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Post by Rog on Jul 11, 2014 14:24:03 GMT -5
According to Chris Haft of sfgiants.com, Pat Burrell was sent to scout Ben Zobrist, who was discussed here by Boly IIRC. Zobrist's value would come in part from his ability to play both second base and in the outfield.
The Rays are said to have sent scouts to Richmond to scout the Giants' AA team. The Giants are said to have interest in David Price, also a Ray. Price becomes a free agent at the end of the 2015 season. Zobrist, 33, is eligible at the same time.
Price is arbitration eligible at the end of this season, while Zobrist has a very reasonable $7.5 million option on his services.
Zobrist seems like a wonderful fit, while Price will likely become too expensive when he reaches the free agent market. The Giants could acquire Price for the rest of the season and trade him over the winter or at the 2015 deadline.
Either player will come at a high price, but Brian Sabean has said that every Giant is in play.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 11, 2014 14:53:57 GMT -5
To me, going after Prince is a no brainer. And I mean that sincerely. I'd even move one of our current starters to get him IF that is what would be required. I'd part with Crick, too. Then again, I'm sure some Fantasy Baseball moron thinks we could get him for Abrue, Perez, and Kickham  boly |
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 12, 2014 7:24:47 GMT -5
The longer the bottom of the Dodgers rotation struggles, the more likely they get Price, and they have better prospects than we do. I doubt Sabes will look for starting pitching, because it hasn't been a problem. As for Zobrist, I like the guy but Panik is doing pretty well and Marco Scutaro returns today.
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 12, 2014 9:42:03 GMT -5
I agree, Mark. I think Price is a pipe dream. Zobrist might be a possibility, but like you said, with Scutaro being activated and Panik doing well, I dont think there's a huge need there.
My guess is if the Giants do make a move, it will be for some bullpen help. And perhaps it will be for an established closer. Papelbon might look pretty good in a Giants uniform?
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 12, 2014 10:04:39 GMT -5
In fact, now that I think about it, Burrell played with Zobrist. Why would they send him to go scout someone he could already give a detailed scouting report on?
I think he was there to scout someone else. Maybe someone in their bullpen.
Brad Boxberger would be a nice addition.
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Post by Rog on Jul 12, 2014 10:55:38 GMT -5
Boly -- Then again, I'm sure some Fantasy Baseball moron thinks we could get him for Abrue, Perez, and Kickham Rog -- I've never played fantasy baseball, and I have no particular desire to do so. The closest I come is that I help my son finalize his fantasy hockey team. But I'll bet the average fantasy baseball player knows at least as much about the game as the average fan. Probably more. I'm pretty sure you're referring to the Bleacher Report writer we talked about a week or so ago. I think he's simply overly exuberant. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2371/ben-zobrist#ixzz37GnpeWjm |
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Post by Rog on Jul 12, 2014 10:59:21 GMT -5
Boagie -- In fact, now that I think about it, Burrell played with Zobrist. Why would they send him to go scout someone he could already give a detailed scouting report on? I think he was there to scout someone else. Maybe someone in their bullpen. Brad Boxberger would be a nice addition. Rog -- You make a good point here, Boagie, but Burrell might be scouting Zobrist because players change over time. Ben's 33 now, whereas he was in his prime when he played with Pat. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2371/ben-zobrist?page=1&scrollTo=21342#ixzz37GovrYI3 |
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 12, 2014 11:51:49 GMT -5
True, Rog. I just think the Giants would be looking for a bullpen piece rather than a second baseman. Of course, I'm just speculating, but then again so was Chris Haft when he wrote the article. Obviously getting Zobrist would be a nice addition, but there are multiple teams interested in Zobrist now. As we've seen in the past, making a deal under the radar with no competition is more Sabean's style. Also, they're pretty darned good at scouting bullpen help. Zobrist might be on the list, but I can almost guarantee you there are a number of relief pitchers they're actively scouting at the moment.
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Post by Rog on Jul 12, 2014 12:10:44 GMT -5
I agree with you about prioritizing the bullpen. I'd also like to see the Giants pick up a right-handed hitter who can play center field in case the angels aren't on Pagan's side.
A second baseman would be great, but I like Panik, and with Marco back, as you mentioned, the Giants would seem to have other needs. The rotation looks OK now, although very likely they will have at least one more period of struggling before this whole thing is over. Things are cyclical, and hopefully the Giants' cycle will be upward most of the rest of the season.
