|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 15, 2016 21:07:00 GMT -5
Rog, I don't often say this, but you are right on point here. Collins was forced to pick someone else and he even came out and said Crawford deserved to go.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 15, 2016 23:52:34 GMT -5
In Posey, Bumgarner and Posey, they already had three.
Dood - that looks more like two to me
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 15, 2016 23:54:41 GMT -5
Collins wasn't FORCED into anything. I don't care what anyone says...there is NO WAY Crawford should have been left off that team and Collins knows it. He's a rat's ass.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2016 13:38:46 GMT -5
Collins wasn't FORCED into anything. I don't care what anyone says...there is NO WAY Crawford should have been left off that team and Collins knows it. He's a rat's ass. Rog -- You are right on the money, Randy. Terry Collins wasn't forced into anything, but he was put in a tough position, one where his choice was likely to be second-guessed in at least two cities. Although he would ultimately wind up the season with 95 RBI's and probably be the second-best NL fielder at shortstop, at that time, Addison Russell didn't deserve to go. But the fans voted him in. So now Collins had four players for two spots. A strong argument could be made for any of the four. Corey Seager was the obvious first choice to play behind Russell. He is quite possibly the best shortstop in the game, easily won the NL Rookie of the Year Award and finished #3 in the MVP voting. If it is an insult to Brandon Crawford not to make the All-Star team, it would probably have been an even bigger one to a player who is quite possibly a future Hall of Famer. So that left Collins with three well-qualified applicants. I think we all agree here that Brandon Crawford was the next-best candidate due to his outstanding fielding. He also had more than 50 RBI's. But what about Trevor Story, whose had, what, 19 homers?, and whose OPS was well beyond Brandon's. How about Diaz, one of those Cuban players you would so like the Giants to draft? Diaz had an OPS over .900, meaning he was hitting like a Hall of Famer outfielder. On second thought, perhaps at that time Diaz did deserve it even more than Crawford. Let's just say it was close between the two, and that Story wasn't woefully behind. Here's what I think, Randy. I think you are looking at this with blinders one. At the time and now twice it was told to you that the fans' voting for Russell created the problem and that there were several other qualified candidates. You appear to be able to see only Crawford. Not that it mattered at the time the All-Star team was chosen, but let's see what each player's resume was at the end of the Season: Seager -- no-brainer pick among shortstops, since he was the ROY and #3 in the MVP voting. Crawford -- slumped horribly the second half of the season but won the Gold Glove and might be the best-fielding shortstop in the game. Diaz -- Hit .300 with a spectacular .879 OPS, which was two points higher than even Seager. Might have challenged Russell for the most RBI's had he not missed a quarter of the season. Let's put this guy in perspective. In 2015 Crawford led the league in OPS at .782. Diaz's 2016 OPS fell just three points of being 100 points higher. In other words, one could make an argument that Diaz was better than the 2015 Crawford, and the 2015 Crawford was perhaps better than the 2016 version. Story -- As if this story weren't tough enough already. Well, you get the idea. Story too became injured and missed over a third of the season, but he wound up with the highest OPS of any shortstop in recent history -- .909. Pro-rated over 162 games, he would have hit 45 homers. Forty-five homers! We're crying alligator tears over Crawford not making the All-Star team? What about the guy who might have hit more homers than any shortstop since Alex Rodriguez? Sorry to be picking on you, Randy, but you might want to step back a bit and look at this situation and others with a broader focus. You get something in your mind, you can't back it up in a detailed manner, and yet you cling stubbornly to your point of view. Sure, Crawford deserved to be on the All-Star team. But the choice was less than clear, and he wasn't the only one snubbed. With the possible exception of Russell, Brandon is CLEARLY the best defensive shortstop. Other than Russell, who might be close enough to at least be in the broader picture you should be looking at, Brandon is FAR ahead of the others. But while Crawford has made massive improvements in his hitting, last season Seager, Diaz and Story were FAR better than he. Look at the whole picture. And if you still believe Crawford should have been a no-brainer choice over both Diaz and Story, back your belief up. Don't simply say Crawford was robbed. SHOW us HOW he was robbed. And quit calling Collins names that could just as easily be applied to you yourself. I'm not saying you are a "rat bastard." I'm saying Collins isn't either. Once you get down on someone though, it appears you try to make a caricature out of him. You tell us your life rocks, and I hope it does. But that is hard to believe when you continually put others down without even backing your statements up. Merry Christmas, and I truly do hope your world rocks. If so, think how much MORE it could rock if you merely tried to be objective half as hard as you try to put others down. Think how much more you could learn if your mind was open. If your life rocks now, it would have a shot at the Rock Hall of Fame (although I wouldn't wish Cleveland on you). Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships#ixzz4T1dT6nmV
