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Post by allenreed on Dec 1, 2013 20:10:42 GMT -5
Also, far, far too many turnovers. Officiating is abominable.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 2, 2013 21:17:39 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 4, 2013 13:09:27 GMT -5
As I said before, it's a journey. When this team is at full strength, it can play with anyone. When it has key pieces missing, as it has much of the early season, it can still play with most teams, but not necessarily the elite ones.
The bench may not be as strong as it was last year but it doesn't need to be. It just needs to hang close enough to give the starters a blow. Speights has been disappointing at times...he makes more boneheaded mistakes than you would expect from a veteran, but he does have some outside game and plays tough defense. I'm sort of with you on Nedevic. He had the nickname of the Serbian Derrick Rose but his quickness isn't anywhere near what I expected. And Bazemore doesn't seem to have improved much either, making this recent stretch more difficult with both Iguodala and Douglas out. The bench is naturally going to look worse when there is no natural ballhandler playing with them.
Bottom line is, the team has had a road-heavy, elites-heavy schedule thus far with many key players sitting out. They will clean up when their schedule evens out some. The recent comebacks in Dallas and last night at home shows the team has heart as well as talent. I expect no less than 50 wins.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 4, 2013 13:17:39 GMT -5
Nice comeback win last night, but it shouldn't have been necessary. They seemed to have lost interest in playing defense. Alot of 30 point quarters for the opposition. They miss Iguodala, no doubt about that. But their bench has just been atrocious. They need to get better. The only guy really giving them anything off the bench is O'Neal. I'd tell Speights he needs to get his head out of his rear or head on down the road. Bottom line is they need to play smarter. Stop with the silly reach fouls and focus at the line. They lost the OKC game because they couldn't shoot free throws.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 4, 2013 13:26:17 GMT -5
No argument with any of what you posted. All I will add is that when fully healthy the bench is not atrocious. With Douglas to run the offense and Barnes dropped down to 2nd team where he was when Andre was healthy, it makes a huge difference. The return of Iggy will also do wonders for those 30 point quarters...most have come after Andre's injury.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 4, 2013 13:38:20 GMT -5
Yes. It's early yet and some guys are still finding their way. But there's no excuse for the missed free throws. The first half last night was just atrocious. Barnes coming off the bench will help. I'm starting to look for Douglas on milk cartons. When's he coming back? I still wish they could have kept Jack.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 4, 2013 13:44:43 GMT -5
I miss Jack also but he had his bonehead moves also...the guy holds on to the ball too much sometimes. Last night on the pregame they said Douglas will join the team on the upcoming 3 game trip and will likely be re-activated then. Iguodala might make the trip also but that is less certain.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 4, 2013 13:47:39 GMT -5
I don't want Iguodala to rush it. Hamstrings are tricky. I think Jack would be a steadier hand on the rudder. Certainly more than anyone they have now. They make turnovers in bunches at times.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 4, 2013 15:34:21 GMT -5
Allen -- Officiating is abominable.
Rog -- Given that the officiating is so "abominable" in pretty much all the sports (with the possible exception of curling), might one think that officiating is a difficult job?
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Post by allenreed on Dec 4, 2013 15:44:12 GMT -5
All I ask is that it be consistent. What's called at one end of the floor should be called at the other end.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 4, 2013 19:17:39 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on Dec 15, 2013 22:33:23 GMT -5
Don't believe the hype. Unless this team pulls it's head out of its rear, they'll be very lucky to make the playoffs. Just stupid, stupid, lazy, lazy basketball.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2013 1:28:26 GMT -5
it's not the hype I'm buying. What we saw in the playoffs and early this season before Iggy got hurt was no fluke. This team has the goods when healthy. When a key player is down any team can get in a funk. Thing is, even without Andre they aren't getting run off the court. Just barely losing, and to some good teams. No reason to panic just yet.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 16, 2013 11:31:36 GMT -5
It's the same old crap every game. Get behind early, play without focus, don't play defense, commit alot of silly fouls and turnovers, and then try to turn it on late. Missing one player isn't responsioble for all that. This is where they miss Jack and Landry. They need a steady veteran hand to right the ship. Mo Speights and Tony Douglas aren't going to cut it in that dept. Speaking of Igoudala, maybe they should make him a coach. He seems to enjoy wearing a suit on the bench more than a uniform. I agree that it isn't time to panic yet, but they should definitely be taking a serious look at themselves.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 16, 2013 12:48:28 GMT -5