Hey, they've got that noted stopper Tim Lincecum back!
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Post by Rog on Jul 18, 2014 0:35:09 GMT -5
The Mariners are now being mentioned in conjunction with Ben Zobrist, but if the Giants should acquire Zobrist, here is what could happen in the event of an injury to a Giants starting position player:
Brandon Belt -- Zobrist has played first base, but the Giants would likely play him in left field and move Mike Morse to first base.
Marco Scutaro/Joe Panik -- If all other starters were healthy, this is where Zobrist would be most likely to play.
Brandon Crawford -- Zobrist would likely take Crawford's place.
Pablo Sandoval -- Zobrist might well play here if necessary.
Mike Morse -- Zobrist would likely be the replacement.
Angel Pagan -- Likely Zobrist, although he might to right, with Hunter Pence taking over in center.
Hunter Pence -- Zobrist would be the man.
Buster Posey -- Well, Zobrist can't play everywhere!
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 20, 2014 9:09:58 GMT -5
Well, now that it's apparent Scutaro won't be able to play as often as we we were led to believe, or at all, and the possible concussion to Belt, getting a player like Zobrist became more important.
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 20, 2014 10:23:26 GMT -5
Scutaro is in the lineup today, and I like Joe Panik, so I don't see the importance of a deal here. Two names mentioned that the Giants are in on as well are Astrubal Cabrera and Mike Aviles of Cleveland. I say no to both, especially Aviles. Jon Morosi said Cleveland will only move them if they're out of it, but it looks like that won't happen.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 21, 2014 10:10:21 GMT -5
--boagie---My guess is if the Giants do make a move, it will be for some bullpen help. And perhaps it will be for an established closer. Papelbon might look pretty good in a Giants uniform?
---boly says---
He seems to be having an awfully good year.
My only concern about him is that virtually every time I've SEEN him in the last 2 seasons... I mean SEEN the game... I've been far from impressed.
All of which means nothing.
Right now, we NEED someone(s) because I'm still not impressed with what we've got.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 21, 2014 10:27:42 GMT -5
Zobrist is a nice player, one we certainly could use.
But he's not that one "spark" that the team needs.
He's not a leadoff guy, and for me, THAT is where I'd look first.
Enough of this nonsense in waiting to see IF Pagan will be back.
There are, what; 60ish games to go?
It's a back problem, and they don't go away over night.
Time to pull your head out of your fanny, Brain.
Or, as my father used to say: "Time to piss or get off the pot," and do something.
While he sits on his hands... the season slips away because you just KNOW the Dodgers are going to make a MAJOR splash!
Something like Kemp and a gazillion-billion dollars for Price.
I'm being jestful, of course, but I put nothing past what they can do BECAUSE they have money to burn.
In the meantime, Brian seems to be just crossing his fingers and putting all of his cards in the "Pagan" box.
Foolish.
Just foolish.
boly
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Post by Rog on Jul 21, 2014 23:32:13 GMT -5
Boly -- Time to pull your head out of your fanny, Brain. Rog -- I see nothing at this point to indicate that Brian's head is up his fanny. Wouldn't you rather he make a good deal a week and a half from now than a bad deal today? Take a little more time in evaluating the areas of most need rather than be too quick to pull the trigger on a situation that seems to change almost daily? As an example, how does the bullpen look to you now? Their ERA is 2.77, and their WHIP is 1.07. Could they improve? Of course. Are they a true weakness? It wouldn't really seem so. Here is my idea regarding the bullpen. Trade Romo for a prospect, then couple that prospect with another one or two to acquire an outfielder. Trade minor prospects for a reliever or two (preferably including a southpaw). Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2371/ben-zobrist#ixzz38ATmyY6x |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 21, 2014 23:46:24 GMT -5
Boly -- Time to pull your head out of your fanny, Brain.
Rog -- I see nothing at this point to indicate that Brian's head is up his fanny. Wouldn't you rather he make a good deal a week and a half from now than a bad deal today? Take a little more time in evaluating the areas of most need rather than be too quick to pull the trigger on a situation that seems to change almost daily?
===boly says---
Of course I would, Rog. But at this point I think he's just shoveling BS at the fans... like he always does, and I DO think he's sitting on his hands.
I mean, as I said, our "needs" are obvious. Even Sabean said so.
