Does money buy championships?

[Rog]

Does money buy championships?  Not necessarily.

Last season the Yankees spent $50 million more than the Giants, yet didn't even come close to making the playoffs.  The Dodgers spent $75 million more, and advanced only one round further than the Giants.

Of the two teams that made the World Series, the Cubs spent just less than the Giants, and the Indians spent SEVENTY-FIVE million less.

To focus on three of the teams mentioned above, the Giants spent $50 million less than the Yankees, and yet made the playoffs and advanced to the first round.  The Indians spent $125 million less than the Yankees and barely lost the World Series.

It's hard to imagine throwing money at a problem hurts, but as we saw last season from the Yankees and Dodgers, money doesn't buy happiness -- or World Championships.  The more a team spends, the better its chances.  But it still remains just a chance.  Nothing approaching a guarantee.

And we haven't even talked about the  Tigers, who spent roughly $25 million more than the Giants and Cubs -- and more than $100 million more than the Indians -- and still didn't make the playoffs.  The Red Sox were right there with the Tigers, and they did make the playoffs -- only to be swept in the first round by the Indians, whose payroll was less than half the Red Sox's.

The three teams mentioned that didn't make the playoffs were baseball's three top spenders. The teams we mentioned that did generally spent a lot of money, but not all of them.  The Indians were the exception.

What they three playoff teams had in common was that each developed some very strong players internally.  While the Giants certainly shouldn't be cheap, perhaps what they should focus on most would be acquiring young talent and developing it.  The window is indeed closing, but if the Giants don't develop young talent, eventually it will not only close, it will slam shut.

Free agents and trade acquisition keep the machine strong.  Developing young talent keeps it RUNNING.

[sfgdood]

money must be spent wisely obviously. For the last few seasons lots of money has been wasted on Matt Cain and others. The main idea is if you're not spending money, you have to have the prospects to either develop or trade for the right pieces. The prospects the Giants have aren't developing into anything useful in either way. Therefore we are left to either spend money or wait out some bad seasons. I prefer not to wait

[Rog]

Therefore we are left to either spend money or wait out some bad seasons. I prefer not to wait


Rog -- Understandable, but the Giants aren't there yet. They do have a ton of guys who are right at their 30's, but not many who are well into them. Hunter Pence is the oldest, and if he can regain his health, we might look at his body as being a bit younger than his chronological age. I'm worried about Denard Span, but I don't see him an everyday player even now. We'll see more this season, but it appears to me that they would have been far better off signing Dexter Fowler, whom they might have been able to sign by giving up more years but not a lot more annual dollars to.

Boly says he's seen Dexter take his hitting into the field with him, but I've read that Dexter is a joy in the clubhouse. Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but my point is that I think Dexter would fit in just fine. The Giants' leaders should be able to reinforce him any time he appears likely to take bad at bats into the field.

I didn't like the signing of Jeff Samardzija either, but if he has a good year in 2017, he'll be both productive and tradable.

Meanwhile, the signing of Johnny Cueto has thus far been a blessing. Johnny gives the Giants two aces. Matt Moore is a fine, controllable signing. Will Smith may be better than Bruce Bochy realizes. Eduardo Nunez could be a gem, although his health became worrisome near the end of the season.

The time for the Giants to be prepared to put money into their payroll may be coming, but right now they'll enter the season with a fine chance of making the postseason. Depending on what the Dodgers do from here, they might even be the NL West favorites.

Winning it all appears difficult. There are no guarantees, of course, but just as the Giants dominated the postseason in the first half of the decade, the Cubs appear poised to have a chance to do so in the second half.

What's eventually very likely to happen is that the Giants will eventually have to become bad again so they can rebuild. They do have some hope that the farm system is poised to provide at least adequate players. One of the primary reasons the Giants likely chose Mark Melancon over the younger Kenley Jansen is that the Giants would have had to surrender their first-round draft choice had they signed Kenley.

Developing young talent is critical not only to keeping the talent pumped primed, but also for cost control. Even the Dodgers and Yankees can't afford just anyone they please.

