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Post by allenreed on Dec 6, 2013 14:46:34 GMT -5
llen -- I thought he had some potential. There's some players that were non-tendered who I think had some value. Garret Jones
Rog -- Jones has power, but he's a poor fielder and worse, when it comes to platoon possibilities, a lefty hitter. He also seems to be becoming more and more a first baseman, and the Giants are saying Brandon Belt won't be moved.
Allen- I thought I said this before, but I'm not saying he had value to the Giants necessarily, just that he had value. If I'm the Yankees, for example, I might look at Jones as a lefty DH and first baseman. I think the Yankees are going to have trouble with Texieria.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 6, 2013 15:05:53 GMT -5
Randy -- I hate any player that voluntarily switches from orange and black to Dodger blue
Rog -- For starters, think about hating not people but their actions. I'm sorry too that you hate Juan Marichal. He is clearly the greatest Giants pitcher of my lifetime.
Dood - I never saw Marichal play but I have to say he loses a lot of respect in my book for turning Benedict Arnold by signing with the Dodgers. I have more respect for Jackie Robinson who retired from baseball rather than accepting a trade to the Giants. That's what rivalry is all about.
But now it seems the rivalry is stronger on the part of the NorCal fans. We don't hear Dodgers fans chanting, "Beat SF," do we?
Dood - no, they just try to beat us to death in the parking lot.
Let me throw this one out at you, Randy. I'm at least as big a Giants fan as you,
Dood - disagree
and I don't hate the Dodgers. I don't exactly wish them well,
Dood - actually you did in the playoffs
but I certainly don't hate them. I try not to be irrational.
Dood - good for you. I prefer to be true to my team and zealously AGAINST the most hated rival of my team.
If the Giants weren't in the Bay Area, do you think you would root for them? I'm guessing the chances are that you wouldn't. On the contrary, the chances are that I would. I became a big-time Giants fan when I lived first in Cubs territory and later in Cardinals space.
Dood - whats that got to do with the price of eggs? The fact is I'm a true Giants fan who hates the Dodgers. You are a wishy washy fan who sometimes roots for the Dodgers.
In other words, you're more a fan of the San Francisco part of the San Francisco Giants. I'm more a Giants fan, regardless of where they happened to play.
Dood - no, you root for the Dodgers.
So one could make a strong argument that I am more a GIANTS fan than you.
Dood - you can make an argument for anything. But yours would be a weak one since you still root for the Dodgers.
So don't give me this utter crap that you're a bigger Giants fan than I. If you want to say you're a bigger San Francisco fan, possibly. But a bigger GIANTS fan? Highly unlikely.
Dood - ok...then what other big Giants fans root for the Dodgers in the playoffs?
I'm a pure GIANTS fan. You're a SAN FRANCISCO Giants fan. No WONDER you think you have to hate the Dodgers!
Dood - Giants fans have been hating the Dodgers since the teams were in NY still. NY fans of the Giants still hate the Dodgers and they NEVER root for them in the playoffs. You do.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 6, 2013 17:39:07 GMT -5
Actually, Juan was sold to the Red Sox, who then released him. He then signed as a FA with LA. I'm confused. Was he just supposed to quit his job rather than play for LA?
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Post by dk on Dec 6, 2013 18:11:33 GMT -5
just some quick history...Robinson retired to hurt O'Malley and because he knew he was through as a player. He called Stoneham and told him he would play for the Giants if he could still play. Camilli returned because he wouldn't play for the Giants. Many ball players have played for both the Dodgers and Giants when they were in NY and SF...Mungo, Hudson,Medwick, Duroucher, Baker, Fitzsimmons, Maglie, Marichal, etc....the one game I saw between the 2 teams in Brooklyn, the guy that got the biggest hand was Mel Ott...
