Does Beltran Deserve to Be Belted Here?

[dk]

Dec 3, 2013 16:10:21 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Don -- I find it funny that when I criticized Beltran for taking too long to join the Giants after the trade to the Giants, almost everyone on the board backed Beltran....and then it turned out Beltran had an injury...he should have joined the Giants at once and treated his injury and supported the team from the bench...his wife could have looked for living space without him...

Rog -- A couple of points here.

First, I believe the collective bargaining agreement allows a player up to three days to report after a trade. Even though Beltan was on the road at the time of the trade, he reported to the Giants with only a one-day delay.

Second, while I can't speak to his health at the time of the trade, I can say that it seems unlikely that the Giants would have traded for Carlos five days prior to the trade deadline if they believed he were injured to the extent that he couldn't play. I can also say that Carlos DID play for the Giants for a couple of weeks or so before leaving the lineup. The Giants delayed his trip to the disabled list, but after several days it became clear to them he wouldn't be able to return until after the 15 days the disabled list required or at least so close to it that they felt they would best help the club by putting him on the disabled list.

It seems quite possible that Carlos flew home to set his affairs somewhat in order, then flew to join the Giants the next day.

So, no, I guess I'd have to say it wasn't funny.


dk...most ball players report right away if their team needs them.....despite what the union rules are...but you never did understand the human side of the game...just the rules...

[sharksrog]

Carlos' going back to the Royals seems like poetic justice. He's in decline, but he's still been playing at a high level. What an outstanding player he once was. 3/$48 is probably rich, but that's the way the market is going these days.

[rxmeister]

How about the Yankees signing Ellsbury for 7 yrs 153 million? That's just crazy. The "one dumb owner" Boras usually seems to find is often named Steinbrenner.

[sharksrog]

Mark -- How about the Yankees signing Ellsbury for 7 yrs 153 million?

Rog -- Did I mention that the market for free agents is high? I'm not a huge fan of Jacoby, but when healthy he does contribute a lot of wins with his bat, his glove and his legs. The guy is outstanding on the bases.

That comment led me to open my new Bill James Handbook. It rates Jacoby at a plus 47 bases for last season. That's significant. Mike Trout is one heck of an all-around player. He was rated at plus 49 bases. Rajai Davis was rated +48, which is outstanding for how often he plays.

For all their speed, Angel Pagan as at a +1 and Gregor Blanco at a MINUS 10 for the Giants. Buster Posey was -13, and I haven't looked anyone else up yet.

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[allenreed]

Doesn't seem like the Yankees learned much from Sabathia and ARod. Then again, Ellsbury could bulk up a little and become a Yankee Stadium created power guy like Granderson once his legs give out. Gardner in left and Ellsbury in center. That's pretty good defense. Are they still going to have Ichiro?
Whither Robinson Cano?

[rxmeister]

If they lose Cano, Ellsbury is a less than adequate replacement. Speed doesn't age well, and he's lost his power. If they sign Cano, then they're just the old Yankees again, and trying to buy a pennant. However, I've heard they're about to sign Kelly Johnson, so I expect they're losing Cano to Seattle. Either way, Scott Boras is back on top.

[klaiggeb]

Rog -- Carlos is similar to Hank Aaron in that both players are/were gracefully, seemingly effortlessly, able to play well. Neither player shows/showed much emotion. They simply went out and played well. (Clearly Aaron played the better of the two.)

My guess is that Joe DiMaggio was also similar in that regard, although I would need to defer to others on that one.
---boly says--

I've only seen film clips of Joe, but I did see Hank.

Both showed more "caring" on the field than I ever, ever saw from Carlos.

Give me either, ya'all can keep Beltran.

boly

[allenreed]

I suspect Ellsbury we'll show a little bit more power in the Bronx, but I agree that he won't make up in the power dept for Cano. Kelly Johnson has some power though, and McCann will certainly give them more thump out of the catcher position than they got this year.
The Ellsbury signing is ridiculous. What in the world is he going to do with $153 million, buy Belize? Hire someone to build a working website for Obamacare?
Seattle needs to spend that much on Cano like they need a hole in the head. Cano isn't going to put them over the top in that division, and he's not going to sell enough tickets to justify his salary.
The Yankees must be pretty certain they're not going to have to pay ARod this year, or maybe ever.

