|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 28, 2013 23:57:55 GMT -5
Bleacher Reports recently did an article in which they picked their top 10 "chemistry" free agents.
#1 on the list? Carlos Beltran.
Here is part of what Bleacher Reports wrote:
For all of his on-field accomplishments, he's equally renowned within the clubhouse and the community. During the 2013 playoffs, MLB named Beltran the winner of the Roberto Clemente Award. Vera Clemente, Roberto's widow and an MLB goodwill ambassador, gave Beltran her stamp of approval, as per MLB.com:
I must say this year's recipient truly exemplifies Roberto's philosophy. Carlos Beltran, you are the pride of all Puerto Ricans, and a great representative around the world.
It's high praise indeed for Beltran. And one thing is for certain: Whichever team signs Beltran next will be getting not only one of the best players on the free-agent market, but also one of the best guys in all of baseball.
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Nov 29, 2013 7:52:21 GMT -5
Tell that to Boagie!
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 29, 2013 11:02:09 GMT -5
The Roberto Clemente award was never given to Barry Zito, which makes me question its true merit.
|
|
|
Post by allenreed on Nov 29, 2013 11:45:20 GMT -5
Your continued promotion of Beltran is almost as baffling as Boagie's hatred of him.
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 29, 2013 14:06:59 GMT -5
What's baffling is that I'm alone in my disliking of a rental player that was supposed to be our savior in 2011. Not only wasn't he our savior, he sat on the bench protecting his contract while we sunk in the standings. He bribed the manager of the defending world champs for his number and spouted off in the media about how the Giants didn't contact him after the season. I don't know about his personal life, but as a Giant he sucked.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2013 14:20:37 GMT -5
Boagie -- The Roberto Clemente award was never given to Barry Zito, which makes me question its true merit. Rog -- I'm assuming you're serious here. I don't know all the things Barry did, but I suspect he was a good candidate as well. And we tend to think "our" candidate is the best of the best. I don't know whether Carlos deserved the award or not. I suspect there were others more deserving, as deserving, or nearly as deserving. But the point is that Carlos appears to be a good guy. I also don't know whether he deserved to be picked the #1 chemistry guy among all free agents. But it would appear he's a pretty good guy for chemistry. His postseason stats also indicate he's a clutch player (although his small sample with the Giants might indicate otherwise). His regular season stats indicate he hits best with RISP, next best with runners on, and worst with no one on. Jay Jaffe's JAWS system of evaluating Hall of Famers indicate Beltran is already just shy of the average Hall of Fame center fielder and could perhaps cross that threshhold as soon as this season. If not for his many career injuries, Carlos would almost surely be there right now. Let me add a few things: . I personally wouldn't pick Carlos for the Hall, and I doubt he can do enough before his career is over to convince me otherwise. . I agree with you that Carlos didn't hit well for the Giants in what would normally be considered the clutch, as his very low RBI totals indicate. I agree with you that he hit very poorly before he was injured that season, and the Giants were pretty much out of it when he returned 15 games later. . I would have signed Carlos to the same 7/$119 contract the Mets signed him to. The Mets got decent value from that contract, and if not for his injuries, they likely would have received a very nice value. . You said Carlos didn't want to come to the Giants, but he waived his no-trade contract to do so. Aside from Carlos' multiple serious injuries, there is little to criticize in his illustrious career -- apparently on or off the field. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#17171#ixzz2m3x3nP2O
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2013 14:25:21 GMT -5
Allen -- Your continued promotion of Beltran is almost as baffling as Boagie's hatred of him. Rog -- I truly don't like it when someone shows prejudice, which I feel Boagie does when it comes to Carlos -- in spades. IMO another example of that occurred the past two days when you appeared so blind in your political beliefs that you couldn't see that my mentioning that as Americans we should also support Muslim holidays applied to the fact that there are Muslims -- many of them good Americans, just as is the case with the other religions in America. You had to bring the Nazi's into the discussion. In other words, you took a loving discussion of all we have to be thankful for and turned it into hatred. That's Hatesgiving, Allen. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2m427uSwv
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 29, 2013 15:45:55 GMT -5
Rog -- I'm assuming you're serious here. I don't know all the things Barry did, but I suspect he was a good candidate as well. And we tend to think "our" candidate is the best of the best.
