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Post by Islandboagie on Jul 25, 2019 13:33:18 GMT -5
Boly- But 3 world championships with less talent than the rest of baseball?
Boagie- Less hitting talent, but not pitching talent. In 2010 and 2012 they had (arguably) the best pitching staff and in 2014 Bumgarner dominated.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jul 25, 2019 13:36:10 GMT -5
He also failed to see what we all saw in Connor Joe and Michael Reid...absolute crap
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 25, 2019 15:00:34 GMT -5
Boly- But 3 world championships with less talent than the rest of baseball? Boagie- Less hitting talent, but not pitching talent. In 2010 and 2012 they had (arguably) the best pitching staff and in 2014 Bumgarner dominated. Totally agree, boagie, and I was very remiss in not pointing that out.
I was talking about the starting 8.
We were definitely behind the other teams in that department.
That's the part about this current team that reminds me of 2010.
The starting 8 and their back ups.
Pitching wise, no way on God's green earth do we come even close to comparing.
And that's my big fear with this group IF the front office decides to 'go for it."
Which I think they are going to do.
But that's for another thread, one I'm going to entitle: "Let's play GM; What would you do?"
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:07:25 GMT -5
Stats geeks never will appreciate the full value of that kind of player. They never look past what the analytics say Rog -- I for one was pretty complimentary to The Preacher in that regard. You made a comment recently that just because you didn't agree with the point that the Giants made really nice trade deadline deals didn't mean you didn't understand it. Then you continued to make comments that backed up the point of view that you didn't. Just because it isn't possible to quantify the emotion generated by someone like Hunter doesn't mean I don't understand it. I've been studying team chemistry for 44 years now, beginning with the World Champion 1974-75 Warriors, so it's likely I have a bit more appreciation than you realize. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5463/new-kids?page=1#ixzz5wZ3ydZ6R
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:10:21 GMT -5
As Flannery pointed out on the pregame show yesterday, analytics DON'T include character, nor a player's influence in the clubhouse. Rog -- Given that Farhan is smarter than any of us and that he's been around big league clubhouses a lot more than we have, why wouldn't he understand that? Finally we're giving him some due for his moves, but I think we may still be selling him short in the area of understanding the clubhouse. You don't think that if he didn't already possess it, he's gotten a clue from his many hours of talking with Bruce? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5463/new-kids?page=2#ixzz5wZ5EWY4k
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:13:14 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:14:19 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:15:36 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:17:57 GMT -5
2-Yaz-He was one of the 'throw mud at the wall and see what sticks' moves that Farhan made. Yaz reworked his swing. Yaz worked hard to get a chance. Very little credit to Farhan who got lucky on this one. 3-Dickerson- another one of the 'throw mud at the wall and see what sticks' moves that Farhan made. Farhan had NOTHING to do with Dickerson's success. The kid is finally healthy. Throwing mud at the wall results in "lucky finds," if you throw enough of it. And he's thrown a TON of mud. A couple of quotes come to mind: "Luck is the residue of design." "That hard you work, the luckier you get." Here is one I just came across: "Good luck is what is left over after intelligence and effort have combined at their best." I think that last one describes Farhan pretty well. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5463/new-kids?page=2#ixzz5wZ7BZgyt
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:23:30 GMT -5
5-Solano-Just a guy for depth when he was picked up. No one could foresee what has come next. 6-Gott- More lucky mud. He'd NEVER distinguished himself in any manner prior to this year. Maybe that is what best describes Farhan -- Lucky mud. He isn't afraid of hard work, and he isn't scared of getting dirty. On a related note, as a 22-year-old rookie, Trevor Gott posted a 3.02 ERA. He had a 1.20 ERA in his one season pitching for the University of Kentucky. He posted a 3.34 ERA in the minors, striking out 239 in 234 innings. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5463/new-kids?page=2#ixzz5wZ7pNGpk
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:25:55 GMT -5
The real reason that Farhan picked up Trevor Gott was as a favor to Bruce Bochy. Bruce always wanted to be in a position where when the umpire came out to a mound conference to ask him, "Got your reliever?" he could honestly say yes.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:27:17 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:29:05 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:30:45 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 14, 2019 4:34:19 GMT -5
I think Al Rosen may be the best Giants GM, although Brian certainly had success.
I'm not sure the game has ever seen a GM as polarizing as Brian. I know I liked him right off the bat because my dad was highly impressed with him and no doubt would express a regret from his life that he died five months before Brian became GM. It was an event he was looking forward to.