[sfgdood]

boly...just curious what about Carlos shows a lack of caring? Surely his huge Postseason numbers couldn't have been all accomplished through gross indifference.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Allen -- Are they still going to have Ichiro?

Rog -- Perhaps the Giants could profit in trade from the Yankees' surfeit of outfielders. Would the Yankees benefit from another reliever and/or a switch-hitting backup catcher who might be able to become at least a platoon player?

[sharksrog]

Boly -- Give me either, ya'all can keep Beltran.

Rog -- If Beltran had been a Giant last season, they might have made the playoffs -- although that might be a stretch. Obviously whether he ultimately makes the Hall of Fame or not (the latter of which would be my guess, at least until the Veterans' Committee gets involved, Carlos cleary is not in the class of Aaron or DiMaggio.

I believe the Veterans' Committee gets involved after 25 years. I personally think the Hall would be much stronger if there were no Veterans' Committee.

[allenreed]

Granderson's a FA. So we have Ellsbury, Ichiro, Gardner, Vernon Wells, and Soriano. Maybe not quite the surfeit it appears.

[klaiggeb]

Boly...just curious what about Carlos shows a lack of caring? Surely his huge Postseason numbers couldn't have been all accomplished through gross indifference.

~Dood

---boly says----

Randy: Note in my post I never questioned his numbers. They are good.

For me it's all about what I SEE when he plays.

I SEE tremendous talent, but I don't SEE emotion, nor hustle from him.

I SEE a guy just going about his job.

I don't SEE a guy concerned about picking up a teammate.

I SEE a guy concerned about his own numbers and little else.

there have been a lot of players who don't show emotion on the field. Rog mentioned Dimaggio and Aaron.

But I SAW emotion from both. I SAW hustle from both.

I don't see that from Carlos.

Not a very sophisticated observation, I know, but you asked.

Now not everyone can be what Pence is, and that's okay.

Mays wasn't that demonstrative, and neither was Mantle nor Snider, nor JT Snow

But ALL of those guys gave you 100% that you could SEE each and every day

boly.

[sharksrog]

Boly -- I SEE a guy concerned about his own numbers and little else.

Rog -- I'm wondering what evidence you have seen of that from Carlos Beltran, Boly. I know he played for the Mets right after signing his contract with them when he likely shouldn't have been playing.

His numbers did suffer quite a bit, too.

One thing I'd like to ask you and others about: At what point should a player sit out because he's hurting his team more than helping by playing?

I've had that question for quite a while, but it was the mention of Beltran that made me think of it just now. Beltran has been criticized for sitting out game 3 I think it was of the NLCS, but Allen Craig hit a home run in replacing him.

I know the players and fans all respect a "gamer," but at what point should a player sit out to HELP his team. Obviously if re-injury is a significant possibility, it would be best to sit out. But how badly must a player be injured before he's hurting his team by playing?

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[klaiggeb]

Boly -- I SEE a guy concerned about his own numbers and little else.

Rog -- I'm wondering what evidence you have seen of that from Carlos Beltran, Boly. I know he played for the Mets right after signing his contract with them when he likely shouldn't have been playing.

---boly says--

Rog, in all of my posts on Beltran, I was quite clear. In fact, I put the word SEE, in captials.

I've admitted he has good numbers. that's a fact.

What I DON'T see, with my eyes, is:

Hustle
Effort
Giving a rat's patootie about anything other than his numbers.

Nothing scientific about it.

No evidence to share.

I just don't like what my eyes see.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly, if you don't quote a sports writer (who hasn't followed baseball as long as you) or you don't reference numbers it will never compute with Rog.

I've even posted Beltran's RISP numbers with the Giants up against Pence's and Rog still won't bend.

In Rog's mind the media is the utmost expert on everything. Rog apparently puts the media at a higher intellectual level than you or I, so much so that their opinion is as good as fact.

Liberals use this trick in political arguments all the time. It holds no water unless you are able to give specific media references to your opinions.