Boagie- In this case our candidate was the best candidate. As we know, Barry started the Strikeouts for Troops foundation which has not only grown baseball wide, but also sports wide. He didn't just throw money at it, he's been a spokesman and got other players involved along with organizing events.
In the 7 years since Barry started it, Barry hasn't won the Clemente award. Since they have decided Zito is undeserving of the award, then I believe the award is undeserving of being a legitimate talking point.
I have a sneaking suspicion that if Barry were of a different race and or helping a different race of people he'd have won it hands down. But since he's a white pitcher who hasn't been very successful on the field, and his dedication has been to those evil, baby killing, American troops, the voters have decided he's not worthy. The voters are largely made up of the mainstream media, by the way.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2013 16:06:42 GMT -5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rog -- I'm assuming you're serious here. I don't know all the things Barry did, but I suspect he was a good candidate as well. And we tend to think "our" candidate is the best of the best. Boagie- In this case our candidate was the best candidate. As we know, Barry started the Strikeouts for Troops foundation which has not only grown baseball wide, but also sports wide. He didn't just throw money at it, he's been a spokesman and got other players involved along with organizing events. In the 7 years since Barry started it, Barry hasn't won the Clemente award. Since they have decided Zito is undeserving of the award, then I believe the award is undeserving of being a legitimate talking point. I have a sneaking suspicion that if Barry were of a different race and or helping a different race of people he'd have won it hands down. But since he's a white pitcher who hasn't been very successful on the field, and his dedication has been to those evil, baby killing, American troops, the voters have decided he's not worthy. The voters are largely made up of the mainstream media, by the way. Rog -- You know precisely what contributions each and every candidate made, right? That's how you know Barry was the most qualified. Put another way, if you don't know the contributions every other candidate made, you don't know Barry was the most qualified. I'm not saying he wasn't. I'm simply saying you don't know either. In other thread, I just said that Cody Ross is essentially a platoon player. I can back that up with facts. Here, you are saying Barry Zito deserved the Roberto Clemente Award. Maybe he did. You certainly showed some nice facts to back your opinion up. But since you are saying he should have won over 29 or more other candidates, you should be comparing his accomplishments in this area with those of the other top candidates. Even then it would come down to opinion, but at least you would have done a decent job of substantiating yours. We're each entitled to his opinions here, Boagie, but why in the heck express an opinion you haven't taken the time to analyze? If you had said that Barry Zito did a lot and easily could have been the winner of the award, I would agree with you. But for you to say he was the best candidate without knowing the qualifications of the other candidates seems foolish to me. It's great that you support Barry. With the exception of 2008, 2011 (injury) and last season, he was a better pitcher than he was given credit for. (Although it should be noted that in 2012 he was very likely overrated.) But if we look at Barry's other three seasons as a Giant, his ERA+ figures were 99, 105 and 94. That's right around league average pitching. Unfortunately his final three seasons as a Giant dropped his ERA+ as a Giant to just 86, and he didn't come close to justifying his foolish contract, but in three of his first four seasons as a Giant, he was mostly decent to average. I can back up those opinions pretty strongly, since with ERA+ I am comparing him to the other National League pitchers. The only real question would likely be 2012, when one could argue that his 15-8 record made him a much better pitcher than his 85 ERA+ showed. Of course, that would rather ignore Barry's 4.76 run support. One thing that did play in his favor record-wise was his inconsistency. Even though it seems counter-intuitive, we have demonstrated here that the more inconsistent a pitcher is in compiling the same ERA, the better his won-loss record is likely to be. Barry took excellent advantage of that little-known factor. But back early in his contract when people were talking about how horrible he was, he wasn't all that bad. And when they said his horrible contract would prevent the Giants from being successful, 2010 and 2012 proved them wrong. Along with the excellent charitable contributions you cited here, Boagie, the thing I most admire Barry for was the way he took the high road when he was left off the 2010 postseason rosters, remaining an enthusiastic teammate, when he had to be hurting badly inside. That the fans finally did come to appreciate Barry was shown with the fine ovation he received in his final Giants appearance. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#17180#ixzz2m4NlKpPL
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2013 16:19:36 GMT -5