If the Giants are already past the luxury tax threshold and have left budget for deadline trades, they've done more than we should expect. Every team, even the Dodgers and Yankees, are concerned about the luxury tax, and more teams are in or approaching it. I suspect the luxury tax will eventually reduce free agent salaries, particularly at the second-tier level and below. If they cant' sign top-tier free agents, more teams will do as the Giants are doing this coming season -- trying to fill positions from within to stay within the salary budget.

If it is bad season were are worried about, the time to spend will likely be a few years down the road. For now, Matt Cain's salary will come off the books a year from now (although his buyout is a steep $7.5 million). Hunter Pence is two years away from decision time. The Giants appear to be in a position where they will need to lose some salary in order to capitalize on the good free agent market expected a year from now and the excellent one expected the year after that.

Right now the issue is to be creative in surrounding the Giants' strong core. A few seasons down the road, it will be to replace that core. That is when the Giants will need to spend the money in order to avoid some bad seasons. Or maybe they'll just tough it out for three or four years as they did to build today's Giants.

There are no easy answers. Not even simply to spend.

One final point: Even as late as last season, there was at least one weak general manager to take advantage of. Some consider there are no bad GM's today. None. The GM's are far smarter and have much better tools than they had even a decade ago. Building a dynasty is becoming harder and harder.

Even the Cubs and Red Sox have to worry about each other. And the other 10 or so teams that pose a threat to them.


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[sfgdood]

So you want to wait. You must be ecstatic then because the Giants seem to be just fine with that. You're going to be hating my posts the next few years as we watch the Giants' championship pedigree blow away like dust in the wind

[klaiggeb]

I don't agree, Rog, that the Giants will have to become "bad" again...

I really don't.

Aggressive and smart front office moves can and SHOULD prevent this.

Aggressive in that they CONTINUE to do what they've done these last 2 seasons: Go out and SIGN the player(s) needed to ensure we're a good team, like Cueto, Meloncon and Smardizja.

Smart in that they DON'T fall into traps like they used to like signing over rated players like Aaron Rowand.

Smart in that they draft INTELLIGENTLY, and NOT making players like Gillaspie top draft choices.

Smart in that they make moves with the future in mind when they trade or draft.



Drafting players is really, a crap shoot.

You just don't know WHO has the mental make up to stand up to the pressures of playing at the top level, because it is NOT just based upon talent alone.

Smart in that when Bochy retires, which I predict will be soon, that the guy they select to replace him fits the 'team' profile which they have developed since 2010, and NOT just some big name.

Smart as in KNOWING when it's time to move on from players who've been "good Giants," like Angel Pagan, Javier Lopez, and others.


Nothing is guaranteed, but by being smart, and NOT giving over paying like they did to Huff as a reward for a good season, they have a solid, solid chance to continue to be a team that will always challenge for the pennant and World Series.

Smart.

Aggressive.

My two words.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Randy-The main idea is if you're not spending money, you have to have the prospects to either develop or trade for the right pieces. The prospects the Giants have aren't developing into anything useful in either way.

Boagie- This is the same tired rhetoric I've been hearing for a long time now.

You spouted it back when Brandon Crawford was in our system. He is now likely the best all-around shortstop in baseball. You said it when Joe Panik was coming up, he is one of the better second baseman, when healthy. You claimed it when Adam Duvall was in the minors, and now you think he's great.

Our prospects have landed some of the best talents in baseball in trades. Hunter Pence, Melky Cabrera, Matt Moore, Carlos Beltran Ect..

You are clearly interested in the here and now, and have no vision for the future.

Your comments are inaccurate, and show that you really don't follow the farm system very closely.

[Rog]

I don't agree, Rog, that the Giants will have to become "bad" again...

I really don't.

Aggressive and smart front office moves can and SHOULD prevent this.


Rog -- I understand what you're saying here, Boly. It's kind of what we were brought up to believe. But let's look at what made first top Giants team and the three most recent teams tick.

Let's start with 1962, and let's take just four names: Mays, McCovey, Marichal and Cepeda. Yes, the Giants traded for Jack Sanford. Billy O'Dell, Billy Pierce, Ed Bailey, Stu Miller and Old Harv, which put icing on the cake. But the core of the cake was two M's, a C, and a McC. Not to mention Felipe Alou, Tom Haller, Jimmy Davenport, Mike McCormick and Bobby Bolin.