[rxmeister]

I haven't seen Beltran's RISP numbers as a Giant, Boagie, but overall Carlos Beltran had a far better year with RISP in 2011 than Pence did in 2013. (.310 to .293 and .400 OBP to .351) Anyway, even if Carlos did struggle as a Giant in those situations I'm not even sure what your point is. Does his supposed struggling for two months diminish him as an overall great player? Does it diminish him as a man? Reading your posts I get the impression that it does, which is beyond ridiculous. And even you admit he had a strong September "when the Giants were out of it," so what exactly are you trying to say? That Carlos Beltran shouldn't be considered a great player because he had a bad couple of weeks before going on the DL with an injury? That he shouldn't be considered a good person because he gave Bruce Bochy a Rolex for his uniform number and had the audacity to get hurt? And then you bring politics into your Beltran discussion like that has any possible place here. (Especially when I'm pretty sure Rog has said he's a conservative but doesn't wish to discuss politics in this forum) And then you have the nerve to wonder why Rog doesn't change his mind when confronted with your points? When are you actually going to make one?

[Islandboagie]

Beltran throughout his career has been a very good player. That's not what Rog's question was though. He wanted to know why me and other fans saw Pence's partial season with the Giants in 2012 was better than Beltran's in 2011. Neither were perfect, but Pence did hit when we needed him to. Beltran hit when we were already out of it, and usually without runners in scoring position. Pence also Didnt spend a large chunk on the DL. If you consider the evidence that I posted the only logical assumption is that Pence was much more valuable than Beltran. But since you failed to read the evidence I posted, how can you have an opinion about what I said?

As far as Beltran as a human being, I posted the things that rubbed me the wrong way. Asking Bochy for his number, taking himself out of games, and finally spouting off in the media about Sabean not calling him during the off season. Those combined leave a bad taste in my mouth about Beltran. Again, this is just my opinion, take it or leave it. I realize the liberal tactic is to never give in until everyone sees it their way, but I'm not going to play that game.

[allenreed]

I have virtually no opinion on Beltran, good or bad. I just don't think he liked it here, and I don't think it had anything to do with the organization.
I think people will remember Pence's 2012 more fondly because it ended in a World Championship, while Beltran's time ended in bitter disappointment.
As far as him "spouting off" about Sabean, wasn't that after someone asked him why he didn't consider re-signing with the Giants? If they never contacted him, wouldn't that make it substantially more difficult?

[sharksrog]

Boly -- I just don't like what my eyes see.

Rog -- It won't happen, because the Giants would lose their first-round draft pick (#13 overall?), but if the Giants were to sign Beltran, they likely would be rated up with every National League team except the Dodgers and conceivably the Cardinals and/or Nationals. Heck, even without a true starting left fielder, they will likely be ranked nearly that high.

Beltran has been a 3-win player over the past five seasons, although that was limited somewhat by his missing essentially a full year due to his very serious knee injury. He likely wouldn't make a huge difference, but probably in line with Pence, Lincecum and Hudson.

So what would his effect be on team chemistry? We don't know for sure, but the small number of indications we have are positive. Beltran seems to be considered a good teammate. Or perhaps the number of comments are low because he isn't.

And then again, we just don't know the impact of good or bad chemistry. Did the Giants have great chemistry when they won the World Series and then lost it last season?

If a leader like Hunter Pence makes a significant difference with that leadership, why didn't the Giants flourish last season when they had him for the entire season rather than just a third of it?

The Giants have seemingly been susciptible to a hangover season after winning it all. And they've also been susciptible to injuries.

I don't know for sure WHAT Carlos' impact would be for the Giants this season. I see the same things you do, but I also see a man who seems to be considered a good teammate and a man of character. Perhaps a quiet leader.

Maybe a Matt Cain-type quiet leader. Maybe not a leader at all. Perhaps a disrupter, not builder, of team chemistry.

But let's look at the criticism of Beltran here:

More than anything else, we were hurt by his perceived lack of performance with the Giants. That is accentuated by his costing Zack Wheeler, arguably the top prospect in the organization at the time. Whether he played poorly for the Giants is a matter of debate. His hitting wasn't timely, which could be viewed as a failure. Timeliness not included, his hitting was outstanding.

We also see Beltran as a guy who protects his numbers by not playing. We hate that he missed two weeks with the Giants. Especially since they pretty much fell out of it during that time (and hadn't been faring all that well with Beltran BEFORE the injury).

Certainly Beltran has missed a lot of time. But with the exception of missing a ton of time when he suffered his most recent knee injury, his time on the disabled list with the Giants is about the only time he had to be placed there.