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Post by allenreed on Dec 6, 2013 18:19:37 GMT -5
I believe Duke Snider finished his career with the Giants. In fact, I remember seeing him in a game my Dad took me to at the Stick. I remember seeing an interview with Duke where he said he couldn't stand Halloween because the dominant colors were orange and black.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 6, 2013 18:28:57 GMT -5
Quitting is exactly what Jackie Robinson did when the only other option was to play for the team he hated for most of his professional career. Obviously there wasn't depth of feeling as a Giant within Juan. He was a great player and represented the uniform well...but he was pretty much loyal just to his paycheck and did not bleed black and orange.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 6, 2013 18:43:22 GMT -5
It's a job Randy. It's how these guys make their living. As Don said, Robinson made a show about refusing to go to the Giants, but the real reason he retired was that he was no longer very good, and he thought it was time to get on with the next part of his life.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 7, 2013 12:01:17 GMT -5
Rog -- If the Giants weren't in the Bay Area, do you think you would root for them? I'm guessing the chances are that you wouldn't. On the contrary, the chances are that I would. I became a big-time Giants fan when I lived first in Cubs territory and later in Cardinals space. Dood - whats that got to do with the price of eggs? Rog -- It has nothing to do with the price of eggs. I suspect if you had any kind of decent argument here, you wouldn't have turned chicken here. (OK, that's an unfair shot, but I thought maybe it would be punny if not funny.) The point that I am a true GIANTS fan, while you are merely rooting for the home team, remains unrefuted. The Giants have been the favorite team of my family approaching a century. The only other guy here who would rival and likely exceed that is Don. Then again, he's from New York state, so he also is rooting for the "home" team. Now, you can argue that you could have rooted for the A's, and that is a fact, since they also are a local team. But if you rooted for say the Cubs, you would be a true CUBS, not simply rooting for the local team. I don't believe the Giants have ever been the local team for Boly and quite possibly not for Boagie either. They are true GIANTS fans. In reality, we're ALL Giants fans here -- and big ones at that. Your statement that I -- or anyone else here -- isn't a Giants fans is ridiculous. To say one has to hate the Dodgers to be a Giants fan is like saying one has to hate basketball to be a baseball fan. I believe Boly is the only one here who hates basketball, so I guess he's the only baseball fan among us. As for you, you are not only irrational in your hatred of the Dodgers (Hate attrocity, hate hunger, hate prejudice, not the Dodgers), you're irrational in saying I'm not a true Giants fan because I don't hate the Dodgers. By the way, since I'm a GIANTS fan and not a Dodger hater, I don't have to be untrue to myself when I root FOR the Dodgers (whose winning can on occasion HELP the Giants). You, on the other hand, do. If you are a pure Dodgers hater, a TRUE Dodgers hater, you can't root for them to win. So basically, you're not a true Dodgers hater. You're impure, Randy. Not saying there is anything wrong with that. Simply saying that it is clear that you are. It is possible to be a Giants fan without hating the Dodgers is possible, just hating the Dodgers doesn't automatically make one a Giants fan. Neither is a requirement for the other. It is you who tries to make it one. Your approach is irrational and indefensible. Not that you don't futily try. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#17400#ixzz2moB0Rb4Z |
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 7, 2013 12:21:25 GMT -5
Randy -- Quitting is exactly what Jackie Robinson did when the only other option was to play for the team he hated for most of his professional career. Rog -- But you haven't proven a cause and effect, have you? Jackie's most hated opponent wasn't the Giants. It was racism. By the way, I know it isn't necessary to hate the Dodgers (or at least their players) because when Jackie was traded to the Giants, my dad -- who may have been a bigger Giants fan than all of us here put together -- was really excited when the Giants traded for Jackie. And why not? While Jackie was clearly past his prime, he hit .275 with a .382 OBP and a .793 OPS in his final season. His OPS+ was 106, and he had a 4.6 WAR. We have already discussed that the top average WAR of any of the Giants' five signees this fall is Hunter Pence at 3.6. By the measure of War at least, Robinson in his final season of major league baseball was a better player than Hunter Pence has been in his prime. As for his retiring because he was traded to the Giants, you might want to read this, from his Wikipedia account: "In 1956, Robinson had 61 runs, a .275 batting average, and 12 steals.