Later though I was shocked when the Giants renewed Brian's contract after the Barry Bonds era. He'd made a lot of mistakes. But it's hard to argue with his future results.
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 14, 2019 10:16:03 GMT -5
"You know, it's been great with Farhan," Bochy said. "I tell you, he's a really smart, good baseball man. He's all about winning. That's all he wants to do ..." Once again Mark gives us a quote that puts things into perspective. Not that Randy apparently paid attention. Roger, there is no reason for that kind of sarcasm.
You and Randy disagree. Leave it at that, please.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 15, 2019 9:56:20 GMT -5
There's a difference here, Boly, between you and Randy on this topic. You were reluctant to give Farhan credit until he deserved it, but once he had an excellent trade deadline, you opened up and gave him credit. Randy is the only person in the world that I know of who has actually criticized the Giants' deadline deals. The baseball world seemed to think they were pretty darn good.
Now, you, Randy and I each would have liked to see the Giants go further with their trades, but to come out of their deals looking better in the present, better for the future, and with significant salary having been shed was quite a coup. If Randy truly paid attention, his judgment is truly worse than I thought.
There are differences of opinion, which happen. But being almost totally blind to a situation isn't something that should occur. And Randy tries to cover up for his mistakes with almost constant bluster and bravado.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but I was giving Randy the benefit of the doubt when I said he hadn't paid attention.
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 15, 2019 10:46:02 GMT -5
There's a difference here, Boly, between you and Randy on this topic. You were reluctant to give Farhan credit until he deserved it, but once he had an excellent trade deadline, you opened up and gave him credit. Randy is the only person in the world that I know of who has actually criticized the Giants' deadline deals. The baseball world seemed to think they were pretty darn good. Now, you, Randy and I each would have liked to see the Giants go further with their trades, but to come out of their deals looking better in the present, better for the future, and with significant salary having been shed was quite a coup. If Randy truly paid attention, his judgment is truly worse than I thought. There are differences of opinion, which happen. But being almost totally blind to a situation isn't something that should occur. And Randy tries to cover up for his mistakes with almost constant bluster and bravado. Sorry for the sarcasm, but I was giving Randy the benefit of the doubt when I said he hadn't paid attention. It didn't sound that way, Roger.
Randy and I disagree on some things, too.
But I let it go.
We're not going to agree on everything.
You, on the other hand, continue on like you're going to change his mind.
Not going to happen from an external source.
No one could have or would have changed my mind on Farhan.
I set the parameters.
I determined what it would take to change my mind on him.
My mind couldn't be/wouldn't be bent or forced by anyone else's opinion.
Let Randy work this out on his own.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 15, 2019 12:26:46 GMT -5
I'm thinking that if the Giants traded every player over 30 or of they won the World Championship, Randy would come around on Farhan. But even then I think he might do so begrudgingly. He seems to have something against the man.
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 16, 2019 0:28:56 GMT -5
I dont agree with Randy's assessment on the trade deadline, but in his defense he was hoping for more blockbuster deals, and expecting at least one. When you don't get what you're expecting you're bound to be dissapointed.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 16, 2019 7:18:06 GMT -5
But if we don't get what we want, we shouldn't allow it to affect our judgment. I was highly disappointed that the Giants didn't make more deals, but there was no point in allowing my disappointment to cloud my judgment on what they did.
To be honest, they had me at getting Dubon for a starter they had given up on and a reliever who can't throw strikes. When they got rid of ALL of Melancon's salary, I was taken aback. And when they picked up Scooter Gennett for almost nothing, my mind was blown.
It's conceivable the key player they picked up was Jaylin Davis. One negative about Jaylin though is that despite his breakout season, he's hitting the ball on the ground more than ever before. And that comes after his getting it in the air more in 2018. But I think the Giants were pretty happy with all three players they got in the Dyson trade, and they were able to trade Sam -- just back from the disabled list -- despite his first suffering arm discomfort in the middle of July. Sam did say upon his return though that he's feeling "amazing."
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 16, 2019 10:03:48 GMT -5
Rog- But if we don't get what we want, we shouldn't allow it to affect our judgment. I was highly disappointed that the Giants didn't make more deals, but there was no point in allowing my disappointment to cloud my judgment on what they did.
Boagie- I believe Randy said something to the affect of "I guess they were decent moves, I just wanted more." Considering what Randy wanted, I'd say that's a reasonable response. Although I dont believe Randy gave enough credit to Zaidi for getting Atlanta to eat Melancon's contract.
When this season began, the Giants were considered to be sellers at the deadline, especially here on this board.
