Zobrist

[Islandboagie]

Tampa Bay Rays could be on the brink of entering full-blown rebuilding mode, if they haven’t already. According to Peter Gammons via his website, the Rays are exploring a potential trade that would send veteran utility man Ben Zobrist to the San Francisco Giants in exchange for prospects. Zobrist has been linked to the Giants several times over the past six months, including twice this offseason, as Bay Area Sports Guy had also previously attained information indicating the defending World Champs do in fact have interest.

The Giants’ relatively lackluster offseason comes as a bit of surprise, considering that San Francisco has been touted baseball’s new-age dynasty. The Giants’ inability to attract marquee free agents could be chalked up to a variety of factors, like tax rate differences between California and other states, which supposedly had an impact on Jon Lester‘s decision. Proximity to home has also seemed to be a difference-maker, as presumptuous reports alluded to following Pablo Sandoval‘s departure.


For whatever reason, the Giants haven’t been at the forefront of big-time free agent acquisitions this offseason, but they have efficiently filled three roster gaps by re-signing setup man Sergio Romo and starter Jake Peavy to two-year contracts, as well as adding third baseman Casey McGehee via trade. Although it’s true that Peavy won’t post numbers on the level with Lester and McGehee won’t duplicate Sandoval’s power production, the Giants remain capable of contending for a postseason berth in 2015, especially if Matt Cain is able to rekindle past success.

So, where does Zobrist factor into the equation?

Bench depth was the Giants’ biggest issue entering the 2014 regular season. After a torrid 43-21 start, it seemed like a moot point— that is, until injuries began to pile up. The Giants’ rotation remains iffy after Madison Bumgarner and Cain (if healthy). The everyday lineup is also less potent with the subtraction of the “Kung Fu Panda.” This culmination of these realities means the Giants need as much depth as possible. Zobrist’s versatility as a corner outfield and middle infield option can help deepen the Giants’ roster.

Zobrist would likely see most of his playing time in left field if he were to be attained by the Giants. The 33-year-old veteran has played just 66 games while totaling 309.1 innings in left, but he owns a respectable 2.56 range factor per nine innings. In comparison, the recently departed Michael Morse owns an ugly 1.77 RF/9 in left. Zobrist has logged nearly 2,800 innings as an outfielder, most of which have come in right field.

Zobrist makes sense for the Giants for multiple reasons. His versatility as a defender makes him an asset to Bruce Bochy‘s style of managing. He’s also free agent eligible after the 2015 season, which means the Giants would only be on the hook for $7.5 million. The Giants are a perfect trade suitor with the Rays, given Tampa’s desire to add young pitching talent and the Giants’ rich class of highly-touted minor league hurlers.

[sfgdood]

oh dear...can my heart take all this excitement?

[rxmeister]

Be a contrarian all you want, Dood, Ben Zobrist is a really good acquisition and I'd love to see it happen. Any fan who pays attention to advanced stats knows how good this guy is, and the fact that Sabean is pursuing him shows how much he's improved as a GM when it comes to statistical analysis. Remember when they used to call the Giants "brain dead hackers?" Have you noticed the difference between those teams and the one we have now? Those rings aren't just a coincidence. The Giants have really improved their approach on the type of players they acquire.

[sfgdood]

As I said before...when they are able to squeak their way into the playoffs, I'm confident they can go far...but all these mediocre Billy Beane-esque Punchin Judy OBP guys do not inspire confidence during the regular season...

[rxmeister]

Punch and Judy Zobrist has hit 20 HR's or more three times in his career, which is one more time than the "slugging" third baseman that they lost, Pablo Sandoval. He combines that with getting on base. Pablo only once walked more than 50 times in a year and that was his first full season in the majors. He hasn't done it since. Zobrist has walked more than 90 times on three different occasions. He also steals bases. To say he's a better player than you think is an understatement of massive proportions.

[rxmeister]

That being said, Gammons article makes it seem like everyone thinks Zobrist to the Giants SHOULD happen but it's not known if they're presently talking. They were talking earlier for sure, but they might have been looking at him as their third baseman, not their left fielder.

[sfgdood]

well given that Zobrist is 5 years older than our departed 3rd baseman and his power has gone down to nearly as non-existent as Casey McGehee's in recent years it's very understandable why one would dispute your wish to paint him as a legitimate power threat...not to mention the fact that the indoor bandbox in Tampa is a far cry from the windy pitcher's paradise called AT&T Park.