In 2010 it was more Cain, Lincecum, Bumgarner and Posey than anything else. Take away those four guys, and the Giants would have been very unlikely to make even the playoffs. Wilson and Romo were two other home-grown players instrumental in two or more World Championships. From outside the Giants had Casilla, Pence, Javier Lopez, Angel Pagan and Gregor Blanco. Which group contributed more?

Which player contributed the most from the outside group? That was Hunter Pence, who was acquired for former second-round picks Tommy Joseph and Nate Schierholtz.

Let's take the Cubs and Red Sox, viewed as the top two teams in the majors now.

The heart of the Cubs that will make them strong the next many years are under-30's Kris Bryant, Kyle Schwarber, Anthony Rizzo, Addison Russell, Willson Contreras, Javier Baez, Kyle Hendricks and Hector Rondon. In almost every case, they are either home grown and were acquired for homegrown players.

The Cubs needed a closer last season? Just trade top prospects for Aroldis Chapman. Need to replace Chapman for 2017 when he goes back to the Yankees? Just trade your 24-year-old fourth outfielder for Wade Davis. Jon Lester, of course, came as a free agent. How did the Cubs have the money to sign him? Their top stars were going to play for relative peanuts, since most hadn't even reached arbitration.

Jake Arrieta came without much benefit from within.

How about the Red Sox? Seven of their eight everyday players are homegrown. Chris Sale just came over for ... top prospects. Rick Porcello didn't involve prospects, and David Price was signed in free agency. Craig Kimbrel and Tyler Thornburg came for ... prospects.

Why was it that the Giants couldn't do even more at last year's trade deadline or this winter? They don't have the top prospects necessary to get top players. And/or they're not willing to give up the semi-top prospects they do have because they don't have other ... top prospects. Perhaps the top reason the Giants didn't sign Kenley Jansen instead of Mark Melancon is that they didn't feel strong enough in prospects to trade away their first-round draft choice in 2017.

It isn't impossible to rebuild on the fly, but it's darn hard. The Giants won three World Championships primarily because they were lousy in 2005, 2005 and 2007. They might have used being lousy in 2008 to win another one, but when they traded #9 overall pick Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran, Beltran -- who up to that point had played more games for the Mets than any other player that year -- became injured.

To win it all, it usually takes prospects, and it usually takes a little luck.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships#ixzz4SpjZAWcV

[Rog]

Smart in that they draft INTELLIGENTLY, and NOT making players like Gillaspie top draft choices.


Rog -- The Giants did fabulously with top draft picks in Lincecum, Bumgarner and Posey. They were luck and/or good. They probably did well with Zack Wheeler, their last top 10 draft pick, although Zack has been too injured to show it. Then they started getting lower first-round picks.

One lower first-round pick they had already somewhat whiffed on was, as you mentioned, Gillaspie. Beginning with Gary Brown in 2010, the Giants haven't fared well with their first-round picks. They did do well with Joe Panik in 2011, and there is still time for some of the others to make it.

If we want to be thankful for the three World Championships, we can look first and foremost at three players -- the #10 overall draft picks in 2006 and 2007, and the #5 overall in 2008.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships?page=1#ixzz4Spz6FyHC

[Rog]

For the last few seasons lots of money has been wasted on Matt Cain and others.


Rog -- Good point, Randy. I also remember Aubrey Huff and Tim Lincecum. Part of the way the Giants have built chemistry has been by remaining loyal, but the cost is high if the players slide.

One bit of good news is that Matt will come off the books next year, saving a net $12.5 million ($20 million contract less a $7.5 million buyout). That allowed the Giants to extend the two Brandon's, whose salaries will go up a combined $14 million in 2018. It would be nice if Matt's leaving provided a ton of money to spend, but it's already been spent.

I realize your bias doesn't allow you to agree on Belt, but the Giants view the two Brandon's as cornerstones for the next half decade or so.