[140] By then, he had begun to exhibit the effects of diabetes, and to lose interest in the prospect of playing or managing professional baseball.[165] After the season, Robinson was traded by the Dodgers to the arch-rival New York Giants for Dick Littlefield and $35,000 cash (equal to $300,520 today). The trade, however, was never completed; unbeknownst to the Dodgers, Robinson had already agreed with the president of Chock full o'Nuts to quit baseball and become an executive with the company.[172] Since Robinson had sold exclusive rights to any retirement story to Look magazine two years previously,[172] his retirement decision was revealed through the magazine, instead of through the Dodgers organization." I certainly don't believe you did so intentionally, but in your ridiculous defense that one has to hate the Dodgers to be a true Giants fan, you have attempted to rewrite history. Incidentally, Don has already mentioned the above, so at the very least you should probably have done your homework. When you are using a point to help make an argument, it's usually a good idea to make sure the point is true. From the Library of Congress: "Jackie Robinson decided to retire from baseball after the 1956 season. He accepted a job offer from the Chock Full O' Nuts restaurant chain in New York and contracted with Look magazine to write an article to break the news and explain his reason "my legs are gone and I know it" (from Glenn Stout's Jackie Robinson, p. 178) (Robinson had worked with Look before, most recently to publish an autobiographical series in January and February 1955.) In December 1956, a month before the "My Future" article appeared, the Dodgers' general manager told Robinson that the team had traded him to the New York Giants. Robinson followed through with his retirement plans, although the Giants' management tried to change his mind." The Library of Congress account also states that Jackie served as Chock Full O' Nuts' vice president of personnel from 1957 through 1964. I hadn't know it before, but Jackie actually had a very distinguished career after leaving baseball. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#ixzz2moFQcFOg |
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 7, 2013 14:00:00 GMT -5
You root for the Dodgers. What kind of real Giants fan does that?
And Ken Burns' legendary baseball documentary cites the trade as the reason Robinson quit. I'm not saying Wikipedia lied...I'm just saying if the trade were made to any other team, Robinson would have put off his retirement.
~Dood
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Post by dk on Dec 7, 2013 14:11:10 GMT -5
You root for the Dodgers. What kind of real Giants fan does that? And Ken Burns' legendary baseball documentary cites the trade as the reason Robinson quit. I'm not saying Wikipedia lied...I'm just saying if the trade were made to any other team, Robinson would have put off his retirement. dk...you know as little about baseball as Ken Burns......Robinson was retiring before the trade.... |
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Post by allenreed on Dec 7, 2013 14:22:30 GMT -5
I remember reading in "The Boys of Summer" that Robinson was leaning toward retirement anyway. He and O'Malley's relationship was irreperably damaged, he knew his skills were fading fast, and he wanted to get on with his life. The trade to the Giants basically made the decision for him.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 7, 2013 16:25:53 GMT -5
I've heard both versions as well. I think the "romantic" version is to say he quit rather than go to the hated Giants, because that's such a baseball story and I would certainly expect Ken Burns to prefer that version of events. I've also heard he was flattered the Giants wanted him, but felt he couldn't perform at an elite level anymore and very cordially spoke to the Giants, saying he was retiring and wouldn't change his mind. Let's not forget the players didn't make as much money in those days, and an executive position probably paid better than being a ball player.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 8, 2013 11:21:29 GMT -5
Randy -- You root for the Dodgers. What kind of real Giants fan does that? Rog -- A real Giants fan who roots for the Dodgers if it affects the Giants in a positive manner or not at all. That's what kind of real Giants fan does that. By your logic, anyone who likes Fords isn't a Chevy fan. The two things are certainly related, but they're just as certainly not mutually exclusive. Incidentally, anyone who DOESN'T ever root for the Dodgers isn't a true Giants fan. That hypothetical fan would be allowing his hatred for the Dodgers to overshadow his love of the Giants. If rooting for the Dodgers can sometimes coincide with being a true Giants' fan, clearly the two aren't mutually exclusive. Think about it. In a logical manner. Randy -- And Ken Burns' legendary baseball documentary cites the trade as the reason Robinson quit. I'm not saying Wikipedia lied...I'm just saying if the trade were made to any other