Oh and Zobrist is another postseason choker, with an OPS in the low 600s and an OBP under 300

[rxmeister]

Barry Bonds and A.Rod were post season chokers too, all the way until they weren't. Considering the fallibility of small sample sizes, there's a good chance that Zobrist is due for a big post season and Pablo is due to fall on his sizable rump. Pablo hit .176 in the 2010 post season by the way. If the Giants had traded him after that season you would have said good riddance to that playoff choker!

[sfgdood]

If Zobrist could deliver what Bonds and ARod did in the regular season, I'd be all FOR him being acquired.

[Rog]

I'm just going to come out and say it, Randy. You talk as though you don't have a clue.

Clearly you didn't back on 8/2/12 when you said the Giants were dead. That was as far off as when Dodgers manager Burt Shotten made the same statement about the Giants in 1951. Sorry to compare you to a Dodger, but you made the same foolish mistake.

I have analyzed why you are so far off this off-season. You think the Giants have a ton of money and should be spending it. You conveniently forget that they're not only paying for their own stadium, they're pre-paying it. And that unlike the Dodgers, they don't have an $8 billion TV contract.

So you start out on the wrong premise that the Giants can spend more money, even though you have been shown for over a month that isn't the case. Since you think they can spend more money, you're disappointed that they haven't acquired better players, players who aren't affordable.

I do get the feeling the Giants would have/would stretch the budget for a special situation as they likely viewed Sandoval and Lester and may view Moncada. But if you look at the budget expected here, it showed a bigger increase than in any year since 2011, when they were able to make a large payroll increase since they were coming off a down period into a very successful period and had seen their 2010 payroll grow by only $6 million since 2005.

But barring a special situation, you do realize it's very hard to replace $50 million plus of players with around $30 million? I think you were expecting to see them spend $50 million or more to do the replacements.

So how have the Giants done? Jake Peavy certainly isn't a first-tier pitcher, but he's solid 2nd-tier guy. Sergio Romo is a first-tier reliever. Casey McGehee is an OK third baseman.

It would be nice to add another starter, but the Giants are going to give that job to Tim Lincecum, and I hope his working with his dad will pay results. If not, did you know that Yusmeiro Petit had the lowest average against right-handed hitters of any pitcher in the league? His curve ball is an excellent pitch.

So that leaves left field. Ben Zobrist isn't the perfect left fielder, but he's a very good player who is versatile to boot. He could play just about anywhere aside from catcher and shortstop, and he's even played shortstop a bit.

The Giants are exploring left field options, and Zobrist might not be a bad way to go. The Giants would basically have both him and McGehee on a one-year trial. They could then re-sign neither, either or both.

There are other options, as well.

Hey, am I like you in that I wish the Giants could have done better? Of course. But given their financial constraints, I think they're doing pretty well.

I'm a little iffy about Romo, since I don't like putting much money into relievers. But perhaps the Giants aren't as sold on the young relievers' being ready in 2015. Plus, Jeremy Affeldt's contact is up a year from now, and Santiago Casilla's could be, as well.

Meanwhile, you are judging the Giants' off-season moves before they even through.

I think you should consider their constraints. (You don't think not having to pay off their stadium or instead having an $8 billion dollar TV contract would make a difference?) I also think you should wait until they're finished to make your judgment.

I'm trying to be as nice as possible about this, Randy, but you seem to be ignoring reality.

[Rog]

As for trading prospects, I'm becoming even more concerned with Kyle Crick. Fabulous stuff, but he can't put it where he wants it.

2014 1st-round pick Tyler (?) Beede is ranked the Giants' #2 prospect now. He too has difficulty with his command, but I don't think his problem there is as great as Crick's.

Andrew Susac is ranked #3, so we know both Crick and Beede are highly regarded. Gary Brown made the list this year at #20. Many other players of various skills are in between, with pitching still being the primary strength.

My bottom line is that I think the Giants have prospects I wouldn't mind parting with. Because Zobrist has only one year left on his contract, I wouldn't go overboard to acquire him though. Randy is right that Ben's power has waned some, and he is likely past his prime.