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[sfgdood]

I may actually follow the farm system too closely, Boagie. I have lived nearly all my life in the city of the "Little Giants." The top prospects are in my face unlike most of you guys. For all the Paniks and Duffys there have been twenty Gillaspies and Gary Browns that have broken my heart. But it has been a long time since we had a Bumgarner or Posey in the system that all of baseball KNEW would be a stud in the big leagues. In recent years I've seen pitcher after pitcher dominate in San Jose, only to fizzle in the high minor leagues. In general you guys only see the success stories but I see all the stories. Yes the scouts manage to find a gem here and there but in the "can't miss" department, we just aren't seeing it. I'm happy that we were able to trade a bunch of prospects for some nice players...but just once I want the rest of baseball to want a prospect that we consider untouchable. Then we keep Belt and trade a legit power hitter Duvall for that rent-a-bum Leake. We say we're going to be a big player in the International market but all we get is a young kid who we then trade. Meanwhile the Cubs, Dodgers and Nats have passed us and if we don't do something for the lineup, maybe the DBacks pass us too.

Here's the thing...Rog and others are happy with just "making the playoffs." I am not. I see our championship window closing quickly. Our leaders are getting old...Bochy is getting REALLY old. That's why the here and now is important to me. To me, making the playoffs and getting embarrassed by the Cubs is a BAD season. My expectations are higher. Maybe in a few more years without a title, just making the playoffs will be fine with me. Right now it isn't.

BTW...ask Rog, he'll tell you Crawford is mediocre.

[Rog]

By the way, Randy, you might get one of your wishes for Brandon Belt. If Giants top power prospect Chris Shaw develops, Belt might be moved to left field or simply moved. Shaw came to the Giants as compensation for the Red Sox signing Pablo Sandoval.

Wouldn't it be ironic if not re-signing the player you so desperately wanted to re-sign resulted in the trading of your new whipping boy? It is possible.

[Rog]

Speaking of Conor Gillaspie as we were, he was drafted by the Giants in the 2008 draft with the #37 pick in the first round. Conor never became a top prospect.

His younger brother Casey was drafted #20 overall in the 2014 draft by the Rays, and is now mlb.com's #9 overall prospect.

[Rog]

Smart.

Aggressive.


Rog -- You are right on the money, Boly. Unfortunately for the Giants, most front offices are becoming smarter and more aggressive.

Let's use the recent Sox trade as an example. The Red Sox are clearly going for it now in acquiring Chris Sale, perhaps one of the top five starters in the game. And the White Sox are clearly trying to rebuild quickly. The crown jewel from the White Sox standpoint is Yoan Moncada. Moncada is generally considered the #1 overall prospect in the game. He's the guy Mark and I (and others) wanted the Giants to sign a couple of winters ago.

Michael Kopek is one of the other three players the White Sox received. Some consider Kopek to be close to the top pitching prospect out there. MLB.com ranks Moncada #1 and Kopek #30 overall. This trade may have been a big win for both sides.

And the Red Sox were able to make it because they had two of the top prospects around.

[Rog]

I made a big mistake regarding Casey Gillaspie. He isn't ranked by MLB.com as the #9 prospect overall. He's ranked as the RAYS' #9 prospect.

[Islandboagie]

I may actually follow the farm system too closely, Boagie. I have lived nearly all my life in the city of the "Little Giants." The top prospects are in my face unlike most of you guys. For all the Paniks and Duffys there have been twenty Gillaspies and Gary Browns that have broken my heart. But it has been a long time since we had a Bumgarner or Posey in the system that all of baseball KNEW would be a stud in the big leagues. In recent years I've seen pitcher after pitcher dominate in San Jose, only to fizzle in the high minor leagues. In general you guys only see the success stories but I see all the stories. Yes the scouts manage to find a gem here and there but in the "can't miss" department, we just aren't seeing it. I'm happy that we were able to trade a bunch of prospects for some nice players...but just once I want the rest of baseball to want a prospect that we consider untouchable. Then we keep Belt and trade a legit power hitter Duvall for that rent-a-bum Leake. We say we're going to be a big player in the International market but all we get is a young kid who we then trade. Meanwhile the Cubs, Dodgers and Nats have passed us and if we don't do something for the lineup, maybe the DBacks pass us too.