But I contend there are deals out there to be made and I'm not happy he hasn't made one.
boly
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Post by Rog on Jul 21, 2014 23:52:50 GMT -5
Boly -- But I contend there are deals out there to be made and I'm not happy he hasn't made one. Rog -- I don't think there is any question there are deals out there to be made, but are they the ones that will most help the club without giving up too much? With the exception of his Carlos Beltran fiasco (which actually might have worked out OK if he had bothered to re-sign Carlos), Brian has done a nice job with his deadline trades. I think it's WAY too early to disparage his efforts or lack thereof. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2371/ben-zobrist#ixzz38AaSfsqj |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 21, 2014 23:58:21 GMT -5
Brian has done a GREAT job at the deadline.
But think back. Every YEAR I've whinned about his waiting around, and even more, I've complained about the nonsense he shovels to the media.
Just don't say anything Brian, let your actions be your words.
But instead, he keeps on shoveling.
All that said, I'll take Sabean and his rhetoric over ANY GM out there.
He does more with less than anyone I can think of.
But, as Bochy does, he EXHASPERATES me!
boly
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Post by Rog on Jul 23, 2014 0:24:26 GMT -5
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 23, 2014 0:51:20 GMT -5
I think Boly meant Sabean is the best at making solid mid-season moves, even when they aren't very news worthy.
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Post by Rog on Jul 23, 2014 1:19:24 GMT -5
Boagie -- I think Boly meant Sabean is the best at making solid mid-season moves, even when they aren't very news worthy. Rog -- Brian has been very good in that regard. He has even added such waiver players as Scott Eyre, Cody Ross and Jose Mijares. And of course, Pat Burrell. Brian has also added some very nice bargain basement free agents such as Juan Uribe and Aubrey Huff. To some extent, Mike Morse fits that definition this year. Tim Hudson has been a gamble that has paid off. Even re-signing Ryan Vogelsong has helped a little. Gregor Blanco and Joaquin Arias in previous seasons. Santiago Casilla has been a fabulous off-season signing. Nice beginning of the season trade for George Kontos. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2371/ben-zobrist#ixzz38Glliytx |
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 23, 2014 9:31:41 GMT -5
I think Boly meant Sabean is the best at making solid mid-season moves, even when they aren't very news worthy.
---boly says---
Thank you, Boagie, that is PRECISELY what I meant.
He exasperates the crap outta me... but he has a great track record!
Heck, NO ONE gets it right all the time, but he's done pretty darned well!
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Jul 23, 2014 10:17:19 GMT -5
I read some Phillies fan after the game made a comment that I think fits very well. The fan said that the Giants and Phillies were in the same exact boat after last year, and both GM's made questionable moves, but for some reason Sabean's worked and Amaro's didn't. That seems to happen a lot for Sabean. Let's hope it happens again by July 31.
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Post by Rog on Jul 23, 2014 13:40:22 GMT -5
Boly -- Thank you, Boagie, that is PRECISELY what I meant. He exasperates the crap outta me... but he has a great track record! Rog -- When someone is doing a good job, he excites -- not exasperates -- me. I'm like everyone else here in that I get antsy with all the waiting. But the wait is usually worth it. Let me give you an example: In 2010 some were disappointed when "all" the Giants did to fortify their bullpen was add "ham'n'eggers" Javier Lopez and Ramon Ramirez. But both guys put up sub-2.00 ERA's the rest of the way. And they continued to do well the next season. Lopez is still contributing, and Ramirez became a key trading chip that allowed the Giants to acquire Angel Pagan. And I don't think any of the guys the Giants gave up to acquire Lopez and Ramirez has gone on to do much of anything. Guys like John Bowker and Joey Martinez haven't been missed. Two years ago the Giants picked up Hunter Pence for a player they weren't going to re-sign (Nate Schierholtz), an injury-prone catching prospect (Tommy Joseph), and a middling relief prospect (Seth Rosen). The killer was trading Zack Wheeler for Carlos Beltran, and even that might have worked out OK if the Giants had re-signed Beltran. Sabean isn't the best GM in the game -- but he's way above average. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2371/ben-zobrist#ixzz38JiYhP7s |
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 23, 2014 14:20:14 GMT -5
If Sabean isn't the best, who is?
Not that I would say he's definitively the best, but he certainly shouldn't be regarded as not the best.
There's a handful of GMs who should be in the discussion, Sabean in my opinion is one of them.