Still, Zobrist is a very good player who has value and would cost only $7.5 million in 2015. I was thinking of someone more powerful, but if the Giants don't have to give up too much, he would certainly fit the bill. I think my first choice would be to trade Crick if that could be done to acquire a very good player. But if he's that good, the player might well be too affordable.

I think of Zobrist as more of a second baseman than an outfielder, but I think Ben may actually have played more outfield than infield. If the Giants acquire him, I don't think we should be disappointed. Zobrist has been a better player than Pablo Sandoval over the past three seasons. I don't know that he will necessarily be better in 2015, but I don't think there's much question Ben has been better over the past three seasons.

Even if we throw in Pablo's postseasons.

[sfgdood]

Rog - I'm just going to come out and say it, Randy. You talk as though you don't have a clue.

Dood - and so it comes back to personal attacks and name-calling. Guess that makes you a hypocrite on top of being a pompous stats geek.

Goodbye

[Rog]

I probably got carried away, but at least I had the sense to say you talk as though you don't have a clue, not that you don't.

I guess it just comes down to cup-half-full vs. cup-half-empty, but it seems your cup is too often empty.

If the Giants are to improve this season, it will likely come from better health, including the return of Angel Pagan and Matt Cain. It's almost impossible to say the Giants have improved by their moves this off-season or even that they will have done so when they finish.

Unless they still sign James Shields, which seems unlikely, they won't have improved their roster. That said, players such as a full seasons from Cain, Pagan, Joe Panik and Brandon Belt, plus anything in the way of a bounce back by Tim Lincecum could still give the Giants a better TEAM.

Let's say the Giants do wind up trading for Ben Zobrist. Which lineup do you prefer:

CF Gregor Blanco

2B Joe Panik

C Buster Posey

RF Hunter Pence

3B Pablo Sandoval

1B Brandon Belt

LF Travis Ishikawa/Juan Perez

SS Brandon Crawford

or

CF Angel Pagan

2B Joe Panik

C Buster Posey

RF Hunter Pence

1B Brandon Belt

3B Casey McGehee

LF Ben Zobrist

SS Brandon Crawford

The two lineups are similar, but the first has Gregor Blanco, Pablo Sandoval and Travis Ishikawa/Juan Perez, while the second has Angel Pagan, Casey McGehee and Ben Zobrist. I think most would say the latter has clearly better balance and is the better overall.

What was their trademark when the Giants were hitting well last season? They talked about lineup LENGTH and "keeping the line moving." Those two things are more likely with the second lineup than the first.

Defensively, the two seem about the same.

With the arrival of Matt Duffy and the return of Ehire Adrianza, the bench seems better.

A rotation of Bumgarner, Cain, Peavy, Hudson and Lincecum seems somewhat better than Bumgarner, Peavy, Hudson, Vogelsong and Lincecum. We'd all take Cain over Vogelsong, wouldn't we?

The bullpen is pretty much the same except that you, Randy, have said they now have young pitchers ready to move up, giving the bullpen more depth. The Giants now know what Yusmeiro Petit can do, which should also provide an edge. If Lincecum falters this season, Petit will likely get the call more quickly.

The one possible flaw in the argument here is that the Giants had Mike Morse most of last season. A lineup that includes Blanco, Sandoval and Morse likely IS better than one with Pagan, McGehee and Zobrist -- although the latter now becomes the better defensively.

But you have said that the Giants weren't lucky in the post season, and they won primarily with Ishikawa/Juan Perez, not Morse, in left field.

The Giants will likely start this season with a better team than the one that finished last season with a World Series win. Is that a problem?

[Rog]

Anyway, Randy, I certainly wasn't trying to drive you away. What I was trying to do was get you to either wait until the Giants finish their moves this off-season or to explain your position in detail instead of saying things like "oh dear...can my heart take all this excitement?"

Comments like that seem to imply that you don't have an argument, so you have to resort to hyperbole. That's why I said you sound like you don't have a clue -- even though I know that you in fact do.

I wasn't trying to drive you away. I was trying to get you to explain your position. It's frustrating to me and likely others to have you take a strong, negative position and then back it up mostly with hyperbole.

If the Giants sign Zobrist, I see them not as having better players than last season, but having the chance to keep some key players healthy and productive for the entire season.

Think of the team that won the World Championship. They didn't have Pagan or Cain, and they didn't have Morse in the lineup on an everyday basis.

