sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 16, 2014 21:47:16 GMT -5
he's on the roster. Pagan is hurt. Perez has proven he can't hit to save his life AND he sucks in the field (that "double" that Trumbo hit should have been an easy out). Someone needs to explain to Bochy that even if Brown has trouble hitting, at least he plays defense.
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Post by islandboagie on Sept 17, 2014 1:01:22 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing, Randy. However, I don't know if I would say Perez sucks in the field. He does however suck with the bat.
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Post by donk33 on Sept 17, 2014 1:25:09 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing, Randy. However, I don't know if I would say Perez sucks in the field. He does however suck with the bat. dk...and yet, Perez out hit all these guys at Fresno....
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 1:59:47 GMT -5
this aint the pcl anymore, Dorothy
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 17, 2014 8:35:44 GMT -5
Bochy was asked and replied, "it's too late in the season to catch lightning in the bottle!" Hopefully Pagan will be back by the weekend, but with Belt supposedly back, I'd think I'd go with Blanco in center with Ishi in LF against righties, and then either Perez or Brown against lefties.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 17, 2014 10:04:15 GMT -5
There is no way on God's green earth I would have started Brown in Cf.
None.
Not one.
He couldn't hit minor league pitching, and we'd be expecting him to even have a chance against Collmenter?
Bochy often infuriates me beyond words... but in this case, I think he made the right call.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 10:29:49 GMT -5
I doubt Brown could have had any less of a chance than Perez, who has proven to be a AAAA player at best. Defensively I don't want to see Perez ever again after he gifted that double to Trumbo.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 17, 2014 12:54:51 GMT -5
Perez playing again today. Think I would have called up Carbonell.
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Post by donk33 on Sept 17, 2014 13:18:11 GMT -5
I doubt Brown could have had any less of a chance than Perez, who has proven to be a AAAA player at best. Defensively I don't want to see Perez ever again after he gifted that double to Trumbo. dk..and how many mis-reads did Pagan have during the week....several....playing indoors in a strange ball park can result in some problems for an outfielder....I think Perez can be excused for one as he has proven to be an above average fielder in other games...
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 13:46:17 GMT -5
if memory serves, I do believe Perez has played several games at Chase Field. No sale on that excuse...especially for an outfielder with speed as they should be playing shallow and running down balls that are deep...a high shallow ball should never fall in front of them
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 13:57:53 GMT -5
Rx - Perez playing again today. Think I would have called up Carbonell.
Dood - Id have called up Brown last year, but neither your preference nor mine makes any difference. Carbonell is probably on his couch back home now eating burritos and watching his toenails grow. Brown is on today's roster and yet Bochy stubbornly keeps sending Perez out there, which neither of us likes
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Post by Rog on Sept 17, 2014 14:09:58 GMT -5
I agree we should play a guy who has proven he is an average AAA player over a guy who has proven he is a good AAA player but not more than a Four A player.
Wouldn't any other conclusion be illogical?
Getting real for a moment or so though, at least Perez has the experience. Brown has shown next to nothing that would indicate he will become a good major league player. One of the Giants' beat writers has indicated Brown likely will no longer be with the Giants next season.
Gary has some REALLY nice tools. But whereas Joe Panik seems to have outstanding baseball instincts, I'm wondering if that can be said of Brown. Something is wrong with Gary.
I remember back to the scouting reports when Gary was drafted that he didn't have strike zone control. He has shown little in the minors to indicate he does have it.
I know you're still high (that was an awkward way of saying it!) on Brown, Randy, but it might be time to become realistic. Remember how enthralled with Tim Lincecum early on? I e-mailed a prospect evaluator and built a case for his rating Tim even higher than he did. I got to know his dad, for crying out loud.
But I have become quite realistic about Tim. As sad as I am to say it, he's likely been the worst starter to keep his job over the past three seasons (until recently) after being arguably the best starter in baseball over the 2008-2011 period.
I keep thinking he'll bounce back. Hard to imagine falling so far so fast without a physical or mental injury. And he has shown some fairly long stretches where he was at least closer to his old form than to what we now view as his present.
But he just hasn't been able to keep things rolling. How could he have a 3.09 ERA over 15 starts or so and then fall apart seemingly overnight as he has since his closing out that 14-inning game? Was it the nearly-simultaneous loss of Hector Sanchez? And if it was, how the heck can he be so reliant on a single catcher?
Tim has become the typical mystery inside a riddle inside a puzzle inside a conundrum.
I admit that regarding Tim. Why don't you admit that the past three seasons Gary Brown hasn't come close to being the player you saw at San Jose and shows no real signs that he will become so?
