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Post by allenreed on Jan 13, 2014 16:30:22 GMT -5
Interesting special on MLB today about the bat swinging incident. A couple of things I didn't know. Once Marichal began to receive alot of negative press, Roseboro expressed guilt, saying he had initiated the incident, Two, though I was aware they had become good friends in later life, I was unaware that Juan had delivered the eulogy at Roseboro's funeral.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 14, 2014 11:17:18 GMT -5
In light of all that took place that day, and I think what Marichal and Rosey did was very classy;
Rosey admitting that he initiated the act, and Juan for delivering the eulogy.
And the fact that they became close friends... all I can say is, wow!
Adults and gentlemen.
boly
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Post by allenreed on Jan 14, 2014 11:24:36 GMT -5
Hard to imagine what snapped in Marichal that day. From what I've read, Juan was a dignified, classy, gentle guy. It just seems so out of character.
I remember seeing Roseboro in a Mr. Ed rerun once. Ed was trying to play baseball, if you can believe that, and they showed him actually sliding into home, with Roseboro climbing the backstop in fear. I think there was also a Munsters episode where Herman tried out for the Dodgers, and of course the Beverly Hillbillies episode where Jethro tried to pitch but couldn't throw the ball straight without first applying possum fat. Turned out Elly May was a better pitcher, but Durocher (who was in the episode) didn't think O'Malley would go for signing a woman.
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Post by Rog on Jan 14, 2014 12:59:05 GMT -5
though I was aware they had become good friends in later life, I was unaware that Juan had delivered the eulogy at Roseboro's funeral. Rog -- That fact has been posted on this board before, as have many other facts describing the incident. That was the day Willie Mays stopped being a true Giant, since he walked the bloodied Roseboro to the clubhouse entrance. The other big melee in Candlestick that isn't discussed much involved simultaneous fights between Willie and Elio Chacon and between Orlando Cepeda and Roger Craig. That situation involved not the Dodgers, but the Mets. It too has been discussed here. It amazes me that someone who isn't a true Giants fan was there to witness both those events. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2168/marichal-roseboro#ixzz2qOasjKOd
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Post by Rog on Jan 14, 2014 13:02:29 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 15, 2014 13:35:30 GMT -5
Allen Said-Hard to imagine what snapped in Marichal that day. From what I've read, Juan was a dignified, classy, gentle guy. It just seems so out of character.
Read ---boly says---
I was watching the game that day, and I clearly remember all the tension and anxt that had been building as the season was winding down.
Emotions were high, tempers were short.
Back in those days, virtually EVERY Giant/Dodger game was a blow up waiting to happen.
Giants won in 62, Dodger in 63...both had major injuries or off seasons by players in 64.
In 1965, it was the immoveable object meeting the irresistable force.
Was it out of character? Sure it was.
But I think it's important to remember that when emotions are at their peak, when the stakes are soooo high, when there had been bad blood for so long, cool, calm and collected or not, any of us might have snapped had the catcher darned near clipped your ear throwing the ball back to the pitcher.
boly
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 15, 2014 23:16:52 GMT -5
Rog -- That fact has been posted on this board before, as have many other facts describing the incident.
That was the day Willie Mays stopped being a true Giant, since he walked the bloodied Roseboro to the clubhouse entrance.
Dood - it wasn't me that said that. Find me the quote that has Mays rooting for the Dodgers in the playoffs then I will agree his true Giant days are done. He didn't turn traitor like Marichal did and sign with LA. By the way, that does not mean I hate those guys or dont appreciate their contributions as Giants...just that their loyalty is in question to me now.