Do you prefer Blanco, Sandoval, Ishikawa/Perez and Vogelsong or Pagan, McGehee, Zobrist (perhaps) and Cain? Personally, I've got to go with the latter. You're criticizing the Giants for having the latter (or something similar) instead of the former.

I don't think that is a valid criticism. Three out of four of those positions have been improved. Even if we put in Morse for Ishikawa/Perez, I don't see much of a drop off. Throw in the potential of much more health, a deeper bench and a bullpen with more youngsters ready to step in, and I think we're looking at a team that has a chance.

Yes, the Padres look improved, and the Dodgers may be. But even if the Giants finish behind both of them, they can still make the post season. And it would seem there is a decent chance the Giants will beat out at least ONE of them.

Things don't always turn out as they seem, but it would appear the Giants, Dodgers, Padres, Pirates, Cubs and Cardinals are competing for four post season slots. That would mean the Giants would need only to have a record better than two of the five other teams.

Assuming they add a productive left fielder, don't the 2015 Giants appear capable of that?

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2639/zobrist?page=1#ixzz3N68omYzy

[Rog]

Another question I would have to ask is, would the Giants be better off with Pablo and about $12 million to sign a starter, a left fielder and a reliever? Or would they be better off with Lester and about $5 million (Can you say bargain basement all the way?)? Or would they be better off with Peavy, Romo, McGehee and say Zobrist?

That last alternative seems clearly deeper and with its risk spread far better than the others.

We can complain that the Giants aren't spending enough, but if the payroll comes in at say $170 million as I think it will, they will have increased their payroll from $96 million in 2010 to $170 million in 2015. That's a 78% increase.

Has YOUR paycheck gone up 78% since 2010? If so, count your blessings and congratulate yourself on your productivity.

[Islandboagie]

I feel Randy's frustration this off season. But I'd be delighted with the bottom of the order being Zobrist, McGehee and Crawford. I think that would generate a ton of production.

[rxmeister]

I just don't see why Randy or anyone else would be frustrated by this offseason especially if the Giants could add someone like Zobrist. As Rog said, it's better than the team that started last season and that team won the World Series. When Peavy pitched so well in September I thought he had priced himself out of SF and he's back. Last year he took the place of an injured Matt Cain and now he joins him in a much stronger rotation. Last year Hudson was the number two starter, now he's the number four. The championship bullpen is back intact. The lineup loss of Sandoval replaced by McGehee is more than offset by the full time return of Belt and Pagan, and when Posey is rested, instead of the anemic Sanchez you have the potent bat of Andrew Susac in there. You have 2B settled from day one. And Zobrist possibly too? I wish the season started tomorrow!

[Rog]

Boagie -- I feel Randy's frustration this off season. But I'd be delighted with the bottom of the order being Zobrist, McGehee and Crawford. I think that would generate a ton of production.

Rog -- Very good point, Boagie. Some of the Giants players RBI totals were reduced by abbreviated seasons last year, but here are the career highs for the potential 3 through 8 hitters:

Posey -- 103

Pence -- 104

Belt -- 67

McGehee -- 104

Zobrist -- 91

Crawford -- 69

Clearly all those guys aren't going to equal their career highs, but one can easily see the potential for driving in runners. As for the hitters before these guys, here are their career OBP's:

Pagan -- .334

Panik -- .343

In addition, all the hitters ahead of Crawford get on base well. The Giants seem like a good candidate to keep the line moving, and they've got the guys who have shown they can drive them in.

This assumes the Giants acquire Zobrist, of course. But there are indeed reports both of the Rays looking to deal Ben and the Giants having interest. The Giants aren't loaded with prospects, but one would think they could come up with a package good enough to acquire Zobrist, a lame duck.

If the Giants don't acquire Zobrist, it seems likely they might get a more powerful hitter for left field. Either way, they have a fine chance to put together a lineup populated by both guys to move the line along and guys to drive them in.

We complain about losing the middle-of-the-lineup potential of Sandoval and Morse, but in fact if the Giants pick up McGehee and Zobrist, they will have acquired two hitters with similar RBI potential. Zobrist's 91 career high RBI's come within four of Morse's 95, and McGehee's 104 actually easily surpass Sandoval's 90.

In addition, they have scored almost as well. (Zobrist's 99 dwarf Morse's 73, and McGehee's 70 aren't too far behind Pablo's 79.)