What I was recently thinking was why if the Giants had to gamble the future to get Carlos Beltran, the Mets didn't take Gary instead of Zack Wheeler. I suspect it was because even though Gary had been listed by most as the Giants' top prospect after the 2010 season, the Mets could see he wasn't nearly as good as Wheeler was likely to become.
I would LOVE to see Gary make it, Randy. Heck, the Giants had it set up for him to become their everyday center fielder THIS season, but he hit horribly at Fresno last season. Sometimes it takes a guy a year to adjust (although that is usually a poor sign), but Gary wasn't especially good at Fresno even in this his second season there.
Most don't think he's a top 10 prospect for the Giants now. What have you seen over the past three seasons that gives you realistic hope for him?
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Post by Rog on Sept 17, 2014 14:13:15 GMT -5
By the way, it's too bad Michael Morse or Brandon Belt aren't ready. The Giants could play one of them in left field and have Gregor Blanco take over in center. The Giants aren't likely to start Belt in left field upon his return, but certainly Morse could fill that bill, enabling Buster to move to first. There may be other reasons why the Giants aren't catching Susac every day.
But, yeah, having Perez play on a daily basis is tough.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 14:20:08 GMT -5
All I'm saying is this...with the Giants injuries and Perez looking like Timmy Lupus out there, why NOT play Brown since you already determined he deserves to be on the roster? If that guy you read is right about Brown being gone next year then why would they call him up and NOT play him in these circumstances? None of that makes any sense to me.
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Post by Rog on Sept 17, 2014 14:34:21 GMT -5
I would have called up Brown last September too, since at the very least he could serve as a pinch runner and defensive replacement. But perhaps the Giants consider being called up in September a reward for having a good season, and Gary certainly didn't accomplish that a year ago. He was marginal in that regard this year.
The following players played a fair amount for Fresno and outhit Gary:
Joe Panik Juan Perez Juan Ciriaco Adam Duvall Mark Minicozzi Tony Abreu Darren Ford Chris Dominguez Travis Ishikawa
It should be noted that few if any outplayed him on the bases or in the field. That said, Gary's 36 steals in 56 attempts weren't as good as Ford's 35 steals in nine fewer attempts. Some would even consider Ciriaco's 13 out of 14 to be an improvement.
At this time, Gary is a leadoff hitter who doesn't hit for high enough average or get on base enough. He has great speed, but isn't an efficient base stealer. That speed does help make him an excellent fielder.
Everything considered, most think that Gary is on the verge of becoming suspect rather than prospect -- if he hasn't reached that point already.
I'm curious, Randy, as to where I have misspoken here.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 14:43:15 GMT -5
all your arguments are to the issue of Brown being on the roster at all. The issue I am addressing is Brown vs Perez at this current time. You can't steal first base and Perez has proven inept at this level in getting on base safely. You can quote all the PCL stats you want. What I look at is how Perez has looked in the big leagues and that has been God awful. Can Brown do worse? Possibly but is it not worth a look? The defense at least would be an upgrade. Andrew Baggerly says he cant envision Pagan or Morse returning soon so it's possible either Brown or Perez will be on the postseason roster. I want to see more of Brown...Ive seen enough of Juan
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 17, 2014 15:38:12 GMT -5
No question he misplayed that ball, Randy.
But that is the ONLY ball I've EVER seen him misplay.
Have you forgotten last year that INCREDIBLE catch he made at Chase Field CRASHING into the RCF fence?
I haven't.
He makes very, very few mistakes in CF, and defensively, when compared to Pagan, Perez is Willie Mays, Pagan is Andre Either. Solid, but not that good.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 15:59:19 GMT -5
Ive seen Brown play in twilight, in straight sun fields and in dim bus leagues lights. Ive never seen him flub one like Perez last night. Shouldn't Juan be 100 percent focused now?
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Post by Rog on Sept 17, 2014 17:03:57 GMT -5
I think you make a good point when you ask how much worse Brown can do than Perez. The thing about Gary is that over the past three seasons, he hasn't done much of anything to show he deserves a chance. I'm not sure it would make that much difference anyway, since neither player seems likely to succeed, so I don't see it as a big deal one way or the other.
Here are two points I think favor Perez:
. He has major league experience, which can matter when we are comparing one marginal player to another.
. Juan has outplayed Brown in the minors by a LOT.
As for Gary's defense being better than Juan's, I'm not so sure. Gary has more speed, which might give him a fielding advantage. But while Gary's arm is pretty good, Juan's is even better.