Here's the thing...Rog and others are happy with just "making the playoffs." I am not. I see our championship window closing quickly. Our leaders are getting old...Bochy is getting REALLY old. That's why the here and now is important to me. To me, making the playoffs and getting embarrassed by the Cubs is a BAD season. My expectations are higher. Maybe in a few more years without a title, just making the playoffs will be fine with me. Right now it isn't.

BTW...ask Rog, he'll tell you Crawford is mediocre

Boagie- First off, I agree with the here and now approach when it comes to putting the Giants in a position to win the World Series again. I am much like you, I believe if they don't win it all they're a disappointment. What I really like about our current core of players is they believe the same thing.

Secondly, the Giants have had players that have been untouchable. Posey, Bumgarner and Lincecum were all definitely considered untouchable prospects. Those are 3 players in a span of 10 years that have been in Hall of Fame discussions. That's a remarkable drafting and developing record for such a short span.

Obviously Lincecum fell off, but his first 5 seasons were definitely Hall of Fame numbers. I think Posey has a very good chance of ending up there if he continues his case as a perennial gold glove catcher. Bumgarner might get there due to his amazing post season records and consistent regular season domination.

On a lesser scale, Crawford, Panik, Belt, Cain, Sandoval, Romo and Brian Wilson were also good prospects that I can assure you Sabean took calls from other GMs about.

Do they have any more top ten prospects in the system? Probably not, but that is the price you pay for winning. What has been impressive is their ability to still draft strong B prospects that make it to the major league level and contribute. Panik is a great example.

Of course, you're right that not everyone has amounted to greatness. Brown is a good example.

But I challenge you to find a more decorated core of players in a 10 year period than our current guys. Gold Gloves, Cy Youngs, All Star appearances, Silver Sluggers and MVPs. And some of those were acquired by players that were in the system when you said our system was dried up.

[Rog]

He is now likely the best all-around shortstop in baseball.


Rog -- Brandon Crawford has become a better hitter than I ever expected, and he may have become a better fielder than even the Giants expected. But he's probably not the best all-around shortstop in baseball. And I'm not meaning to slight Brandon when I say that. As you correctly mention, he's darn good. But suddenly there is a fabulous crop of shortstops out there, even as former ace Troy Tulowitzki fades.

You did mention "all-around," so if we rate offense and defense equally in our evaluation, one can indeed make an argument for Brandon there. Probably the only other guy who rates as highly or close to it on both offense and defense is Francisco Lindor. Lindor boasts a .306 career average and won the AL Gold Glove at shortstop. And he was just 22. Look at the ages on the young guys! Crawford is the 2nd-oldest.

By coincidence, an article citing the "new Gold age of shortstops" came out yesterday. The article stated that today's is the best crop of shortstops since the days of Jeter, Rodriguez and Garciaparra. Brandon was ranked fourth.


Here is how they went from #10 to #1

10. Jonathan Villar (25) -- 62 steals, 19 homers, .457 SLG, .826 OPS

9. Didi Gregorius (26) -- 20 homers, .447 SLG

8. Troy Tulowitzki (31) -- 24 homers, 79 RBI's

7. Trevor Story (23) -- 27 homers, .909 OPS despite missing two months

6. Addison Russell (22) -- 21 homers, 95 RBI's 22 defensive runs saved

5. Xander Bogaerts (23) -- 21 homers, 89 RBI's, 115 runs

4. Crawford (29) -- 82 RBI's, 28 defensive runs above average, Gold Glove, 11 triples

3. Carlos Correa (22) -- 20 homers, 96 RBI's

2. Francisco Lindor (22) -- ,301, 78 RBI's, 99 runs, 19 SB, 28 runs saved, Gold Glove, #9 in MVP balloting

1. Corey Seager (22) -- 26 homers, 105 runs, .877 OPS, 18 runs saved, ROY, #3 in MVP voting


And the list doesn't even include:

Elvis Andrus (27) -- .302, .800 OPS, 24 SB

Dansby Swanson (22) -- .303, .803 OPS in a small sample

Aledmys Diaz (25) -- .300, .879 OPS, 17 HR, 65 RBI, 71 runs in 2/3rds of a season

Tim Anderson (23) -- .283

Andrelton Simmons (26) -- .281, possibly the top defensive shortstop in the game (along with Crawford, Lindor and possibly Russell)

Asdrubal Cabrera (30) -- .280, .810 OPS


There was some spectacular shortstop play in 2016, most of it by the young guys. Brandon Crawford is indeed one of the game's top shortstops, but there are a dozen or so YOUNGER shortstops pushing him. It will be intriguing to see which shortstops falter, hold their own and improve this season. If it's anything like last season, we may be in a shortstop age with unparalleled depth.