Boagie -- What's baffling is that I'm alone in my disliking of a rental player that was supposed to be our savior in 2011. Rog -- Why was he supposed to be the Giants' savior? He was traded for in order to supplement what was considered to be a good team (one which finished 10 games over .500), not to be a savior. If you thought he was signed to be a savior, no wonder you were disappointed. Boagie -- Not only wasn't he our savior, he sat on the bench protecting his contract while we sunk in the standings. Rog -- Let's look at the logic of that. First of all, he was retroactcively placed on the disabled list, which indicates that he and the Giants made every reasonable effort for him to be able to play as soon as possible, and also that he was significantly injured enough to go on the disabled list. Secondly, he waived his no-trade contract to come to the Giants, likely because they were the defending World Champions, and he thought he could help them reach the playoffs once again. His best chance of being re-signed by the Giants was to help them as much as possible -- not to pad his stats. Boagie -- He bribed the manager of the defending world champs for his number Rog -- How many times do you need to hear that Bochy said he would give up his number voluntarily and was surprised and pleased to receive an unexpected Rolex watch in the off-season? Boagie -- and spouted off in the media about how the Giants didn't contact him after the season. Rog -- Given that he waived his no-trade contract to play for the Giants, you don't think he was hurt when they didn't try to re-sign him? Let's face it. The Giants compounded the two worst trades of the Brian Sabean era by not trying to re-sign the players they gave too much up for. They didn't offer A.J. Pierzynski arbitration after his one season with the team, and they didn't try to re-sign Carlos Beltran. Boagie -- I don't know about his personal life, but as a Giant he sucked. Rog -- Many would argue with you about how well he played as a Giant, ciiting his Hall of Fame level OPs (.920) and his playing through his recovery from a very serious knee injury (which had caused him to miss over half the previous two seasons). You say you don't know about his personal life, yet you say Barry Zito deserved the Roberto Clemente Award more than Carlos did. If you don't know about his personal life, how can you know he didn't deserve the award? Why don't you simply admit you made a mistake here and get on with your many other better evaluations? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2m4SvCCH0
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Nov 29, 2013 17:11:48 GMT -5
Rog, I really like Boagie, but you can't really get through to him on Beltran and I refuse to waste my time doing it yet again. We already pointed out all the flaws in his arguments against Carlos, and he always brings us back to square one with his complaints, so why rehash it again?
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2013 20:17:57 GMT -5
I guess you rang the bell with that one, Mark.
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 29, 2013 23:22:32 GMT -5
The only reason we're talking about Beltran again is because Rog lost the Nightingale argument.
Mark, square one is all that matters to me. He can spoon feed all the Puerto Rican kids for the cameras for hours, it still won't make his time with the Giants a success. He came here as a rental player and shit the bed, period. Rental players are supposed to produce right away, thats why we give up young talent for them, we sacrifice the future for immediate production. Someday you guys will learn that and maybe understand the game beyond empty stats.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 30, 2013 13:01:31 GMT -5
Boagie -- The only reason we're talking about Beltran again is because Rog lost the Nightingale argument. Rog -- You're kidding, right? Boagie -- Mark, square one is all that matters to me. Rog -- And clearly you're stuck on it. Boagie -- He can spoon feed all the Puerto Rican kids for the cameras for hours, it still won't make his time with the Giants a success. Rog -- Of course not. And whether it was or not depends on how one defines it. Certainly the Giants weren't successful in achieving their goal. As for Beltran himself, he put up an OPS over .900. Boagie -- He came here as a rental player and shit the bed, period. Rog -- How can you be so sanctimonious? As Mark said, your mind is made up even though your logic is poor. Boagie -- Rental players are supposed to produce right away, thats why we give up young talent for them, we sacrifice the future for immediate production. Rog -- ANY player acquired by any means is supposed to produce, although saying that they must do so right away might be carrying it a bit too far. Instead of pointing the finger at Beltran, Boagie, why not look at the rest of the team, which deserves at least as much criticism as Beltran does. Do you think that if Brian Sabean thought the team was good enough, he would have traded Zack Wheeler? Boagie -- Someday you guys will learn that and maybe understand the game beyond empty stats. Rog -- I'm sorry, Boagie. Maybe it's just because we're older. But Mark and I DO understand the game better than you. Or maybe it's just that we keep an open mind. Whatever the problem, you're just being a baby here. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#17204#ixzz2m9X3DR4p
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 30, 2013 15:40:02 GMT -5
The only one stuck on this topic is you. You started this thread and have brought up Beltran's name in numerous other posts to try to sway my opinion of him. I stated my opinion, and considering the amount of boos he received at AT&T my opinion isn't alone. We can go around and around, my opinion of him won't change until he wears the Giants jersey again and contributes to some Giant wins when we're still in a pennant race. I don't see that happening, so let's just leave it at that.