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Post by Rog on Jan 15, 2014 23:42:40 GMT -5
Rog -- That was the day Willie Mays stopped being a true Giant, since he walked the bloodied Roseboro to the clubhouse entrance. Dood - it wasn't me that said that. Find me the quote that has Mays rooting for the Dodgers in the playoffs then I will agree his true Giant days are done. He didn't turn traitor like Marichal did and sign with LA. By the way, that does not mean I hate those guys or dont appreciate their contributions as Giants...just that their loyalty is in question to me now. Rog -- So let's take a look at this: Despite having seen more Giants live than perhaps anyone else here on this board -- and almost certainly in more venues -- I'm not a true Giants fan because I root for them (and almost always the NL West and the National League) once the Giants are eliminated. Juan Marichal is a traitor because he continued his livelihood with the Dodgers after being traded for only money by the Giants. Brian Wilson is a traitor because he signed with the Dodgers after the Giants decided their place in the pennant race and their concerns about Wilson's health after two Tommy John surgeries. Willie Mays isn't a traitor even though he was a good friend of the "enemy" (Johnny Roseboro) and in fact fraternized and commiserated with Roseboro after Roseboro and his fellow Dodgers were directly confronting the Giants in of the most damaging melees. Three of those four statements are incorrect. Only a fool would believe otherwise IMO. Being a true Giants fans isn't about matching qualifications, Randy, but if it were, I wouldn't have much trouble prevailing. You don't seem to be able to compete with facts, so you heap on the innuendo. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2168/marichal-roseboro#ixzz2qX5Avs1u
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 16, 2014 0:37:22 GMT -5
Three of those four statements are incorrect. Only a fool would believe otherwise IMO.
Being a true Giants fans isn't about matching qualifications, Randy, but if it were, I wouldn't have much trouble prevailing. You don't seem to be able to compete with facts, so you heap on the innuendo.
Dood - believe how you want and I'll believe how I see it. I really couldn't care less what a loyalty-splitting stats geek believes.
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Post by Rog on Jan 16, 2014 10:28:13 GMT -5
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Post by Rog on Jan 16, 2014 10:32:58 GMT -5
Boly -- But I think it's important to remember that when emotions are at their peak, when the stakes are soooo high, when there had been bad blood for so long, cool, calm and collected or not, any of us might have snapped had the catcher darned near clipped your ear throwing the ball back to the pitcher. Rog -- I suspect that if Juan could take back anything in his life, that would be it. I suspect John too would have handled things a little differently. Sounds as if you saw the game on TV, Boly. Was anyone else here there to see it live? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2168/marichal-roseboro?page=1#scrollTo=18410#ixzz2qZl0iscf
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 16, 2014 23:40:29 GMT -5
Rog -- I suspect that if Juan could take back anything in his life, that would be it. I suspect John too would have handled things a little differently.
Sounds as if you saw the game on TV, Boly. Was anyone else here there to see it live?
---boly says---
It was on TV, Rog.
Back in those days the ONLY games we got to see were the games from Candlestick.
And man! As virtually the ONLY Giant fan in my neighborhood and school, I was wired into to those contests!
boly
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Post by Rog on Jan 17, 2014 13:28:58 GMT -5
The Dodgers games were about the only games on TV here too, Boly. And no HOME games at all.
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Post by klaiggeb on Jan 19, 2014 10:13:51 GMT -5
Rog says-The Dodgers games were about the only games on TV here too, Boly. And no HOME games at all.
---In 1970, my first duty assignment was at Beale AFB, in Yuba City, CA.
I remember being excited about being up there thinking I'd get to see some Giant games on TV (They didn't pay enough for me to even CONSIDER buying tickets! We struggled just to buy food!)
Weren't many, that's for sure, and I was disapponited.
boly
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Post by rxmeister on Jan 19, 2014 11:08:56 GMT -5
Did I just read right? Did Dood just call JUAN MARICHAL, one of the greatest Giants of all time, a TRAITOR for signing with the Dodgers in 1975 when no other baseball team including the Giants offered him a job and then he pitched all of two games for them? I make it a habit of avoiding name calling, so I'm referring to the comment alone when I say it's the dumbest thing I've read here, and my IQ dropped ten points just reading it. I have faith in Randy though, and would prefer to think he's got his tongue in his cheek here. But if not, I wonder if the Giants share his view. Oh no, wait, they built him a freaking statue outside AT&T ballpark!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 22, 2014 21:15:21 GMT -5
I'll have to go with RX's and Dk's innane backing of Obamacare as by far the dumbest statements I've read here.