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships?page=1#ixzz4Sq8N4pTr

[Rog]

Rog and others are happy with just "making the playoffs."


Rog -- We'd like the Giants to be the Cubs or Red Sox, but one has to be realistic and keep things in perspective. The 2012 Giants won the World Series after winning the NL West and finishing in a three-way tie for third in the majors in wins, but they didn't make the playoffs until the final day in 2010. In 2014, they might not have made the postseason had baseball not added a second wild-card team.

Three times in this decade the Giants made the playoffs -- three times just barely. Three of those four times they won it all. If the Giants make the playoffs, it's hard to be too disappointed. We'd all like a juggernaut, but no team has been as successful this decade in winning it all as have been the Giants.

One could argue that the Giants have been the best team of this decade, and you're complaining? That's like a child who complains that his Christmas toys weren't as good as the kid's down the street. That child too needs to grow up.




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[Rog]

Smart in that when Bochy retires, which I predict will be soon, that the guy they select to replace him fits the 'team' profile which they have developed since 2010


Rog -- Don't know if I would favor him or not, but your description shouts out Ron Wotus to me.




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[Rog]

Bruce (1789 wins now) should reach 2000 wins in three seasons, after which the decade will end. Depending on how the Giants fare in those three seasons, that might seem to him like a good time to retire.

Only 10 managers have 2000 wins. Retiring in three years might allow Bruce to move past Leo Durocher (2008 wins) and Walter Alston (2040 wins) into 9th place on the all-time list. Along with his World Championships, that certainly sounds like a Hall of Fame manager.

[Rog]

I don't think they've started yet this winter (actually fall right now), but the MLB Network ranks players by position and also managers and GM's. Bruce Bochy usually ranks very near the top, and Brian Sabean used to make the top 10 too. I remember one year when the Network said that there was no GM who generated more disparate opinions than Brian. Many seemed to love him or hate him. Not too many in the middle.

I will be intrigued to see how Bobby Evans fares. He has a very short track record, but few have acquired six players as good as Cueto, Samardzija, Span, Nunez, Moore and Smith in nine months as he did.

I found the comment that since Dave Stewart (implied) was replaced, there are no more bad GM's in the game. GM's used to be boozing buddies. Now they're just about all rather expert.

[sfgdood]

Three times in this decade the Giants made the playoffs -- three times just barely. Three of those four times they won it all. If the Giants make the playoffs, it's hard to be too disappointed. We'd all like a juggernaut, but no team has been as successful this decade in winning it all as have been the Giants.

One could argue that the Giants have been the best team of this decade, and you're complaining? That's like a child who complains that his Christmas toys weren't as good as the kid's down the street. That child too needs to grow up.

Dood - when we settle for "pretty good" what incentive are we giving the organization to be great? It's the kind of attitude that spawned the 100+ years of no championships for the Cubs. You go right ahead and be satisfied with being pretty good. I'm not going to join that party. Unlike you I don't see our title runs as being all about luck and that we need to be happy just making the playoffs. We have the leadership, the pedigree and most importantly, we have the revenue to expect the best. But if the organization is happy with just making the playoffs, then all hope for more parades in November goes out the window.

[Randy]

Unlike you I don't see our title runs as being all about luck and that we need to be happy just making the playoffs.


Rog -- Don't you think it would be fair for you to let me speak for myself instead of misquoting me? I have never stated that the Giants' title runs have been all about luck. What I have said is that PART of it has been luck. Even the Giants' not-completely-objective announcers agree with me on that.

Why do you continue to try to perpetuate a myth?




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships#ixzz4SqZzzCwh

[Rog]

if the organization is happy with just making the playoffs, then all hope for more parades in November goes out the window.