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Post by Rog on Jul 24, 2014 12:26:45 GMT -5
Boagie -- If Sabean isn't the best, who is?
Rog -- Perhaps it's only because they have an "advantage" over Brian, but Billy Beane and the guy at Tampa Bay have put together very good teams with only a fraction of the money available to Brian.
IMO Brian has done well with trades and very well with low-cost free agents. He's done an above-average job of drafting.
But's he's done so-so at best with his higher-priced free agents, and as Randy has correctly pointed out, very poorly to date in the international market.
He's done so-so at locking up players early, with Madison Bumgarner being his only rousing success.
One other thing for which he should be praised is keeping his core together.
Among his competition, I think what Billy Beane has done is pretty clear. What isn't so well-known is that the Tampa Bay GM locked up Evan Longoria with a contract even lower than Madison Bumgarner's. Although John Hart did some of that many years ago, the Tampa Bay guy was arguably the leader of that tactic among today's GM's. Mr. Tampa Bay has also done a marvelous job of replenishing good assets within his limited budget by trading players (primarily pitchers) just as they're beginning to become expensive, in exchange for players who are close to the majors and will remain under team control for six years or more.
Oakland and Tampa Bay were also on the cutting edge of analytical evaluation.
Brian is very good with traditional GM tools, using a high payroll to provide mostly good teams. But he has been behind the curve in some of the other techniques mentioned above.
Also, one could argue that the other-worldly play of Barry Bonds kept the Giants a good team for many years. Certainly they fell apart when he left, allowing them to draft Tim Lincecum, Madison Bumgarner, Buster Posey and Zack Wheeler with very high picks. The Giants did a good job with those choices, allowing them to rebuild within four years or so.
Over a four-year period though, the Giants were rather bleak. Bean and the Tampa Bay guy have done at least as quick a job of rebuilding, despite having a much lower budget.
Incidentally, there are likely a few other GM's who are in or approach Brian's class, although none comes directly to mind. I would guess that Brian is in the middle or lower half of the first quartile.
Intriguingly, when the MLB Network voted for their top general managers, no other GM was as divisive in opinions as Brian. He was ranked fairly highly, but it seemed to be a case where some loved him and others thought he was rather poor at his job.
Brian is very good, but I would be shocked if he is truly the best.
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Post by islandboagie on Jul 24, 2014 14:18:44 GMT -5
Boagie -- If Sabean isn't the best, who is?
Rog -- Perhaps it's only because they have an "advantage" over Brian, but Billy Beane and the guy at Tampa Bay have put together very good teams with only a fraction of the money available to Brian.
Boagie- Very true. I don't know that much about the guy from Tampa Bay, but obviously, until just recently, he's kept his team competitive in a tough division.
Beane is a very good GM. But he gets a lot of attention because of the movie. A very good movie, but I question it's accuracy. I seriously doubt Beane treated Art How's like a bumbling fool. And I know for a fact he doesn't treat his scouts the way it's depicted in the movie. Hattenburg and Justice were nice additions, but make no mistake...the reason the A's were successful that season was because of their stud pitching staff and Chavez and Tejada.
Let's also not forget Beane has made bad moves as well. Carlos Gonzalez and Andre Eithier both were A's at one point. Huston Street and Gonzalez were traded for Matt Holiday and in perhaps one of the worst trades in history, Beane traded Ethier to the Dodgers for Milton Bradley.
Also, the A's did go without a winning season for 5 straight seasons.
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Post by Rog on Jul 24, 2014 18:12:35 GMT -5
Boagie -- Beane is a very good GM. But he gets a lot of attention because of the movie. A very good movie, but I question it's accuracy.
Rog -- I still haven't seen the movie. But it was clear many years ago that he was able to do a lot with a little. Perhaps as well as anyone has ever been able to do so.
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Post by Rog on Jul 24, 2014 18:15:21 GMT -5
Boagie -- Let's also not forget Beane has made bad moves as well.
Rog -- I was thinking of that very fact when I made my post. Every GM makes mistakes, but few have made as many cagey moves as Billy. Some would say Billy has really used his -- well, you get the idea.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jul 25, 2014 10:23:42 GMT -5
Hate to be a stick-in-the-mud, guys, but the subject of who's the best GM had to do with MID season moves, not the over all best GM.
For my money, I can't think of anyone who has consistantly made better "in season moves," than Sabean.
boly
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