It's very simple. The Dodgers and Giants are the bitterest of rivals in this sport. If you played for one for as long as Juan played for the Giants and then later sign with the rival, that means your loyalty to the original team is gone...finito...kaput. Did Juan have other options? I have no idea since I wasnt there. Has Juan later shown loyalty to the Giants? That's a debatable point. His popularity is certainly still strong among older Giants fans. I just know that at that particular moment, Juan chose to forego all loyalty to the city of San Francisco, the Giants fans who loved him and to the franchise that brought him off the island and into baseball fame and sign instead with the team that he knew would vex more people in the Bay Area than any other team in existence. Maybe his buddy Roseboro talked him into it.
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Post by Rog on Jan 22, 2014 22:32:37 GMT -5
Randy -- Did Juan have other options? I have no idea since I wasnt there. Rog -- I don't know if Juan had other options either, but it doesn't matter. Almost any player would go where he could earn the most money. I've never known a player who went from the Giants to the Dodgers, but I did get to know Nate Oliver a pee wee amount. Nate lived in the Bay Area and was coaching in the minors for the Angels. He didn't seem to make much of going from the Dodgers to the Giants. Heck, while none of us are likely to ever know for sure, it appears Jackie Robinson might well have become a Giant had he not already decided to retire. The evidence we have uncovered here strongly indicates the reaon for his retirement WASN'T that he was traded to the Giants, even though respectable historian Ken Burns said that was the case in his fine history of baseball. Excercising one's ability to choose where he plays certainly doesn't show disloyalty, despite some might say to the contrary. Randy -- Has Juan later shown loyalty to the Giants? That's a debatable point. Rog -- Never thought of it as an issue. I can tell you for sure that he was at the Giants' home opener in 1982, after he had failed to be voted into the Hall of Fame previously. I believe he participated in some Old Timers' games in Candlestick, and I'm pretty sure I remember him and his family there when he was honored after his Hall induction. He is a classy guy who after he retired became a political minister in the Dominican. Randy -- His popularity is certainly still strong among older Giants fans. I just know that at that particular moment, Juan chose to forego all loyalty to the city of San Francisco, Rog -- Actually, you don't know that at all. In fact, there is significant evidence to the contrary. To begin with, the fans still love him, as you admit. Of course, I suppose those fans aren't true Giants fans. In addition, the Giants have honored Juan many times, including having a statue built outside AT&T Park in his honor. I blieve we can assume the Giants don't consider him to be a traitor. Incidentally, I have NEVER heard anyone call Juan a traitor to the Giants -- except for you, of course. He is possibly the favorite San Francisco Giant aside from the two Willies. Here is a quote from Juan's biography in Wikipedia that might put Willie Mays in perspective for you: "The benches cleared into a 14-minute brawl, while Giants captain Willie Mays escorted the bleeding Roseboro (who would require 14 stitches) back to the clubhouse." So what we seem to have here is Mays and Marichal as traitors and only Jackie Robinson as a pure, tested player in the rivalry. Or one could look at the facts, which include several Hall of Famers' having played and/or managed for both teams. Then again, why let the facts get in the way? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2168/marichal-roseboro#ixzz2rBdmwtQF
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Jan 22, 2014 22:51:50 GMT -5
So what we seem to have here is Mays and Marichal as traitors and only Jackie Robinson as a pure, tested player in the rivalry.
Dood - of the two of us, only YOU have referred to Mays as a traitor.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 22, 2014 23:14:06 GMT -5
It's very simple. The Dodgers and Giants are the bitterest of rivals in this sport.
Allen- Yankees- Red Sox.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 22, 2014 23:16:23 GMT -5
I'll have to go with RX's and Dk's innane backing of Obamacare as by far the dumbest statements I've read here.