Based on their career marks, Zobrist .354 and McGehee .324 get on base about as well as Pablo .346 and Morse .335.

Sandoval and Morse clearly have the better power, but it might be important to note that only once in his career has Morse exceeded 18 homers, which is the number of home runs Pablo has averaged the past four seasons. Zobrist has a career high of 27, and McGehee has a top number of 23.

Still, Pablo and Morse have been more consistent with their power and enjoy the clear edge. But it isn't that Pablo and Mike knocked a lot of balls out of the park last season. In fact, they combined for only 32.

Pablo and Morse are better hitters than Zobrist and McGehee, but the difference isn't night and day. And in the field and on the bases, Zobrist and Morse likely have the edge.

So the Giants might have come close to replacing their third baseman and left fielder. And I think most of us would rather have Cain and Peavy than Peavy and Vogelsong. The Giants didn't lose Romo, so they might stay within their budget and yet not suffer too badly from potentially losing five free agents who were instrumental to their success in 2014.

I think the biggest problem for us in evaluating the changes is that we tend to see Pablo as he was in the post season, not as he has been overall. Pablo really hasn't hit particularly well since 2011, and he has only the 2011 season as a very good hitting season among his last five.

Morse is a hitter with a powerful reputation who is streaky, doesn't have as much power as his statuesque build would suggest, and is one of the worst fielders in the game.

Meanwhile, McGehee is considered a professional hitter, and Zobrist is the player that four years ago Bill James suggested was the best everyday player in the game. I don't agree with the latter assessment, but the truth is that Zobrist's hitting career has somewhat paralleled Pablo's.

From 2008 through 2014, Zobrist has 355 more at bats than Pablo. He also has 80 more total bases and has reached base 277 more times.

Over the course of Pablo's career, Zobrist has more or less been his equivalent as a hitter. Over the past three seasons, Zobrist has been somewhat better than Pablo.

So the Giants would have pretty much replaced Pablo's bat with Zobrist's. I think Morse is clearly a better hitter than McGehee, although Casey is just as clearly the better fielder and likely the better base runner.

Last season Zobrist and McGehee combined for 135 runs scored and 128 RBI's. That was as good as Sandoval's and Morse's combined 116 and 134.

Zobrist's bat would effectively replace Pablo's. McGehee's isn't as good as Morse's, but wouldn't you say the combination of Pagan, Zobrist and McGehee is about as good as Blanco, Sandoval and Morse? Add in Panik and Belt for the whole season, and the Giants' lineup has every chance of being better.

Better hitting, quite possibly equal or better pitching, and more or less equivalent defense could well make the Giants an even better team that the one that won the World Championship this year.

In other words, the Giants may have come close to replacing the bats of Pablo and Mike.


Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2639/zobrist#ixzz3N6V2hiHV

[sfgdood]

I just don't see why Randy or anyone else would be frustrated by this offseason especially if the Giants could add someone like Zobrist. As Rog said, it's better than the team that started last season and that team won the World Series. When Peavy pitched so well in September I thought he had priced himself out of SF and he's back. Last year he took the place of an injured Matt Cain and now he joins him in a much stronger rotation. Last year Hudson was the number two starter, now he's the number four. The championship bullpen is back intact. The lineup loss of Sandoval replaced by McGehee is more than offset by the full time return of Belt and Pagan, and when Posey is rested, instead of the anemic Sanchez you have the potent bat of Andrew Susac in there. You have 2B settled from day one. And Zobrist possibly too? I wish the season started tomorrow!

Dood - I would be shocked if even the Giants themselves weren't frustrated by their own failure this offseason. They just have been completely inept at closing deals. Any attempt at saying what they have accomplished this offseason as being anywhere near what they were hoping for is way off base. They need to do a LOT better and even they know that (or they SHOULD). If going after McGehee, Zobrist and Peavy were such a great way to go, they wouldn't have wasted time going after Sandoval, Lester or Tomas.

[rxmeister]

Don't agree. It can still be a successful off season if you don't get your first choice. I think a Lester signing would have been the best option, but plugging several holes instead of one could work out just as well if not better. If the offseason would have just been a Panda re-signing and nothing else, then they're far better off with the route that losing Pablo forced them to go. Peavy, Romo, McGehee, Zobrist is far better in my opinion than Pablo/Vogelsong, the probable other option.