team, Robinson would have put off his retirement. Rog -- So you're going with Burns to refute both Wikipedia and the Library of Congress? That's not as out in left field as saying a true Giants' fan can never root for the Dodgers, but it isn't very logical, either. Remember too that Burns' saying that Jackie retired because of the trade to the Giants fits pretty neatly into the story of baseball --- whether entirely true or not. The Chronicle's John Shea wrote on Jackie Robinson Day this past season "Jackie Robinson was traded to the Giants on Dec. 13, 1956 – nine years after he broke the color barrier — and both the Giants and Dodgers figured Jackie would switch teams. But he retired instead. To assume it was because he simply wouldn’t play for the Dodgers’ chief rival would be wrong. Robinson had other reasons, which he had to keep to himself for contractual reasons. He was moving on to another career and had no intention of playing for the Dodgers, let alone the Giants. He had a falling out with Dodgers’ management, which no longer was led by Branch Rickey, who signed Robinson, but by Walter O’Malley and Buzzie Bavasi, even manager Walter Alston. He was approaching 38 and wanted the type of security for his family that baseball wouldn’t offer, so he chose to enter the business world, and here are more details in my column, including a letter he wrote to Giants owner Horace Stoneham stating 'it would have been a pleasure' to play for his team." At the same time Jon Weisman wrote: "Jackie Robinson was traded to the Giants on Dec. 13, 1956 – nine years after he broke the color barrier — and both the Giants and Dodgers figured Jackie would switch teams. But he retired instead. To assume it was because he simply wouldn’t play for the Dodgers’ chief rival would be wrong." I'm sorry, Randy. Often you have good ideas. But on this foolish "can't be a true Giants fan and root for the Dodgers in certain circumstances," you're dead wrong. If you're going to accuse a guy who was a fan of the Giants before they moved to San Francisco of not being a true Giants fan, you'd better bring your A game instead of false statements and illogical attitudes. In short, you should respect the truth. Robinson had other reasons, which he had to keep to himself for contractual reasons. He was moving on to another career and had no intention of playing for the Dodgers, let alone the Giants. He had a falling out with Dodgers’ management, which no longer was led by Branch Rickey, who signed Robinson, but by Walter O’Malley and Buzzie Bavasi, even manager Walter Alston. He was approaching 38 and wanted the type of security for his family that baseball wouldn’t offer, so he chose to enter the business world, and here are more details in my column, including a letter he wrote to Giants owner Horace Stoneham stating “it would have been a pleasure” to play for his team. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#17440#ixzz2mtqXD21e |
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 8, 2013 11:23:55 GMT -5
Sorry for inadvertently inserting my own two paragraphs into Jon Weisman's work.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 9, 2013 12:52:24 GMT -5
By your logic, anyone who likes Fords isn't a Chevy fan. The two things are certainly related, but they're just as certainly not mutually exclusive.
Dood - no. But if you are loyal to one, you certainly wont buy a model of the other
Incidentally, anyone who DOESN'T ever root for the Dodgers isn't a true Giants fan. That hypothetical fan would be allowing his hatred for the Dodgers to overshadow his love of the Giants.
If rooting for the Dodgers can sometimes coincide with being a true Giants' fan, clearly the two aren't mutually exclusive. Think about it. In a logical manner.
Dood - one can root for a Dodger opponent to lose in the regular season without rooting for the Dodgers implicitly, assuming that Dodger win somehow aids the Giants' cause. However, in the playoffs this doesn't apply. If a fan roots for the Dodgers to win in the playoffs, he is not a true fan of the Giants...PERIOD.
~Dood
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 9, 2013 13:33:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry, Randy. Often you have good ideas. But on this foolish "can't be a true Giants fan and root for the Dodgers in certain circumstances," you're dead wrong.
---boly says---
rog, I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.
Being a Giants fan MEANS hating the Dodgers, and vice-versa.
The ONLY time I would PULL for the Dodgers, (not root, pull), is when we need them to win to help our cause.
I PULL for them, but never root for them.
Yeah, picking nits, maybe, but as a writer, those are important differences to me.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 9, 2013 13:34:08 GMT -5
I believe Duke Snider finished his career with the Giants. In fact, I remember seeing him in a game my Dad took me to at the Stick. I remember seeing an interview with Duke where he said he couldn't stand Halloween because the dominant colors were orange and black.