I'm probably the only one here that wanted them to keep Bumgarner the whole time. I felt he was too valuable to use as rental trade bait. I felt they could get a fair amount for him, but not what they would consider an equal exchange for an ace pitcher, which is what the Giants organization and I felt he still was. You can go back and read it. If the Giants plan to try to compete over the next handful of years, an ace pitcher like Bumgarner is key. I believe they fully intend to resign him and continue to find more ways to be competitive in the near future.
I believe from the beginning Zaidi's goal was to make the Giants competitive again, at the big league level and the higher levels of their system. He's achieved that goal and he did it without spending money. Whether you're me, Randy, Boly, Rog, Mark, Gary or Mordy...whatever your expectations were going into this season, you HAVE to be more optimistic for the future now than you were back in February.
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 16, 2019 14:33:38 GMT -5
All very true statements, boagie.
The future looks much, much brighter!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 16, 2019 21:52:27 GMT -5
One question boagie...if they want him here long term why haven't they extended him and avoid all the drama?
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Post by klaiggeb on Aug 17, 2019 10:17:12 GMT -5
The Giants are very closed-mouthed in contract situations, Randy.
Maybe there have been discussions.
I sure hope so.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 10:26:41 GMT -5
I believe Randy said something to the affect of "I guess they were decent moves, I just wanted more."
Rog -- Is that why he cotinues to call Farhan "Faridiot?" There seems to be an idiot involved alright, but he doesn't appear to be employed by the Giants.
I watned more moves too, but it would have been foolish to allow that cloud my judgment of the moves the Giants did make, which have been pretty much universally heralded. And then there is Randy.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 10:29:29 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Aug 17, 2019 10:43:29 GMT -5
Thank you for answering for me Boly. I really don't like answering questions that Randy should already know the answer to. He's been around long enough to know these things. However, I will add that maybe they don't distract anyone during the season, they might wait for the season to be over. That had also been the case quite often under Sabean. Of course, now it's Zaidi, so we don't really know how he works as far as contract negotiations, but I would imagine it's going to be somewhat similar. One thing is for sure, they want to keep him around, or they would have traded him.
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Post by sharksrog on Aug 17, 2019 11:44:48 GMT -5
When Evans signed McCutchen and Longoria, I thought they were good, solid moves. When McCutchen left us, he had a pretty decent season. Rog -- I thought the Andrew signing was a good move, but as we discussed at the time, Longoria had been in decline since 2013, with a brief recovery in 2016. He won the 2017 AL Gold Glove at third base, but as we discussed at the time, he was no longer a true Gold Glove infielder. I thought the decision to trade for Evan was clearly too risky, even though the Rays did absorb some salary and also took Denard Span off the Giants' fans. Turns out the Rays were able to flip Denard profitably. Andrew would have been an even better Giant if not for injury and bad luck. And he was again good this season. I heard the Phillies' announcer talk about how much it hurt the Phils when he went down for the season. And the Giants were able to flip Andrew at last year's deadline, although they didn't fare overly well in the exchange. The Giants were in a position where they almost HAD to try the Longoria trade, but if one wants to see the risk involved, all he has to do is go to Evan's page at Fan Graphs, or even Baseball-Reference for a more traditional look. It's not at all hard to see, and I don't think it is a move that Farhan would have made. Again, Boly, I have excellent respect for your inside baseball knowledge, but I have a hard time seeing how important it is when you didn't see what I thought was a pretty obvious indictment of Evan. As I mentioned, the Giants almost HAD to make that type of deal, since their goal was to compete in 2018, but it was fraught with great risk. Now the good news is that prior to his injury this season Evan had begun to hit the ball better than since 2013. So there is hope. Maybe the Giants can trade Evan and sign Anthony Rendon, who is perhaps an even better hitter than his basic numbers show. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5463/new-kids#ixzz5wsQGXB65
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Aug 17, 2019 12:59:42 GMT -5
I've said before, the difference between stats geeks and baseball men is that the geeks feel it necessary to prove themselves superior. Baseball men are clear on what they know based on experience and therefore they need no confirmation from the outside. You can tell me I don't understand analytics and you would be right to an extent. But to make that out to meaning I don't understand baseball is ludicrous. There are obviously many methods to succeed in this game. I am more aligned with old school baseball than what today's game has become. Maybe that means my days following it are numbered. You guys say I'm a dinosour. I used to take offense to that but now I welcome it. Because as far as I'm concerned the game is going downhill, and no numbers dork is going to convince me othdrwise.
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