[sfgdood]

Ok, I got lambasted for criticizing what hadn't yet happened...and here you are assuming to know what would have happened AFTER a Pablo signing. I refuse to believe that your conclusions are accurate.

[rxmeister]

I think I'm being realistic about the offseason and I don't think you are, and that's why we differ. I think it makes a big difference in how much you spend on the rest of the team if you sign Pablo as your third baseman at 20 million per season, or you trade for Casey McGehee to play third and pay him 3.5 million. You think they'd expand their payroll after a big signing like that and I think that the big signing would force them to compromise at the other positions.

[sfgdood]

Well one area they could definitely afford to compromise is in the bullpen. They could have let Romo fly and easily replace him with their young bullpen arms. It likely wouldn't have been a large dropoff...not nearly as large as Lester to Peavy or Sandoval to McGehee or even Morse to Zobrist. The fact that they paid Peavy, Romo and McGehee and still are in the hunt for Shields (and possibly Zobrist too) shows they are more than capable of spending more than what you anticipate.

[klaiggeb]

Mark says---I just don't see why Randy or anyone else would be frustrated by this offseason especially if the Giants could add someone like Zobrist. As Rog said, it's better than the team that started last season and that team won the World Series. When Peavy pitched so well in September I thought he had priced himself out of SF and he's back. Last year he took the place of an injured Matt Cain and now he joins him in a much stronger rotation. Last year Hudson was the number two starter, now he's the number four. The championship bullpen is back intact. The lineup loss of Sandoval replaced by McGehee is more than offset by the full time return of Belt and Pagan, and when Posey is rested, instead of the anemic Sanchez you have the potent bat of Andrew Susac in there. You have 2B settled from day one. And Zobrist possibly too? I wish the season started tomorrow!

---boly says---
Mark, more often than not, I agree with 100% of your comments, insights and thoughts on not just the Giants, but baseball in general.

But here, I have to ask you: "Why AREN'T YOU frustrated by what the Giants haven't done?


Seriously.

I'd love Zobrist. He'd be a solid addition. He would

But IF we had made other NECESSARY moves, he'd be a great addition.

But we didn't.

We likely won't.

And THAT is why we are so frustrated.

Me? I'm flat out ticked. I'll elaborate more in a separate post.

boly

[Rog]

Dood - I would be shocked if even the Giants themselves weren't frustrated by their own failure this offseason. They just have been completely inept at closing deals.

Rog -- What do we know that tells us they were inept? I don't know enough about the Tomas negotiations to know whether was true or not, but there is no indication of bungling on the Giants' part. As for Pablo and Lester, they made their decisions based on factors other than money -- possibly David Ortiz and Rick Dempsey respectively.

I have seen some comment here about David Ortiz's possible influence on Pablo, but I haven't seen any type of rejoinder to the Rick Dempsey note.

El Dooderino -- Any attempt at saying what they have accomplished this offseason as being anywhere near what they were hoping for is way off base.

Rog -- They didn't connect with any of what we believe were their top three targets, but that doesn't mean they aren't ANYWHERE NEAR what they were hoping for.

I think they could have signed Tomas and still had decent maneuvering room, but had they signed Pablo or particularly Lester, they would have needed to stretch the budget to address their needs for a third baseman, at least one starting pitcher, and a reliever.

El Dooderino -- They need to do a LOT better and even they know that (or they SHOULD). If going after McGehee, Zobrist and Peavy were such a great way to go, they wouldn't have wasted time going after Sandoval, Lester or Tomas.

Rog -- It is the whole not the parts that matters most. Tell me if I'm off base here:

Had the Giants signed Pablo, you would have complained that they didn't properly address their other needs. If they had signed Lester, you would have complained that it forced them to fill all their other spots from the bargain basement. If they had signed Tomas, you would have complained that they didn't sign a better pitcher and didn't properly replace Pablo.

Tell us what your reaction would have been had the Giants signed Pablo and had just $12 million or so left for the other needs? Your reaction if the Giants had signed Lester and had well under $10 million left? If they had signed Tomas and had $20 million left?

Only the last option seemed to give the Giants much flexibility, and I suspect they were worried about paying over $11 million per season to a player who might hit just .240 with 20 home runs and poor defense.