By the way, I'm perfectly fine with your opinion of him. You're allowed to have opinions that differ from mine, even if you're wrong.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 2, 2013 17:24:49 GMT -5
What's baffling is that I'm alone in my disliking of a rental player that was supposed to be our savior in 2011. Not only wasn't he our savior, he sat on the bench protecting his contract while we sunk in the standings. He bribed the manager of the defending world champs for his number and spouted off in the media about how the Giants didn't contact him after the season. I don't know about his personal life, but as a Giant he sucked
Re---boly says---
Boagie, believe me, you're NOT alone in this.
I'm still angry at what he didn't do.
I expected more.
boly
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 2, 2013 21:55:14 GMT -5
Boagie -- What's baffling is that I'm alone in my disliking of a rental player that was supposed to be our savior in 2011. Not only wasn't he our savior, he sat on the bench protecting his contract while we sunk in the standings. He bribed the manager of the defending world champs for his number and spouted off in the media about how the Giants didn't contact him after the season. I don't know about his personal life, but as a Giant he sucked Re---boly says--- Boagie, believe me, you're NOT alone in this. I'm still angry at what he didn't do. I expected more. Rog -- No question Carlos' hitting with the Giants wasn't very timely, but should we be less happy with his .323 batting average and .920 OPS than we are with Hunter Pence's .219 and .671 the following season after the trade deadline? I'm a bit confused at how Carlos is looked at as a bum while Hunter is looked at as somewhat of a hero. Could it be based on the performance of the team more than the individual performances of the players? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#17237#ixzz2mNOVFkQ7
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Dec 3, 2013 0:16:42 GMT -5
Thank you, Boly. Its nice to know I'm not alone on this board.
As for you, Rog. Look up the RISP numbers for Pence and Beltran and really study them. While you're looking at them ask yourself about the performance of the two teams and why they were better in 2012. I believe the numbers will show you the answer.
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Dec 3, 2013 9:54:02 GMT -5
I expected more.
Rog -- No question Carlos' hitting with the Giants wasn't very timely, but should we be less happy with his .323 batting average and .920 OPS than we are with Hunter Pence's .219 and .671 the following season after the trade deadline?
I'm a bit confused at how Carlos is looked at as a bum while Hunter is looked at as somewhat of a hero. Could it be based on the performance of the team more than the individual performances of the players?
R---boly says---
Rog, you ask a good question, and I'll do my best to answer it.
For me, first and formost, is what I SEE on the field.
With Hunter you can SEE his constant hustle and enthusiasm.
Not so with Beltran. Yes, he puts up good numbers, but it "looks" like he is just going through the motions.
So, yes, his numbers are fine, but I keep asking myself EVERYTIME I see him play, "how good would he be/could he be, if he actually cared."
Now, he very well MAY care. But he doesn't show it.
when he came to us, I expected his impact to be if not dynamic, than simply huge.
It wasn't either. He was simply "here," and nothing more.
And for me, that's not enough.
The comparison 'could' be made to Buster. Isn't he just like Beltran? He's a quiet, laid back kind-a-guy, too.
But with Posey, I NEVER get the feeling that he's not going all out.
Quiet? Yes. Demonstrative leader like Hunter? No.