---boly says---
Yep! 1964. and He was sad to watch because he was but a slim shadow of what he had been.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 9, 2013 21:28:45 GMT -5
I understand what you guys are saying about this Giants/Dodgers thing, but it makes no more sense than saying you can't be a fan of your son if you root for a friend of his when it doesn't affect your son.
I understand what you guys are saying, but if we brought someone in who didn't know sports but was looking only logically, he would say there is no true logic to your position.
I realize fan comes from fanatic. From that standpoint I get it. From a logical standpoint, no way.
Can't be a fan of baseball if you like basketball? Hardly. Hey, I don't even LIKE the Dodgers. I simply don't hate them.
Boly, you know that one should hate the actions, not the person or persons. I DO hate it when the Dodgers beat out the Giants, just as I hate it when any other team does. But I don't hate the Dodgers or any other team.
Because of that, I don't have any ambiguity when the Dodgers' winning helps the Giants. I realize, Randy, that you say you don't root for the Dodgers to win, but for the other team to lose. Well, that's precisely what I root for -- except that without the Dodgers' winning, the other team can't lose.
As for my rooting for the Dodgers once the Giants are out of it, that has no effect on the Giants, so it certainly doesn't disqualify me from being a true Giants fan.
If I'm not a true Giants fan, no such thing exists.
I have been told by one of the presenters of the SF Giants 20th century team that had my dad lived, he would have been the one to make the presentation to Chris Speier. Chris autographed to my dad a bat from his last game as a Giant, for crying out loud. He autographed it "Frank, this is a bat from my last game. God bless, Chris Speier."
My dad was DELIGHTED when the Giants traded for Jackie Robinson, knowing how important Jackie was to the game and how great a player he had been. Did that mean my dad wasn't a true Giants fan? Hardly.
If he weren't a true Giants fan, why did he watch more than 2000 Giants games live?
Why, pray tell, did Willie Mays personally walk Johnny Roseboro to the entrance to the Dodgers clubhouse at the end of the Marichal/Roseboro incident? Why did Marichal himself become a member of the Dodgers?
Are you going to say that Mays and Marichal weren't true Giants fans and players?
Given that fan comes from fanatic, I understand your position. I have a hard time with it because it enjoys no logic.
By the way, the Giants have more players in the Hall of Fame than any other franchise, and one of the reasons is that they have picked up great players such as Snider, Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton and Gary Carter at the tail end of those players' careers.
Speaking of Hall of Famers, Leo Durocher (recently joined by Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre) was a Hall of Fame manager. Of course, since Leo had been a Dodger, the Giants didn't hire him to manage them, Willie Mays had a horrible rookie season because the actual Giants manager didn't support him as Leo would have, and the Giants didn't win the 1951 playoffs from the ... Dodgers.
Again, I understand your point. But if you were logical, you can see how much the Giants would have missed in 1951.
When one has to back up his point of view by saying that Jackie Robinson retired because he didn't want to play for the Giants, we can see that not only was logic lacking, so to was the truth.
Just because one roots to have apples on his plate doesn't mean he's not a true fan of oranges.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 9, 2013 21:57:09 GMT -5
I understand what you guys are saying about this Giants/Dodgers thing, but it makes no more sense than saying you can't be a fan of your son if you root for a friend of his when it doesn't affect your son.
Dood - How do you equate the Dodgers being like a "friend" of the Giants? That in itself proves you just don't get it and probably never will.
I understand what you guys are saying, but if we brought someone in who didn't know sports but was looking only logically, he would say there is no true logic to your position.
Dood - it's not supposed to be logical outside the realm of pure rivalry. If your hypothetical outsider understands the logic of rivalry, then he would definitely understand our thinking.
Can't be a fan of baseball if you like basketball? Hardly. Hey, I don't even LIKE the Dodgers. I simply don't hate them.
Dood - basketball and baseball do not compete and certainly do not rise to the level of rivals. You certainly like the Dodgers enough to root for them to do well in postseason. That disqualifies you from being a true Giants fan.
Boly, you know that one should hate the actions, not the person or persons. I DO hate it when the Dodgers beat out the Giants, just as I hate it when any other team does. But I don't hate the Dodgers or any other team.
