky? You can’t have it both ways. And Dickerson was given up on by the Padres because of a completely different reason. Have you seen their outfield? Hunter Renfroe, Franmil Reyes and Manuel Margot. Margot has star potential although he’s been disappointing so far, and Renfroe and Reyes are closing in on 30 homeruns each and we’re still in July. Do they need Dickerson? What was the Giants outfield? Mac Williamson? Steven Duggar? This is perfect proof of the statement about one man’s trash being another man’s treasure. As for Randy’s argument, I saw an answer from Zaidi himself. He basically did the team the Giants are now fielding is so much different than the one they fielded earlier in the season that you can’t compare them. This is not the team that looked so terrible in April and May. And as for Bochy’s quote. He’s in his last year, there’s no reason he can’t speak his mind. I do agree he wouldn’t criticize because that’s not his style, but he could have very well said nothing.

[Islandboagie]

Just curious, Mark, where would you consider Sabean in the genius category next to Beane, Friedman a d Zaidi?

[klaiggeb]

That's a good question, boagie.

I consider Sabean the best Giant GM I've seen in my 60 years watching the club.

I say that in spite of the fact that he often frustrated me, and also that the best he could do one year was go out and get Doug Henry.

I remember saying: "That's it? That's the best he could do?"

But 3 world championships with less talent than the rest of baseball?

Wow!

That is saying something.

[klaiggeb]

All right, Mark, I'll concede a point; Farhan did see something in the players that no one else did.

For that I'll give him credit.