Give me 50 players like Hunter.
He puts up solid numbers, and it's obvious that he's a team player.
It's obvious he WANTS to win, and win BADLY!
Not so with Beltran.
What I SEE is a mechanical man; just going through the motions.
boly
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 11:28:28 GMT -5
Boagie -- As for you, Rog. Look up the RISP numbers for Pence and Beltran and really study them. Rog -- I have. I realize Carlos' numbers with RISP weren't good; Hunter's were much better (although, amazingly, Hunter hit just .175 with the bases empty. You knew I was aware of that when I posted that his hitting wasn't very timely, right? I guess it comes down to whether you believe that a hitter can control to a great extent when he hits. Carlos hit very well; he simply didn't hit well at the times that most benefited the Giants. If a hitter hits well, can he control when those hits come -- whether they will come in productive situations or not? If he could, he could simply take that approach all the time and become a better overall hitter. So, did Carlos hit well with the Giants? Of course he did. He hit better than he has hit over his career, which could conceivably wind up being a Hall of Fame career. Did he hit well in the clutch? Clearly he didn't. So his hits didn't benefit the Giants nearly as much as they would have had he played the entire season for them and developed a much larger sample. Basically it wasn't that Carlos didn't hit. It was that he had the misfortune of having most of his hits come at less opportune times. Hunter had the good fortune to have most of his hits come at more opportune times. I say fortune, because that isn't something a hitter has much control over. Boagie -- While you're looking at them ask yourself about the performance of the two teams and why they were better in 2012. I believe the numbers will show you the answer. I presume you are talking about August and September, after the trade deadline. In 2011 the Giants hit only .235 with a .635 OPS in August and .261/.756 in September. In 2012 the Giants hit .281 with a .760 OPS in August and .288/.780 in September. Hunter's teammates hit a lot better than Carlos' did. More than anything else, the Giants were better in 2012 than in 2011 because the hitters batting around Hunter performed better than the hitters surrounding Carlos. The 2012 Giants bunched their hits and walks better than the 2011 squad did. Did the numbers tell you something different? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#17246#ixzz2mQbFUeCt
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 11:30:39 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 11:34:04 GMT -5
Boly -- Now, he very well MAY care. But he doesn't show it. Rog -- Carlos is similar to Hank Aaron in that both players are/were gracefully, seemingly effortlessly, able to play well. Neither player shows/showed much emotion. They simply went out and played well. (Clearly Aaron played the better of the two.) My guess is that Joe DiMaggio was also similar in that regard, although I would need to defer to others on that one. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2mQjZ3HLH
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 11:37:50 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 12:37:22 GMT -5
One of many differences between Carlos Beltran and Hank Aaron is that for the most part, Hank was healthy, while Carlos has dealt with a very bad knee for much of his career.
IIRC when he was with the Giants, Carlos took two hours simply to prepare his knee to play. He wore one of those football-type knee braces, and I remember being quite worried when he made a sliding catch on a ball in shallow right field.
I believe the respective health of Beltran's and Aaron's legs can be illustrated by the stolen bases in their careers. Hank began stealing bases at the age of 26, doubling his highest previous total to 16 that season. In his nine seasons between age 26 and age 34, he stole between 15 and 31 bases each season. At age 34 he actually stole 28 bags.
In contradistinction, Carlos stole between 27 and 42 bases in each of his healthy seasons between age 22 and age 27 (and at a 90% rate, at that). He suffered a leg injury at age 28 in his first season with the Mets, dropping to 17 steals (with just four of them coming in the first half of the season when his injury was most bothersome).
Prior to age 26, Hank stole 20 bases -- total. Prior to age 28, Carlos stole 192. From ages 26 through 34, Hank stole 195 bases. Between age 28 and age 34, Carlos stole 101 bases. It would appear that from their prime years onward, Hank's legs were much healthier than Carlos'.
Carlos is one of the great base stealers in history. He has the 4th-highest success rate of any player in history with over 200 steals. But Carlos' ability to steal decreased significantly when he injured his leg with the Mets.