Rog -- 2010 and 2014 stand in stark rebuttal to your statement. Even in 2012, the Giants' 94 wins put them in a three-way tie for just the third-most wins in the majors.




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[Islandboagie]

Rog -- Brandon Crawford has become a better hitter than I ever expected, and he may have become a better fielder than even the Giants expected. But he's probably not the best all-around shortstop in baseball. And I'm not meaning to slight Brandon when I say that.

Boagie- Yes you are, because you say this every time someone says he's the best or even among the best. You used to question whether he was the best even defensively until the publications you worship deemed him so. Remember now, I said likely he's the best all around, not that it was a guarantee.

Is he the best offensively? Probably not. But you have to consider also the park Crawford plays in. Lindor and Correa play in hitter friendly parks, I think this narrows the offensive gap. But in my opinion Seager is probably the best offensively. But we're not talking offensively, we're talking all around. Defensively, Seager is average.

Back to Crawford..

Who has a better throwing arm?

Who can turn double plays better?

Who has more post-season heroics?

Lindor has him on speed, no question. But when Tim Flannery was asked who the best base runner he'd ever coached was, his answer was, you guessed it, Brandon Crawford.

If we consider his great base running, flashy but smart defense, and his ability to go the other way with pitches, I believe Crawford's baseball instincts are likely the best.

For me, considering everything, I think that gives a better balance of all around ability to Crawford, while the others are also very good in their own right.

[Rog]

With all the young shortstops I mentioned, I left out perhaps the best one of all -- although he usually plays third base. Manny Machado has played shortstop, and he would have the potential to be one of the best ever. Of course, Corey Seager may have that potential as well. Maybe Carlos Correa as well.

[Rog]

Rog -- Brandon Crawford has become a better hitter than I ever expected, and he may have become a better fielder than even the Giants expected. But he's probably not the best all-around shortstop in baseball. And I'm not meaning to slight Brandon when I say that.

Boagie- Yes you are, because you say this every time someone says he's the best or even among the best. You used to question whether he was the best even defensively until the publications you worship deemed him so. Remember now, I said likely he's the best all around, not that it was a guarantee.


Rog -- I later amended my statement to say that if one considers both offense and defense, the only player who was in Brandon's category was probably Francisco Lindor.

As for Brandon's fielding, it keeps improving, and he may indeed be the best. I'm still not sure Andrelton Simmons isn't the best, but Brandon certainly made it close in 2015 and might have gone around Simmons last season.

I apologize for over-reacting to your original statement. I was thinking you were talking about the best shortstop in the business, which I doubt is Brandon, but you were talking OVERALL, and Brandon is indeed a very fine player offensively and defensively. As you later mention, he's also a fine base runner.

I admire the heck out of Brandon. Aside from his talents on the field, I just like the way he plays. He stays very cool, and he seems to be an intelligent player. More than anything besides he fabulous defense and his clutch offensive play, his cool stands out.

I'm not sure anyone knows just how important defense is. The more important we consider it to be, the closer Brandon comes to being baseball's best shortstop. Especially when we consider how clutch his hitting is.

Not too many players consistently hit much better in key situations than overall, but Brandon certainly seems to qualify for that group.

Take a look at his career stats:

No one on .230/.296/.367/.663

Men on .277/.344/.423/.767

RISP .256/.344/.410/.754

Late & close .222/.299/.367/.667

High leverage .258/.322/.415/.738


With the exception of late and close situations, Brandon hits far better in clutch situations. The late and close situations may be explained by Brandon's not hitting power pitchers well, and he faces a lot of hard-throwing relievers late in games that are close. But look at how MUCH better he has hit in the clutch overall.

One thing I do want to remind you of Boagie is that when I said Brandon wouldn't be a great hitter, he was hitting .370 with an OPS over 1.000 at San Jose. It was clear that neither the people of San Jose nor the Giants should get nearly as excited as those numbers might indicate. I mostly didn't like his K/BB ratio.

The past two seasons he's become a better hitter than I expected him to be, but overall he's been about what I expected. Maybe I overreacted, but let's not forget the context. Brandon hit 45 points higher than Buster Posey at San Jose, and his OPS was 100 points higher. My main point was that Brandon wasn't Buster.