I'm not going to disagree that the team should be playing with better focus even without Iggy and O'Neil but those guys are not only good (and in the case Iguodala, great) players, but they also are leaders on the court to boot. As you mention, Andre's like having another coach out there. They loss of Jack and Landry is only so keenly felt right now because of the injuries. Douglas might not be great but when both he AND Iguodala are out, there's basically nobody to back up Curry and that's going to hurt, no matter how you slice it. Speights is getting a little better. Had a fine night Friday against Houston. Remember the Warriors also are without Ezeli who is a beast on the boards and defensively. This stretch will serve them well in the long run and when they get healthy, the team will flourish, I do believe.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 16, 2013 15:04:55 GMT -5
What they need is a more consistent effort. If I'm ownwership, I might put Jackson on notice that I'm displeased with the effort he's getting out of the troops, and don't kid yourself into thinking this is a lifetime position. It seems like these guys may have spent a little too much time reading their press clippings.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 17, 2013 7:53:25 GMT -5
Allen -- If I'm ownwership, I might put Jackson on notice that I'm displeased with the effort he's getting out of the troops Rog -- If I were Warriors ownership, I would be thankful I had Jackson, who seems like one heck of a motivator. I might discuss my perception that the Warriors are better than they're showing, but I certainly wouldn't put him "on notice." Speaking of notice, you had noticed the Warriors have had a lot of injuries, right? Incidentally, I was wrong about something. I pointed out the obvious, that the Warriors could ill afford injuries to Curry or Bogut, but I missed how important Igoudala seems to be. The two things that seem most to have bothered the team's performance are injuries and a surprising lack of depth. The Warriors seem to be essentially a six-man team with a gritty seventh man in Draymond Green. (It's not easy being green.) I have been extremely disappointed with Maurice Speights and was disappointed to see he has a three-year contract with them (albeit not a big one). Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2072&page=2#17781#ixzz2njga2Vmh
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Post by allenreed on Dec 17, 2013 10:17:08 GMT -5
I might say that if I looked solely at last season. This season, these guys don't look motivated. They look unfocused, lazy, and careless. I'm not saying I would tell Jackson not to send out his laundry, but I would let him know in no uncertain teams that better results should be immediately forthcoming. They have had significant injuries, but that doesn't excuse the inordinate amount of sloppy turnovers, their consistently playing shoddy defense with alot of silly reach fouls, way too many shots missed at point blank range, horrible free throwing, and their lack of intensity early in games. Injuries aren't an excuse for any of this. In fact, knowing that they're shorthanded should focus them more. The Warriors aren't being out talented, the other team just plays fundamentally better basketball. Iguodala's important, and he doesn't seem to be in any particular hurry to get back. O'Neal going down is really going to hurt too.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 17, 2013 11:08:08 GMT -5
What do you guys think about David Lee? As a Knicks fan, I'm interested. The guy always puts up solid numbers, but the Knicks soured on him eventually because his defense was so poor. I see the same thing happening with the Warriors. Casual observers tend to think he's a good player, but the advanced metrics guys seem to think he's pretty bad.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 17, 2013 12:26:11 GMT -5
The guy's a double double machine and when the Warriors are at full health, they more than make up for Lee's defensive defficiencies. I think with a lesser team, he could put up good or even great personal numbers but fall very short of team goals. He's a very good team guy and hard worker. This past offseason he worked his ass off and is in the best shape of his career.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 17, 2013 13:55:34 GMT -5
Lee might be what one would call a very uneven player. His strengths are rather obvious. His weaknesses are pretty clear as well.
I don't think the issue is his performance so much as his big hit on the salary cap. There is some thinking that the Warriors won't be able to afford to re-sign both Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes if they retain the big contract of Lee.
I personally don't see the Warriors as having much to replace Lee. They could go with their other five top players, but that leaves them as an undersized team. Draymond Green would be the logical replacement, but Draymond is really a 3/4 who has excellent basketball savvy, not a lot of weaknesses -- but IMO also not enough strengths to be a solid starter at this stage of his career.
The idea to get Lee off the books is likely a good one. The Warriors need to get at least a decent replacement in return. They're pretty solid at the 2 and (especially) 3 positions, but they lack depth at the other three spots.
As an aside, it is quite possible the Warriors' top two power forwards in their SF history are both surnamed Lee. About the only other guy I can think of who played much time for the team is Larry Smith.
The Warriors had both Jerry Lucas and Rudy LaRusso, but they didn't have either for very long.
A very intriguing player who briefly played power forward for the Warriors was Nate Thurmond, who sometimes played alongside Wilt Chamberlain. Even as a pure center, Nate was agile enough to guard Oscar Robertson at the end of games.
Nate is actually listed by Basketball Reference as a power forward in both the 1963-64 and 1964-65 seasons.
We talk a lot about chemistry here, and the 1974-75 Warriors might be the best sports example I can think of. One might note that the Warriors had actually traded Nate.
But I can't imagine Nate being a negative influence on chemistry, and Clifford Ray actually did a nice job of replacing him. The Warriors also added two top rookies in Keith Wilkes and Phil Smith. They added sparkplug guard Charles Dudley and gave increased roles to Charles Johnson and the late Derrek Dickey.