Allen- What happened to Mark? Maybe Cuomo found out his wife was pro-life or something and kicked him out of New York.
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Post by Rog on Jan 23, 2014 22:37:39 GMT -5
Rog -- So what we seem to have here is Mays and Marichal as traitors and only Jackie Robinson as a pure, tested player in the rivalry. Dood - of the two of us, only YOU have referred to Mays as a traitor. Rog -- Willie is my all-time favorite player, so I certainly don't consider him to be a traitor. You said though that anyone who didn't hate the Dodgers wasn't a true Giants fan, so I kind of extrapolated off that when discussing how Willie came to the aid of John Roseboro in that appalling incident. I can just imagine what you would have said about ME if I had walked with my arm around Johnny. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/2168/marichal-roseboro#ixzz2rHdQ9Qwr
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Post by rxmeister on Jan 24, 2014 11:53:58 GMT -5
Allen, my wife is an intelligent female and as such she believes a woman has a right to make her own decisions on what to do with her body, and not have her rights taken away by an elderly Republican. As for my "dumb" comments about Obamacare, I'm probably the most informed person on the subject on this board as a pharmacist. You guys read in the papers or watch it on Fox or listen to Rush and you get your third hand opinions from second hand sources, while I get mine straight from people who have actually benefitted from it. I see the decreased copays and get rx's from people who never had insurance before all day long. So you guys can continue to form your opinions from right wing extremists if you want, I get mine directly from seeing it in action.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 24, 2014 15:00:58 GMT -5
Spent a good portion of my life worjking in healthcare Mark. Still know alot of people that do. My wife works in the healthcare field. On the hospital level, no one is benefitting from Obamacare. Not patients, not nurses, not doctors. No one in the ancillary professions like Respiratory or Physical therapy, X-ray, ultrasound. No one. It's costing alot of people their jobs, causing less staff and doctors to be responsible for more patients. Wait times increases, quality of care suffers mightily. So much crowing because so many people have been added to the Medicaid roles. Taxpayers will pay more, and since the reimbursement rates are going down, many Drs. will simply refuse to take Medicaid patients. The main benefit of this was supposed to be that previously uninsured people would now be insured. Largely been a swing and a miss. Not many uninsured are signing up for the actual plans. Most are jumping on the Medicaid rolls, which is really inferior care. Once they go through the cycle this year, no young people sign up to subsidize the older, sicker people, and the thing starts to hemorrhage red ink, premiums will jump again. Employers are already dumping healthcare as a benefit. There's obviously been a huge net loss in the number of people insured. We haven't even mentioned the pure folly of allowing someone as incompetent and corrupt as the govt. to run something that makes up 1/6 of the economy. They immediately put their most corrupt organization (IRS) in charge of it. Well, DOJ may be more corrupt, but it's close. Whatever the govt. touches quickly turns to s*** and loses money in a way that seems economically impossible. Since the govt. produces nothing, who's going to pay for their losses? A few people may be saving on their prescriptions, millions are losing their insurance. When the employer mandate kicks in, that will probably increase like tenfold. What's truly sad about this is that many economists, insurance experts, and healthcare professionals (including Drs.) predicted that all this would happen when the law was passed. They saw right through all the Obama lies, seeing this as the money/power grab that it was. Didn't mean to make any presumptions about your wife, But I guess I did. Sorry. I assumed that since she was Dominican, she was probably Catholic. Most Catholics are pro-life. Why aren't people who believe in abortion known as anti-life?
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Post by allenreed on Jan 24, 2014 15:05:31 GMT -5
So, as a New Yorker Mark, what did you think of Cuomo's dictating who does and does not have a place in NY. More good ol' liberal tolerance.