Of the three, I'm probably most disappointed they didn't sign Tomas, but he was also by far the most unknown of the three players. Unknown usually means risk. Which is what comes with Lester at 6/$155+ or Pablo at 5/$95+.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2639/zobrist#ixzz3NDDxy3r5

[Rog]

El Dooderino -- well given that Zobrist is 5 years older than our departed 3rd baseman and his power has gone down to nearly as non-existent as Casey McGehee's in recent years it's very understandable why one would dispute your wish to paint him as a legitimate power threat.

Rog -- No one is trying to say Ben Zobrist is a power hitter. What most would say though is that he is a very good player.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2639/zobrist?page=1#ixzz3NDHcqXs9

[Rog]

Pablo Sandoval has hit a home run ever 30 at bats over the course of his career. That's not the mark of a true power hitter. Over the past three seasons, he has hit a home run every 45 at bats. That's definitely not the sign of a power hitter.

Mike Morse has shown decent power with a homer every 23 at bats in his career and one every 25 at bats the past three seasons.

Between them, they have hit a home run every 35 at bats the past three seasons. That's not true power.

Here's some grist for the mill. The past three seasons, Pablo has hit 42 home runs. During the same period, Ben Zobrist has hit ... 42 home runs. Pablo is the more powerful of the two, but Pablo isn't powerful enough for the difference to be pronounced.

In Pablo's six full seasons, he's averaged 18 homers per season. That's clearly better than either Zobrist of Casey McGehee, but it's not anywhere near great. Zobrist has averaged 16 homers per season over his seven full seasons. McGehee has averaged 13 homers in his five full seasons.

When we are looking at how few homers Zobrist and McGehee hit (and each player is declining in that stat), we should also look at how Pablo's power has declined. Pablo and Zobrist have each hit the same number of homers the past three seasons.

It's not as if Pablo is Babe Ruth and Zobrist is Wee Willie Keeler.

[rxmeister]

Rog, RYAN DEMPSTER, not Rick Dempsey, once again. Boly, I've already elaborated on why I like the offseason, although it's not complete yet and will depend on what they do in LF with the money they saved on Pablo or Lester. If it's Zobrist or someone like Allan Craig, I will be very happy. They lost out on Pablo and Lester for non baseball reasons, and they were wise to not use that money to overpay the next free agent in line. I await their next move with excitement,,

[Rog]

Mark -- Peavy, Romo, McGehee, Zobrist is far better in my opinion than Pablo/Vogelsong, the probable other option.

Rog -- As you mention, had the Giants signed Pablo, it likely would have been Pablo, Ryan, scrap heap, scrap heap. If the Giants are able to trade for Zobrist, they will have acquired four players between decent and very good.

There are many ways to look at things, but here is one:

. Sergio Romo plays a far lesser position, but he has been better as a reliever than Pablo has been as a third baseman.

. Ben Zobrist has been about the equal of Pablo, possibly better.

. Jake Peavy is probably a major league average starter.

. Casey McGehee is a decent third baseman who isn't as good as Pablo.

If they trade for Zobrist, the Giants will have signed/acquired two players at least as good as Pablo, quite possibly better. They will have signed a #3/#4 caliber starting pitcher. They will have signed a third baseman who is likely a third-quartile starter.

They would have acquired or re-signed six years of All-Star experience, a Cy Young Award, a Gold Glove and two top-10 MVP finishes. They will have re-signed the pitcher who has been a top 5 reliever over the past seven seasons.

As is the case with most free agents, none of these guys is in his prime, but all are proven major leaguers and all but McGehee have been among the game's top players at his position. Even McGehee has accomplished something a fairly small percentage of major leaguers accomplish -- driven in 100 runs in a season.

That's not flashy, but it could well be effective. Zobrist hasn't been acquired yet, and maybe he never will be. Even if he isn't though, the Giants will likely still find a way to come up with a starting-caliber left fielder.

Does a team with Buster Posey and Madison Bumgarner truly need another big star -- or is satisfactorily filling four holes a pretty good accomplishment in itself?

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[Rog]

El Dooderino -- It likely wouldn't have been a large dropoff...not nearly as large as Lester to Peavy or Sandoval to McGehee or even Morse to Zobrist.

Rog -- The drop off from Romo to a young reliever would quite possibly be significant, but at a less important position. It would certainly be a much bigger drop off than from Morse to Zobrist, since most would agree that would be an upgrade, not a drop off.

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