The point I'm making here is that Carlos' lack of health coupled with his fluidity makes it appear he cares less than he likely does. Apparently he has been popular with his teammates (including while he was with the Giants), and that is unlikely if your teammates think you're jaking it.
When Carlos was traded to the Giants, here is part of what was written at NewYork.Mets.MLB.com:
Pacing the Mets with another strong campaign in 2007, Beltran underwent surgery to clean out debris in both knees after the season -- an operation that would prove prophetic. Struggling to keep his knees fresh, Beltran mustered an impressive statistical season in '08, before missing significant time in '09 due to injury.
Beltran then underwent arthroscopic surgery on his right knee without the team's permission in January 2010, knocking him out for the entire first half of the season and prompting the Mets to shift him from center field to right the following spring. He did not fully recover until this April, when he ramped his production up to a level that made him the non-waiver Trade Deadline's hottest commodity.
Now 34, Beltran has reestablished himself as one of the game's elite offensive outfielders, albeit one who remains a significant injury risk. Batting .289 with 15 homers and an NL-leading 30 doubles and starting as the designated hitter in the All-Star Game earlier this month, Beltran has said often in recent weeks that he would like to continue his career with a contender after this season.
"For me personally, it's a sad day because I love Carlos," Mets starter R.A. Dickey said. "I think he's a great teammate. I think he's a fantastic guy. And he's a valuable piece to a puzzle."
What we learn here is that Carlos had a devastating history of knee injuries, knee injuries that ultimately kept him out of all but 18 games from June 21, 2009 through July 15, 2010. We also learn that R.A. Dickey, at least "love(d) Carlos" and considered him to be a "great teammate."
I believe Boagie made the comment that Carlos didn't want to be in San Francisco. If that were true, why would Carlos have waived his no-trade contract to come to the Giants?
With regard to Carlos, I think we are on the outside looking in -- and sometimes misconstruing what truly IS on the inside. Boagie has actually tried to put down Carlos' winning of the Roberto Clemente Award this season. To me, that shows he is simply seeing what he wants to see regarding Carlos.
If Carlos is what some here are calling him, why did Dickey call him a "great teammate" and say he "love(d)" the guy? There is a big difference between saying that and saying something more generic such as "Carlos was a great player for this team, and we'll miss him."
Former and current Giants Angel Pagan and Andres Torres love the guy, and those two guys have been team leaders and inspirational players.
Hey, Carlos is a human being, and I'm sure he has plenty of flaws. But I think he is far better than he is given credit for here.
The guy here who likely knows the most about Beltran is Mark, who lives in Queens IIRC. That's where Shea Stadium was located. Mark was there for Beltran's 6 1/2 seasons with the Mets. Mark thinks Boagie's mind is made up and asked why I bothered to argue with him.
As usual, Mark is probably right.
I understand what you are saying here Boly. I saw the same things you did. But I think the more we understand the whole Carlos Beltran story, the better we understand the situation.
By the way, Boagie is certainly right that Carlos didn't hit for the Giants with RISP. But I think that was mostly due to the small sample. With the Mets that season, he had hit .340/1.015 with runners in scoring position. 48 of his 66 RBI's with the Mets came with RISP.
Most homers are hit with the bases empty. Before joining the Giants that season, 11 of Carlos' 15 had come with runners on. That is the effect of a small sample, much as was the case with the distribution of his Giants numbers.
Carlos is considered to be one of the game's top clutch hitters, including some of the best postseason numbers ever. He hit quite well with the Giants. He simply had the misfortune of having his hits come at less than the best times.
Over his career, his OPS with runners on and RISP have been about 100 points higher than with no one on. His unfortunate hitting distribution with the Giants was primarily the result of bad luck timing in a small sample.