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Post by donk33 on Jan 24, 2014 15:35:38 GMT -5
Spent a good portion of my life worjking in healthcare Mark. Still know alot of people that do. My wife works in the healthcare field. On the hospital level, no one is benefitting from Obamacare. Not patients, not nurses, not doctors. No one in the ancillary professions like Respiratory or Physical therapy, X-ray, ultrasound. No one. It's costing alot of people their jobs, causing less staff and doctors to be responsible for more patients. Wait times increases, quality of care suffers mightily. So much crowing because so many people have been added to the Medicaid roles. Taxpayers will pay more, and since the reimbursement rates are going down, many Drs. will simply refuse to take Medicaid patients. The main benefit of this was supposed to be that previously uninsured people would now be insured. Largely been a swing and a miss. Not many uninsured are signing up for the actual plans. Most are jumping on the Medicaid rolls, which is really inferior care. Once they go through the cycle this year, no young people sign up to subsidize the older, sicker people, and the thing starts to hemorrhage red ink, premiums will jump again. Employers are already dumping healthcare as a benefit. There's obviously been a huge net loss in the number of people insured. We haven't even mentioned the pure folly of allowing someone as incompetent and corrupt as the govt. to run something that makes up 1/6 of the economy. They immediately put their most corrupt organization (IRS) in charge of it. Well, DOJ may be more corrupt, but it's close. Whatever the govt. touches quickly turns to s*** and loses money in a way that seems economically impossible. Since the govt. produces nothing, who's going to pay for their losses? A few people may be saving on their prescriptions, millions are losing their insurance. When the employer mandate kicks in, that will probably increase like tenfold. What's truly sad about this is that many economists, insurance experts, and healthcare professionals (including Drs.) predicted that all this would happen when the law was passed. They saw right through all the Obama lies, seeing this as the money/power grab that it was. Didn't mean to make any presumptions about your wife, But I guess I did. Sorry. I assumed that since she was Dominican, she was probably Catholic. Most Catholics are pro-life. Why aren't people who believe in abortion known as anti-life? dk..gosh, more lies and half baked comments....Medicaid is part of the Obamacare package....the IRS and the government do not run Obama care...it is the greedy insurance companies who have kept increasing the price of medical care long before Obama came on the scene....what should bother you the most is that all the people in the medical field who complain the most are the ones running the insurance companies who sucked out the insurance money that should have gone to health care....what should also bother you is this is the one of a few major countries that doesn't have medical care cost controlled by their government...and we have terrible overall medical care for the population...
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Post by rxmeister on Jan 24, 2014 16:13:19 GMT -5
The insurance company and doctors WILL make less because of Obamacare so they should gripe. However we shouldn't care because they've always overcharged and are already rich and will remain that way. I've found that most patients who complain about Obamacare do so because they're ignorant. They assume anything bad is because of Obamacare, because that's what they hear on TV. If a medicine isn't covered, they blame Obama, even though the medicine was never covered in the first place. At the beginning of the year most insurance deductibles start over and the patient doesn't realize he has to pay more until the deductible is reached. They curse Obama when we tell them the price and we all laugh. In fact we make a joke of it at work. I send someone out for coffee for example, and when he gives me my change, I look at it and say, "is that all? The price went up? Freaking Obamacare!"
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Post by rxmeister on Jan 24, 2014 16:28:02 GMT -5
As for Cuomo's comments, I disagree with them, but I see what he was trying to say. He basically was saying there's no place in our state for haters, and was referring to the worst element of the Republican Party that are anti-gay, anti women's rights and racists when he said he didn't want them here. I'm sure Cuomo doesn't want liberal haters here either, if it makes you feel better Allen, but there's so few of them!