Dood - once again, comparing apples to oranges. Rivalry puts things onto a completely seperate plane.
As for my rooting for the Dodgers once the Giants are out of it, that has no effect on the Giants, so it certainly doesn't disqualify me from being a true Giants fan.
Dood - it may have no effect on the Giants but it has a HUGE effect on Dodger-hating TRUE fans of the Giants. Since you aren't one of us, you cannot hope to understand this.
If I'm not a true Giants fan, no such thing exists.
Dood - you just don't understand rivalry, and thus you aren't a true Giants fan since the Giants are a part of maybe the fiercest rivalry in sports.
My dad was DELIGHTED when the Giants traded for Jackie Robinson, knowing how important Jackie was to the game and how great a player he had been. Did that mean my dad wasn't a true Giants fan? Hardly.
Dood - Giants fans always want the team to be improved in any way. However, after finding out Jackie would prefer to quit than play for the Giants, I would say Giants fans would all say "to hell with you."
Are you going to say that Mays and Marichal weren't true Giants fans and players?
Dood - They were both great players and did great things as Giants. Marichal willingly played for the Dodgers so I can't say he remained loyal to the Giants. Mays always has.
Given that fan comes from fanatic, I understand your position. I have a hard time with it because it enjoys no logic.
Dood - fanaticism isn't meant to be logical by the standards of normal society.
By the way, the Giants have more players in the Hall of Fame than any other franchise, and one of the reasons is that they have picked up great players such as Snider, Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton and Gary Carter at the tail end of those players' careers.
Dood - what does that have to do with being a true Giants fan?
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:12:17 GMT -5
Rog -- I understand what you guys are saying, but if we brought someone in who didn't know sports but was looking only logically, he would say there is no true logic to your position. Dood - it's not supposed to be logical outside the realm of pure rivalry Rog -- And there you have it. Being a Giants fan has only to do with the Giants. Let's put it this way, Randy. I would be a Giants fan whether there was a rivalry with the Dodgers or not. Having a rivalry with the Dodgers, or the Diamondbacks, or the A's or whatever is an adjunct to being a Giants fan, but hating the Dodgers isn't a requirement of being a Giants fan. Under your definition, a person who roots for the Giants but doesn't hate the Dodgers isn't a true Giants fan, while a person who roots for the Padres and DOES hat the Dodgers IS a true Giants fan. Look at the sets and subsets. There are Giants fans and those who hate the Dodgers. Those two sets overlap at times. Those who are Giants fans are Giants fans (duh). Those who hate the Dodgers may or may not be Giants fans. For you to think you're more of a Giants fan that a third-generation Giants fan whose family legacy with the Giants goes back nearly a century is just foolish, Randy. I have been friends with Chris Speier, and I've been friends with Tim Lincecum's dad. I've had dinner with a few other Giants players. For you to say you're more of a Giants fan than I is just stupid, Randy. I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm simply saying that on this one point you are being so. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#17502#ixzz2n5nS3zFa |
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:13:36 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 10, 2013 12:18:18 GMT -5
Dood - basketball and baseball do not compete
Rog -- Yeah, they do, Randy. They compete for the sports entertainment dollar.