When he came to the Giants, I believe he led the Mets in games played. And let's not forget that his knee allegedly took two hours before the game to prepare. Even with his Giants time on the disabled list, he played 142 games, which is impressive for a player coming off a knee injury that required surgery and kept him out of the lineup for pretty much a full year.

Heck, he risked an unauthorized operation to be able to come back at all. Does that sound like a guy who wants to take off to protect his stats?

By the way, Beltran has played 151 and 145 games the past two seasons. Even in 2005 when he suffered badly from a knee injury that cut his stolen bases more than in half (with just four coming before the All-Star game, during the time Beltran was still recovering -- but playing), he played in 151 games.

Then there's this thing about his receiving the Roberto Clemente Award for off-field service -- yet supposedly being selfish in doing so. What a crock.

So is Carlos truly a negative influence? I truly don't know. I see what Boly does, but it seems to me the FACTS we know point positively for Carlos. It seems Boagie got a bug up his bottom when Carlos wasn't the savior Boagie expected in 2011. Frankly, it doesn't seem possible for Carlos to do ANYTHING that Boagie won't turn into a negative.

I would like to see Mark weigh in more heavily on this subject, since he has seen more of Carlos than any of us, but the weighing in he has done indicates Boagie has lost all objectivity when it comes to Beltran.

Perhaps Mark, more so than any of us here, can help us solve the mystery of Beltran.


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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- In Rog's mind the media is the utmost expert on everything. Rog apparently puts the media at a higher intellectual level than you or I, so much so that their opinion is as good as fact.

Rog -- Ridiculous, Boagie. The only point I have ever made is that writers and announcers have access we don't have.

Please speak the truth, Boagie, instead of simply making wild accusations. Oh, and dont' forget that when a writer writes something, at least it isn't stats!


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[sharksrog]

Mark -- so what exactly are you trying to say? That Carlos Beltran shouldn't be considered a great player because he had a bad couple of weeks before going on the DL with an injury?

Rog -- Beltran was already in a slump when the Giants acquired him. His numbers with RISP were actually very good on the season; they just didn't happen to be good in his time with the Giants. Since clutch hitting isn't a repeatable skill, this appears more random than anything.

By the way, Beltran's own 2011 season shows how unrepeatable clutch hitting is. With the Mets, his RISP numbers (.345/1.015) were among the best in the league. With the Giants they were, as Boagie correctly points out and I myself have acknowledged and quantified, very poor. Even with his poor Giants numbers, he wound up hitting .315/.935 with RISP on over the full course of the 2011 season.

Beltran is considered one of the best postseason performers in baseball history, for crying out loud. With regard to Carlos' supposed spitting the bit with the Giants, perhaps it might be more meaningful to look at the much larger sample of his career -- in-season and postseason.

His career regular-season numbers with RISP are .306/.921. Those are even better than his overall career numbers. And in the postseason he has hit .333/1.128.

How about this thing that he didn't want to play for the Giants? If that is true, why did he waive his no-trade contract to do so?

I agree that Beltran looks like he doesn't play the game hard. I suspect a little of his aggressiveness has been stolen by his very serious knee injuries. But we're almost always looking for players who are aggressive on the bases, aren't we?

Beltan has shown his aggressiveness on the bases by stealing over 300 bases -- and being the most efficient in doing so. Beltran has stolen 308 bases while being caught only 48 times. Willie Mays was an excellent stolen base man and arguably the best base runner ever. But Willie was caught 103 times while stealing 338 bases Willie stole 10% more bases than Carlos -- but was thrown out 115% more often.

Beltran was aggressive enough in center field to win three Gold Gloves. On the bases, he is rated at a+300 bases, which also show aggressiveness. Back before he hurt his knee, Beltran was about as good a combination of speed and defense as anyone in the game.

Boagie even said Barry Zito, rather than Beltran, should have won the Roberto Clemente Award, which "is given to the player combining good play and strong work in the community. Barry might have fallen a little short in the "good play" category.

Barry did, however, win both the Lou Gehrig and Hutch Awards a year ago, so Boagie is clearly on the right track.

Incidentally, the first winner of the Roberto Clemente Award? That would be a man named Mays. As for Boagie's unsubstantiated claim that Zito would have had a better chance to win the Award if he had a different color skin, the award has been pretty well split because whites, blacks and Latins.

Incidentally, the 2010 winner of the Hutch Award was Tim Hudson.


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