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Post by allenreed on Jan 24, 2014 19:37:57 GMT -5
quote]dk..gosh, more lies and half baked comments....Medicaid is part of the Obamacare package....the IRS and the government do not run Obama care...it is the greedy insurance companies who have kept increasing the price of medical care long before Obama came on the scene....what should bother you the most is that all the people in the medical field who complain the most are the ones running the insurance companies who sucked out the insurance money that should have gone to health care....what should also bother you is this is the one of a few major countries that doesn't have medical care cost controlled by their government...and we have terrible overall medical care for the population... [/quote]
Allen- Medicaid waa around long before Obama. It's subpar insurance for people who can't afford real healthcare. The IRS is responsible for determining subsidies, collecting fines, and collecting monies. I'm guessing Conervatives will pay more and attract more audits. That seems to be what the IRS now sees as their job. Obama on the IRS scandal? he went from being outraged and I will get to the bottom of this, to calling it a phony scandal. He then hired one of his biggest contributors to do the investigation. Corruption on steroids. Actually most of the people I've talked to are people who work in the healthcare field. They don't work for, let alone run, insurance companies.
Interesting that many people come here from other countries to take advantage of our healthcare system, often illegally and at taxpayer's expense. 71% of the populace was perfectly happy with their healthcare prior to Obamacare.
Why do liberals think the insurance companies should be happy to lose money in order to support Obamacare? Before they were happy, and their customers were happy. They're profit margin is alot lower than you would think.
Maybe other governments are more competent than ours. You've seen the job they've done with Obamacare so far, and the money they've spent on it, and the laws they've broke passing and implementing it. Millions have been hurt, millions more will be. What has the govt., and this administration in particular, handled successfully and economically?
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Post by allenreed on Jan 24, 2014 20:11:00 GMT -5
As for Cuomo's comments, I disagree with them, but I see what he was trying to say. He basically was saying there's no place in our state for haters, and was referring to the worst element of the Republican Party that are anti-gay, anti women's rights and racists when he said he didn't want them here. I'm sure Cuomo doesn't want liberal haters here either, if it makes you feel better Allen, but there's so few of them! Allen- Pro-lifers are haters? One of the choices in pro-choice is not getting pregnant in the first place. I don't think a woman should have the choice of having children she cannot support, and has no intention of raising. No reason I should have to pay for her child because she's too irresponsible, or too stupid to comprehend birth control. So no Obama and no Holder in NY. They're two of the biggest racists I've seen. Al Sharpton? Spike Lee? Jesse Jackson? Louis Farrakhan? Racists all. I think most of these last four live in NY. It amazes me that liberals think only white people are racists. So few liberal haters, or so few liberals? Liberals are supposed to be tolerant of other people's viewpoints, and tolerant of lifechoices other than their own. Your boy Cuomo is a walking, talking example of how untrue that is. Liberal is the biggest misnomer in the American language.
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Post by allenreed on Jan 24, 2014 20:23:35 GMT -5
The insurance company and doctors WILL make less because of Obamacare so they should gripe. However we shouldn't care because they've always overcharged and are already rich and will remain that way. I've found that most patients who complain about Obamacare do so because they're ignorant. They assume anything bad is because of Obamacare, because that's what they hear on TV. If a medicine isn't covered, they blame Obama, even though the medicine was never covered in the first place. At the beginning of the year most insurance deductibles start over and the patient doesn't realize he has to pay more until the deductible is reached. They curse Obama when we tell them the price and we all laugh. In fact we make a joke of it at work. I send someone out for coffee for example, and when he gives me my change, I look at it and say, "is that all? The price went up? Freaking Obamacare!" Allen- One of the biggest problems we have is a Dr. shortage. Many more will flee due to the excessive regulations, and poor reimbursement rates of Obamacare. Just one of the problems that Obamacare exacerbates. Profit margins for insurance companies are not as big as many think. Most people who complain about Obamacare do so because it's a fraud that was passed illegally, and that they were lied to about how it affected them. The incompetence in implementing it, and the illegal changes in the law since it's been passed, are further reason for complaint. Another would be the unanticipated rise in premiums and deductibles for many people who were told repeatedly by our President that they could keep their plan and their doctor.. I think anyone not complaining about it is ignorant, or like Don, a head in the sand Obama accolyte. Perhaps your customers figure that since they're paying so much more, and are being inconvenienced so much more maybe the coverage should be better
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