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 13:17:29 GMT -5
Boagie -- We can go around and around, my opinion of him won't change until he wears the Giants jersey again and contributes to some Giant wins when we're still in a pennant race. Rog -- To me, that's just foolish. If Carlos somehow were to successfully return to the Giants (wouldn't THAT be a strong free agent signing?), it wouldn't change him much as a man or as a player. According to Baseball-Reference, the most similar player to Carlos at age 25 was Matt Kemp. At each age between 26 and 30, it was Andre Dawson. At age 31 his comp was Shawn Green. Back to Dawson at age 32, Reggie Smith at age 33, Dawson again at ages 34 and 35, and now at age 36, Dave Winfield. Despite the severity of his knee problems, Carlos has been a heck of a player. And the signs indicate he's pretty good off the field and in the clubhouse, as well. One last thing: Boagie keeps saying that Carlos blackmailed or bribed Bruce Bochy to get his number 15, whereas the story Jon Miller tells (without prompting) is that Bochy gave up the number voluntarily and was very pleasantly surprised when he received a Rolex from Beltran after the season. Boagie, you seem to take even the positives from Beltran's life and career and try to turn them into negatives. Whether Carlos played well for the Giants or not depends on one's interpretation. But the Giants lost out on the 2011 postseason more because of the other 24 players than because of Carlos. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2mR0OKrV5
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 13:24:24 GMT -5
Boly -- The comparison 'could' be made to Buster. Isn't he just like Beltran? He's a quiet, laid back kind-a-guy, too. But with Posey, I NEVER get the feeling that he's not going all out. Rog -- Oh, I do. Buster doesn't run out balls to first base much better than Barry Bonds did. Buster catches, and he's not at all fast, so there are reasons. Buster often doesn't chase balls to the screen particulary hard either. Most of the time it doesn't matter, and usually even when it does, he has the arm to overcome it. One question we might want to ask ourselves is how often Carlos' perceived lack of hustle costs his team. I don't know the answer to that, but if it were often, I likely would know. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2mRAN4m5v
|
|
|
Post by dk on Dec 3, 2013 14:15:11 GMT -5
I find it funny that when I criticized Beltran for taking too long to join the Giants after the trade to the Giants, almost everyone on the board backed Beltran....and then it turned out Beltran had an injury...he should have joined the Giants at once and treated his injury and supported the team from the bench...his wife could have looked for living space without him...
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 14:57:20 GMT -5
Boagie -- Someday you guys will learn that and maybe understand the game beyond empty stats. Rog -- I dare say Mark and I already do -- and have for perhaps more years than you've been alive. But let's take this to its logical conclusion. No, baseball certainly isn't all about stats. But ultimately, it is. At the end of the season we don't judge baseball like we do figure skating or gymnastics. Judges don't decide who played the best or who played the hardest. We go totally by the stats. Each game is decided statistically (runs for and runs against). Each season is decided statistically ( wins and losses). Each postseason game is similarly decided, as is each postseason series. Statistics certainly aren't all there is to baseball. On the other hand, they identify a very important portion. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2mRCaO6Pi
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2013 16:10:21 GMT -5
Don -- I find it funny that when I criticized Beltran for taking too long to join the Giants after the trade to the Giants, almost everyone on the board backed Beltran....and then it turned out Beltran had an injury...he should have joined the Giants at once and treated his injury and supported the team from the bench...his wife could have looked for living space without him... Rog -- A couple of points here. First, I believe the collective bargaining agreement allows a player up to three days to report after a trade. Even though Beltan was on the road at the time of the trade, he reported to the Giants with only a one-day delay. Second, while I can't speak to his health at the time of the trade, I can say that it seems unlikely that the Giants would have traded for Carlos five days prior to the trade deadline if they believed he were injured to the extent that he couldn't play. I can also say that Carlos DID play for the Giants for a couple of weeks or so before leaving the lineup. The Giants delayed his trip to the disabled list, but after several days it became clear to them he wouldn't be able to return until after the 15 days the disabled list required or at least so close to it that they felt they would best help the club by putting him on the disabled list. It seems quite possible that Carlos flew home to set his affairs somewhat in order, then flew to join the Giants the next day. So, no, I guess I'd have to say it wasn't funny. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2115&page=1#ixzz2mRfiNDgk
|
|
|
Post by rxmeister on Dec 3, 2013 17:17:58 GMT -5
Looks like Carlos Beltran is going full circle, as he's close to going to the Royals for three years 48 million. Maybe he's starting completely over again, and the Mets will trade him to the Giants for Zack Wheeler Jr. when he's 60!
|
|