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2016 14:18:32 GMT -5
Segar didn't deserve it. He's a rookie and rookies need to wait their turn, IMO. There were Dodgers already on the team. But even if you want to keep the extra Dodger on the team instead of the extra Giant, there are always ways. IMO if you're not going to make Crawford a reserve IF or a replacement for an injured player than he definitely deserved WAY MORE than Belt to be a vote in candidate. There are many ways to put your best players on the team even if an undeserving player is voted a starter. But Collins didn't care about putting the best players on the roster because he's a steaming pile of dung.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2016 14:23:39 GMT -5
Story is a hacker. He hits lots of HRs in Denver...DENVER!! Thats the only reason he got any consideration. Diaz had a good average but defensively and production wise, he fell short of Craw...plus, like Segar he's a rookie and needs to pay his dues before bypassing proven veterans.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2016 16:46:37 GMT -5
Story is a hacker. He hits lots of HRs in Denver...DENVER!! Thats the only reason he got any consideration. Diaz had a good average but defensively and production wise, he fell short of Craw...plus, like Segar he's a rookie and needs to pay his dues before bypassing proven veterans.
Rog -- Before I get into these statements one by one, let me ask you to step back and realize your focus is too narrow here. You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject and rather than look at its complexity, simply try to shove your narrow viewpoint down our throats (which are already full of Christmas hors d'ouvres, pumpkin pie and fruit cake).
As for Story, I'm not completely sold on him, but prior to being hurt he certainly had a very good season in 2016. Kind of Ernie Banks-like. You're right that he hit more homers in Denver than on the road, but he still hit them at about a 35 HR pace on the road, which is just eight fewer than Crawford's top three seasons combined. Take away the first three games of Rockies road trips after coming from Coors Field (when Rockies hitters are still adjusting to the bigger break on pitches than in Coors), and he hit them even faster on the road than at home.
This is an oversimplification, but do you choose Ernie Banks for your All-Star team, or Brandon Crawford? It should be noted that "Ernie Banks" (Story) wasn't chosen either. Perhaps we should be most upset because STORY wasn't chosen (although I'm not personally).
As for Diaz, no question he isn't the fielder that Brandon is, but as for production? Last season Crawford had an RBI every 6.25 at bats. Diaz had one every 6.21 at bats, or slightly better than Brandon. Last season Diaz's 71 runs scored surpassed Crawford's 67 even though Brandon had 149 more at bats. Brandon wins handily on fielding, but he doesn't win on production.
Rookies need to pay their dues before they become All-Stars? That gets down to the question of, do we select the best PLAYERS or the players having the best year? There are significant differences of opinion on that.
As for which player has been best over his career, while Crawford's career has been many times longer than Diaz's, Story's and Seager's, Brandon's career OPS is .712, which pales in comparison to Seager's .892, Story's .909 and Diaz's .879. Brandon has been much better of late, but he's been an average hitter over his career. The other three have hit at Hall of Fame levels.
Despite his so-so career hitting, one can make a very fine argument for Brandon here. But one can also make a strong argument for the other four. Calling Terry Collins a "rats'ass" for not choosing Crawford isn't at all justified. Now, if Terry were to criticize you for making a similar decision by calling you a rat's ass," I would agree that he might deserve the term, although it's not one I would stoop to using.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2016 16:49:50 GMT -5
Rog, I don't often say this, Rog -- You don't say it nearly often enough!
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 16, 2016 18:09:31 GMT -5
For those still questioning Aledmys Diaz's being chosen for the 2016 All-Star team, he is a good enough hitter that he's being projected for the #3 spot in the Cardinals' order this season.