It is also possible the biggest chemistry change the Warriors made that season was in not re-signing Cazzie Russell, giving Rick Barry more of a free reign at small forward and opening up playing time for Wilkes and Dickey.
The Warriors also signed former All-Star and All-League defender Bill Bridges near the end of the season to provide them needed rebounding and toughness.
All these years I have wondered about the effect of the Warriors' team chemistry that season. Players such as Barry have often cited it. As I look at it now, the team was actually quite different as well. As is usually the case when a team fares well, the Warriors got career or near-career years from several players.
I don't think the importance of adding rookies Wilkes and Smith should be underestimated. I'd have to think hard to recall a season in which the Warriors added two such impactful rookies. Perhaps Barry and Fred Hetzel.
Their biggest infusion of talent I can remember came before the 1980-81 season when they added Bernard King, World B. Free, Larry Smith and Joe Barry Carroll. They did, however, lose Robert Parrish.
This seems almost unbelievable, but that off-season the Warriors actually had the potential to also add Kevin McHale and Jeff Ruland while keeping Parrsh instead of adding Carroll.
In King, Parish and McHale, we're talking Hall of Famers. In Free and Ruland, All-Stars. And in Smith, a member of the All-Rookie team and arguably the toughest power forward in Warriors history.
Speaking of another off-season in which the Warriors added two solid rookies, in 1976 they added Parish and Sonny Parker.
Going back to Hetzel, besides being Warriors, what do he and present Warrior Stephen Curry have in common?
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Post by allenreed on Dec 17, 2013 16:17:43 GMT -5
Wow Rog. You were asked about David Lee, and you gave an opinion about half the W's all time roster. At least you don't rattle on. As for myself, I like David. He works pretty hard and is pretty fundamentally sound. He did improve his conditioning this year, and seems to indeed be quite a bit quicker. He also tried to go in the playoffs last year with a pretty severe injury.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 19, 2013 0:46:51 GMT -5
I like David Lee too, and the power forward position has been the weakest of all the positions during the Warriors' tenure in the Bay Area, but from what I'm reading, they won't be able to affor to keep him, Klay Thompson and Harrison Barnes.
Lee is easily the oldest of the group and at present easily the most expensive. All four major sports are becoming more and more about the value of players per dollar. David will turn 31 about the time the regular season ends, so if the Warriors could get value in return, he might well be the one to trade.
I might go with Thompson or perhaps Barnes as the trade bait, since the two and three are the easiest positions to fill, but they're both younger and cheaper. I think Bob Myers has done a fabulous job, so I think there's a good chance it will work out regardless of the direction they choose.
As for going back over the Warriors, I don't know as much about them as about the Giants -- but I do know a fair amount. Back in the 80's and early nineties, I saw every home game for over a decade. I have many fond memories going back to the Warriors' very first year in the Bay Area. Prior to that, I was a Fort Wayne/Detroit Pistons fan and was probably one of just a few thousand who are still alive and who listened the night George Yardley become the first NBA player to score 2000 points.
My all-time SF/Golden State Warriors team would probably be:
C -- Chamberlain Thurmond
PF -- David Lee Clyde Lee
SF -- Barry King Mullin
SG -- Richmond Sprewell
PG -- Curry Hardaway Guy Rodgers
Other players of note would include Purvis Short, Jeff Mullins, Phil Smith, Larry Smith, Jamaal Wilkes and Gus Williams and Jerry Lucas, although the last two made their marks primarily with other teams.
My favorite Warriors that nobody ever heard of were Bob Warlick, Peter Thibeaux and Bubba Wilson. Lorenzo Romar would be there too, except that people have now heard of him as the coach of the University of Washington.
As you can see, once I start talking about the Warriors, many memories come back. There was a time when I loved the Warriors best live, the 49ers best on TV and the Giants best on the radio. And that was long before the Sharks and my having a chance to learn hockey.
One of the favorite passtimes of my life was refereeing basketball. I reffed about 4000 games before moving to the coast caused me to end my career. At times it was hard, challenging work, but I loved it. Missed a lot of calls, I'm afraid, but worked very, very hard not to.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Dec 19, 2013 1:09:29 GMT -5
I can't believe you mention Phil Smith, Jeff Mullins and Lo Romar but no mention of Sleepy Floyd or World B Free.
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Dec 19, 2013 8:24:38 GMT -5
Purvis Short, with the high arcing jumper. Hadn't thought about him in awhile. Didn't Phil Smith already die? I used to work as a ticket taker at the Warrior games, and I remember Gus Williams would come out very early and shoot around. He'd hit like 15-20 in a row from 20+ feet. Never even hit the rim. Unbelievable.