Dood - not directly...their seasons do not coincide.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:19:47 GMT -5
Rog -- If I'm not a true Giants fan, no such thing exists. Dood - you just don't understand rivalry, and thus you aren't a true Giants fan since the Giants are a part of maybe the fiercest rivalry in sports. Rog -- Accuse me of not understanding rivalry (which I clearly do, by the way; it's not a huge mystery), but don't accuse me of not being a true Giants fan. You won't find anyone who knows me well, even a person who may not like me, who will agree with you. When a party is given, I'm known as the guy you can talk Giants with. Wouldn't you say the test of a true fan is to root for his team continuously? When have you EVER seen me not root for the Giants? I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time dealing with your lack of logic here. Hating the Dodgers is NOT a prerequisite for rooting for the Giants. There are thousands, probably millions, who hate the Dodgers but aren't Giants fans. Unless someone roots for the Dodgers OVER the Giants, he can certainly be a true Giants fan. How can anyone think otherwise? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#ixzz2n5pyO6HE |
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:25:39 GMT -5
Randy -- My dad was DELIGHTED when the Giants traded for Jackie Robinson, knowing how important Jackie was to the game and how great a player he had been. Did that mean my dad wasn't a true Giants fan? Hardly. Dood - Giants fans always want the team to be improved in any way. However, after finding out Jackie would prefer to quit than play for the Giants, I would say Giants fans would all say "to hell with you." Rog -- You just contradicted yourself, Randy. You say Giants fans always want their team to improve, yet you also say you hate the Dodgers (and by inference, anyone who plays for them). Because you think one has to have it both ways (love the Giants and hate the Dodgers), you find yourself in conflict with yourself when it actually benefits the Giants for the Dodgers to win or when the Giants acquire an ex-Dodger. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#ixzz2n5rTyyKr |
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:26:43 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on Dec 10, 2013 12:28:34 GMT -5
They played for another team. Continued to ply their trade. It's not like they went to fight with Al Qaeda.
Basketball runs well into baseball season.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:29:04 GMT -5
Dood - basketball and baseball do not compete Rog -- Yeah, they do, Randy. They compete for the sports entertainment dollar. Dood - not directly...their seasons do not coincide. Rog -- Where is the logic here? First, the two seasons do overlap. When one includes training camp and the playoffs, they overlap by about five months. Second, there are only so many dollars a fan can come up with for his sports entertainment. Both sports ARE competing for those dollars. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2118&page=2#ixzz2n5tEL6Qk |
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 10, 2013 12:30:45 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 10, 2013 12:43:05 GMT -5
Rog -- And there you have it. Being a Giants fan has only to do with the Giants. Let's put it this way, Randy. I would be a Giants fan whether there was a rivalry with the Dodgers or not.
Dood - possibly...but the fact is there IS a rivalry so the hypo doesn't fit.
Having a rivalry with the Dodgers, or the Diamondbacks, or the A's or whatever is an adjunct to being a Giants fan, but hating the Dodgers isn't a requirement of being a Giants fan.
Dood - maybe not...but if you want to openly root for the Dodgers in the playoffs, I doubt many true Giants fans will consider you one of them.
Under your definition, a person who roots for the Giants but doesn't hate the Dodgers isn't a true Giants fan, while a person who roots for the Padres and DOES hat the Dodgers IS a true Giants fan.
Dood - I don't root for any of those other teams either, but I can certainly see doing so under some circumstances, since there is no huge rivalry with them. I can't ever see myself rooting for the Dodgers in the playoffs. To a true Giants fan that should be stomach turning and sacreligeous.
Look at the sets and subsets. There are Giants fans and those who hate the Dodgers. Those two sets overlap at times.
Dood - you keep trying to use logic and math to explain away the fact that you simply are NOT as emotionally invested in the team. You seem to think that it's ok to switch loyalty not to just any other team but to the most hated rival (and I'll point out that this distinction has been made by those outside of the rivalry). Whether you want to call it hate or loathing or severe distaste...point is there should never be a time when the rival's success is something we should be happy about.
For you to think you're more of a Giants fan that a third-generation Giants fan whose family legacy with the Giants goes back nearly a century is just foolish, Randy.
Dood - I don't care what your family legacy is. I have seen legacies fall short of family history in many areas. The way I measure it is emotion. If you are emotionally invested then you are more of a fan because it is physically painful when your team loses AND when the heated rival wins. If you don't feel that pain then you are just a mild fan.
I have been friends with Chris Speier, and I've been friends with Tim Lincecum's dad. I've had dinner with a few other Giants players. For you to say you're more of a Giants fan than I is just stupid, Randy.
Dood - So what? Do you think there are people that know either Tim or Chris personally who are NOT fans of the Giants? I'm going to say there are more than a few. I've spent time with a few ex-Giants myself but that doesn't make me any more of a fan...it just makes me lucky.
I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm simply saying that on this one point you are being so.
Dood - I couldn't care less what you think. I know I'm not stupid but I also know being a true fan sometimes people will think I'm foolish...and I don't mind that at all because I feel things they don't and never could.
~Dood
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