Hey, ALL the guys we're talking about here are good (or at least were last season). Again this year there quite possibly will be one or more deserving NL shortstops left off the roster -- especially if one who may not deserve inclusion is voted in as the starter. I hope one of the odd men out isn't Brandon Crawford, but if it is, we should probably take it with the same grace Brandon himself showed with he was left off last year's team.
When I started the thread on how many good shortstops there were last season (many if not most of them young), didn't that spark at least a little thought that some good shortstops will likely be left off the All-Star team in coming years?
He got off to a very slow start last season, but #3 NL MVP vote getter Joey Votto was left off the 2016 All-Star team, opening the way for Adam Duvall. Despite the slow start, the first baseman's OPS on July 5th was .855. Why no outcry for Joey?
Almost every season, deserving players get left off the All-Star team. With fan voting, at least one player from every team, and the large number of deserving players, it's bound to happen much of the time.
I'm not certain of this, but I believe I remember players winning awards at the end of the season who weren't even selected as a backup to that year's All-Star team. Such was the case with Crawford, who won both the Gold Glove and the Wilson Defensive Player of the Year at shortstop and who was 12th in the MVP voting. We should note though that the hitting among NL shortstops improved so much that Brandon didn't win another Silver Slugger, and probably wasn't even close.
When we get down to the bottom line, isn't it more important how well Brandon plays for the Giants than the awards he does or doesn't win and the All-Star teams he's either chosen or not chosen for?
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 18, 2016 16:56:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you're trying to make a case for other shortstops being more deserving, because they really weren't. Crawford just came off a season in which he won the silver slugger and the gold glove. He wasn't just the best in the NL, he was arguably the best in baseball.
Why I don't fault Collins is because of the stupid online voting that allowed the Cubs fans to dominate the voting process and there's pressure on the manager to have every team represented.
I'll also include that the mainstream media is largely at fault. If Crawford were given the amount of publicity that he deserved after a fabulous season he would have made it just like the other media darlings did.
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 18, 2016 19:08:59 GMT -5
I don't give Collins a pass...he's a jackass
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 19, 2016 17:25:37 GMT -5
You're a jackass too Randy, and we constantly give you a pass.
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2016 22:33:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you're trying to make a case for other shortstops being more deserving, because they really weren't. Crawford just came off a season in which he won the silver slugger and the gold glove. He wasn't just the best in the NL, he was arguably the best in baseball. Rog -- Aside from Seager< I'm not making an argument that any shortstop was better by the All-Star game than Crawford. I was making a case that there were also other deserving guys. If'we're talking solely about 2015, I agree with you he might have been the best. If we're talking about the entire season of 2016, there were others who were at least as good if not better. In the National League, Seager is in a class by himself. Incidentally, you did see the thread about all the fine young shortstops who have hit the majors recently, right? Brandon may indeed have been the best in 2015, but in 2016 he had a lot of company. You did see the Cliff Notes version of the article about the 10 top shortstops I posted, right? It rated Brandon #4 in baseball and #2 in the NL. In fairness, the board has been highly critical of Brandon Belt for not driving in runs. In the second half of the season, when almost all the Giants' hitters were slumping, Belt drove in 35 runs, while Crawford knocked in only 23. Belt hit well with runners on base and in scoring position all season long. Crawford did so in the first half, but not the second. Hey, I really like Brandon Crawford. At this point in his career, he's pretty much a model player. But he is far from the only good shortstop around. One way to look at it might be that Seager, Lindor and Correa (plus Machado when he plays shortstop) are elite. Brandon may head up the next tier. He's darn good. But he has a lot more company now than he had a year ago. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/3637/money-buy-championships?page=2#ixzz4TLRtrgo6
|
|
|
Post by Rog on Dec 19, 2016 22:34:49 GMT -5
|
|
sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
|
Post by sfgdood on Dec 20, 2016 12:44:10 GMT -5
Didn't know you felt that way Boagie. Don't worry then. You won't have to give any more passes. If my openness is too much for you all to handle I'll take my opinions elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 20, 2016 13:16:10 GMT -5
I was just kidding with you, Randy. Don't be so emotional. We can all be jackasses at times.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 20, 2016 14:10:04 GMT -5
Me, too!
I have more than a few "jackass" moments in my life!
boly
|
|