One thing I really like about Gary is the way he charges the ball and comes up using his momentum to add to his throw. Extremely impressive to me.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 17:39:39 GMT -5
1. How can Gary get experience if Juan Lupus is playing ahead of him?
2. When has Juan ever been an MVP of ANY league?
3. Ive seen them both and Gary's arm seems at least as good...speed favors Brown by a small margin and he gets better jumps (see Perez' play on Trumbo last night).
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Post by Rog on Sept 17, 2014 17:51:36 GMT -5
You make a good point about Gary's not being able to get experience playing behind Juan. But the point at this time may be that Juan HAS the experience already.
I wouldn't have any problem with the Giants' using Gary, but I also understand why they're going with Juan.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 18:07:38 GMT -5
If Juan was not on the Interstate, I could see that argument.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 17, 2014 21:23:10 GMT -5
Carbonell isn't sitting on his couch, he's getting ready for the AFL, I'm sure. I had no problem with Perez starting today against the lefty, but against the righty I'd like to see Ishi in LF, especially since we saw Mr. Belt return today. As for Brown vs. Perez, Juan may be a AAAA player, too good for Fresno but not good enough for SF, but Brown has proven now in TWO seasons that he's a failure at Triple A. I can't blame Bochy for ignoring Brown at all.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 21:35:42 GMT -5
you may be right...but then that would make both Bochy and Sabean idiots for bringing him up in the first place
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 17, 2014 22:33:30 GMT -5
He's on the 40, why not, even if it's just to provide bench rest for a starter in a blow out or a pinch running or pinch hitting appearance? He actually helped the team today, as obviously Hunter Pence playing drums on his head in the ninth inning provided the good luck which led to the game winning rally!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 17, 2014 23:12:12 GMT -5
not everyone on the 40 gets called up in September. And they ONLY call up players they feel have earned their way to the bigs--or at least that's what they have said in past years--so Brown must have shown them something this year. Pence also used Perez' melon as bongos right before Duffy's hit.
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Post by rxmeister on Sept 18, 2014 7:03:41 GMT -5
It's true that not everyone gets called up, but if they can find a use for you however small, there's no harm in putting you on the bench. We all remember Darren Ford's call ups in September simply to be a pinch runner. Gary has speed and defensive ability, so he is useful in that fashion at least. I think if Bochy thought anything of Brown, Juan Perez' Arizona performance would have gotten him a start.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 18, 2014 11:19:04 GMT -5
We might not get a chance to see. Now I hear Pagan expects to start tomorrow in SD. But in any event, Bochy wasn't the one who called up Ford. It works differently nowadays
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Post by Rog on Sept 18, 2014 11:20:06 GMT -5
Mark -- Carbonell isn't sitting on his couch, he's getting ready for the AFL, I'm sure. I had no problem with Perez starting today against the lefty, but against the righty I'd like to see Ishi in LF, especially since we saw Mr. Belt return today. As for Brown vs. Perez, Juan may be a AAAA player, too good for Fresno but not good enough for SF, but Brown has proven now in TWO seasons that he's a failure at Triple A. I can't blame Bochy for ignoring Brown at all. Randy -- you may be right...but then that would make both Bochy and Sabean idiots for bringing him up in the first place Rog -- Actually, Randy, it wouldn't. At worst it would mean they made a mistake. That's a far cry from being an idiot. So let's look at the reasons WHY they may have brought up Brown: . He's already on the 40-man roster, so there was no harm in bringing him up. . He's a fast runner, so he could be a pinch runner, somewhat as Darren Ford was in 2010, when he stole third base and came in on a wild throw to win the September 1st game. . He's a very good fielder, so he could be used as a defensive replacement. . He's a decent enough hitter that he might be used in a double switch. . He provides added depth for extra-inning games. . Perhaps he could show something that would marginally improve his value for when he's likely traded this winter. If he's any kind of player at all, it would have been foolish NOT to bring him up. Wouldn't it? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2457/why-brown#ixzz3DgVERaWuRead more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2457/why-brown#ixzz3DgV42KYB
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Post by Rog on Sept 18, 2014 11:29:55 GMT -5
One of the reasons the Giants appear to be down on Gary might be that in his second year in the hitters' Pacific Coast League, he hit just .271 and more importantly for a leadoff man, struck out 119 times with only 36 walks. That did represent an improvement from his .231 with 135 strikeouts and just 33 walks in his first PCL season.
The thing is that when a player stumbles when he is moved to the next level, a team is looking for a truly big bounce back in his second season in the league. Gary didn't provide that.
The Giants appear to believe Gary has crossed the divide from prospect to suspect. I agree with Randy that it IS hard to understand how he could go from such a marvelous season at San Jose three years ago to being so-so even in his second season at Fresno. I think what it comes back to is the primary criticism I leveled at Gary even after his outstanding season at San Jose. A lack of plate control.
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