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 19, 2013 8:56:47 GMT -5
Randy -- I can't believe you mention Phil Smith, Jeff Mullins and Lo Romar but no mention of Sleepy Floyd or World B Free. Rog -- The guy I realized last night that I missed was Monta Ellis. As for Romar, he was an addendum to my list of favorite players nobody has heard of. Not sure why you even brought him up. Regarding Smith and Mullins, you probably didn't see them play much. Smith was a two-time All-Star who was also a 2nd-team all defensive team. His 2nd through 5th seasons he averaged right at 20 point, four assists and four rebounds. If not for his horrible Achilles Tendon tear, he might have been right up there with Mitch Richmond, whose numbers in his three years with the Warriors were only slightly better than the numbers I mentioned by Smith. That Smith was a competitor is illustrated by his Achilles injury. His injury occurred near the Warriors' hoop, and he was left behind on the floor as the ball went to the other end. As an aside, it was mentioned here well before his terminal cancer was announced publicly that he was "very sick." As for Mullins, he wasn't as good as the much later Mullin (no "s"), but while Rick Barry was in the ABA, he was the Warriors' scoring leader, posting numbers quite similar to the ones mentioned above for Richmond. Mullins was a three-time All-Star. World B. Free was a fine long-range shooter who in his pre-Warrior days was already called by Warriors announcer Bill King "The Bombadier." A prolific scorer and one-time All-Star, Free was a poor defender, perhaps not the greatest of team players, and played only a little over two years for the Warriors. His time with the Warriors was overshadowed by Hall of Famer Bernard King. Arguably the coolest name in NBA history. I did mention Free in this thread, but not when naming the All-Time Warriors. He wasn't far behind. For one playoff quarter (an unbelievable 29 points that caused then-Warriors announcer Greg Papa to say "Sleepy Floyd is Superman!"), Floyd was the greatest player in Warriors playoff history. Pretty much a one-two (although a very good one), Sleepy never averaged as many as 20 points for the Warriors, although twice he was above 9 assists. Floyd was an All-Star one season. I considered mentioning Sleepy, but aside from that amazing playoff quarter, he wasn't as good as the other shooting guards I did bring up. Floyd and Free were excellent Warriors, but in my mind not quite as good as the guys I mentioned as the Warriors' top shooting guards. Let's call them honorable mentions to the honorable mentions. With the exception of Ellis (and I don't mean Jumpin' Joe), you brought up the two closest shooting guards to those mentioned. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=2072&page=2#17887#ixzz2nvVZVgKK
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Post by allenreed on Dec 19, 2013 11:12:53 GMT -5
Jeff Mullins. Chest high dribble. Good shooter. What college did Jeff attend? Phil Smith?
World B. Free's real first name? He was on a recent special about Julius Erving. I'm guessing Harvard didn't recruit him.
Bernard King was probably my all time favorite Warrior. I went to a game where he scored 50 against the Sixers. That same year I went to see them play the Celtics just to watch Larry Bird. Bird was shut out in that game for the only time in his career.
Sleepy Floyd's real first name? College? Famous teammate in college?
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Post by sharksrog on Dec 19, 2013 16:59:20 GMT -5
I believe Mullins attended Duke, although that could certainly be wrong. The first time I saw him was against UCLA, I think in the NCAA Finals or at least the Final 4. Phil Smith was from San Francisco and attended USF.
World B. Free was originally Lloyd and attended Division 3 Guilford College.
I about died when the Warriors traded Bernard for Michael Ray Richardson. I thought Michael Ray might become the first player with a quintuple double (points, assists, rebounds, steals and turnovers), but I just flat-out loved Bernard, who was my favorite player just like he was yours.
I was at the game in which Michael Jordan broke his foot.
I don't know the answers to any of the Sleepy Floyd questions.
I hope we're not straying too far from baseball. At least we're talking sports and a Bay Area team.
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Post by allenreed on Dec 19, 2013 18:55:05 GMT -5
Duke is correct. He was later the head coach of some team back there. UNCC? USF is correct on Phil Smith. Who were the three players that boosted USF to national prominence in the 70s, and later drew them some NCAA sanctions?
Extra credit on the Guilford. I knew it was a small college when I was typing the previous post. But couldn't remember it at the time, so I didn't ask.What college did Free's Sixer teammate Daryl Dawkins attend?
Richardson had big time drug issues, no? What other Warrior #1 draft choice had his career (and I think his life) ruined by drugs? Hint: He attended NC State and was dumber than a box of rocks.
Bernard had a younger brother who was hyped as being better than Bernard, but never really panned out. First name?
Sleepy Floyd's real name was Eric, and he attended Georgetown, where he was teammates with Patrick Ewing.
We've discussed non-baseball topics here before, and the world has yet to end.
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Post by rxmeister on Dec 20, 2013 9:16:15 GMT -5
How the hell did the Warriors lose at home to the Spurs last night when they literally conceded you the game by resting their three best players? The NBA fined them the last time they did that, but how can you fine them when they won?
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