And of course, he hasn't been. But how much better he has hit in the clutch has been very impressive. If Buster could hit that much better in the clutch, he wouldn't just be a great hitter for a catcher. He'd pretty much simply be a great hitter.

One thing about Buster to remember. Even in his down season, I think his OPS was as much above that of the average catcher as just about any other Giant compared to his position. Brandon Belt had easily the highest OPS on the team, but first base is a high-OPS position. Catcher is low-OPS. Until recently, so was shortstop.

Which bring me back to my original point that the number of young shortstops who are hitting and to a lesser extent fielding well is amazing. We do seem to be entering a Golden Era of shortstops. It could turn around, of course, but it certainly looks promising for the game.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships?page=1#ixzz4SvYk6DVu

[sfgdood]

you defended that rat bastard Terry Collins leaving Crawford off the AS team when no rational person would do that to someone who is the best overall at his position and who also is leading the league in RBI.

[Rog]

You may recall that at the time we discussed that the decision to leave Brandon off the All-Star team was more a result of the system than the person who made the decision. The two things that made it tough to include were:

. The fans voted in Addison Russell, who is a very good shortstop, but not one who should have been starting and probably not one who should even been on the roster when a player is required from each team.

. The requirement that each team have a player on the roster.

One can make an argument for each of those things. The game is for the fans, so why not let them vote in the starters? I'm less behind that than having a player from every team on the roster. I remember all the years the Warriors didn't have a player on the NBA All-Star roster, and it wasn't very much fun.

Getting back to Crawford.

Well, he wasn't going to get on the team because the Giants needed a representative. In Posey, Bumgarner and Posey, they already had three.

Russell was going to be there, and Corey Seager was too, since he was good enough to finish 3rd in the MVP voting. Heck, an All-Star team could conceivably have only two shortstops, although three makes more sense. So that left one more opening.

Maybe Collins should have chosen Brandon over Aledmys Diaz. The Cardinals did already have a representative in Matt Carpenter, so Diaz didn't have to go. On the other hand, the Cardinals were a darn good team to have only one representative on the team, and the Giants already had four.

How about how the players had performed by July 5th, the day the starters were announced?

Diaz was hitting .314 with a .901 OPS. Crawford was hitting .270 with a .771 OPS. I believe Trevor Story finished ahead of Brandon in the voting, and he was hitting .259 with an .852 OPS. Story had already hit 19 homers.

So one can make an argument for Diaz, Crawford or Story. Even though he wound up the season with 95 RBI's, the guy who shouldn't have gone was Russell -- but he had to go because the fans had voted him the starter.

We can agree with Collins or not on his choice of Diaz over Crawford, but Collins didn't load up the All-Star roster with Mets to the extent Bruce Bochy loaded it up with Giants in 2011. Collins had four Mets on the 2016 roster, while Bochy had five Giants on the roster in 2011.

If we want to blame someone for Crawford's not being included on the All-Star roster, we should blame the fans.

[klaiggeb]

And I DO blame the fans FIRST AND FORMOST.

Remember, I call it the ALL STAR FARCE.

It's a popularity contest, nothing more for the fans.

Screw them.

Pick the players having all star SEASONS.

boly

[Rog]

And even picking the player with All-Star seasons is a tough one. Do we pick the player having the best season, or the best PLAYER? I think it's kind of a combination of both, but there will almost always be wide differences of opinion.

And almost no matter how many players they put on the All-Star roster, it seems as if someone -- and usually someones -- get snubbed. Randy's point about Brandon Crawford's not being selected to the All-Star team this past season is a good one, but one can make a strong case for Trevor Story to be on the team as well.

Just as he can make one for Corey Seager and Aledmys Diaz. Especially when someone not particularly deserving such as Addison Russell is chosen to start, worthy players will miss out. There are just too many who are worthy.

And especially these days at shortstop, a position where players performed a lot better last season than they did just the year before. In 2015, no shorstop in either league had a higher OPS than Brandon Crawford's .782. Last season seven players did, and six of them were above .800, which is historically a very high OPS for a shortstop.