Better or Worse (infielders)

[donk]

seems to me that you are the one that keeps bringing this up.....

[sfgdood]

Boag - With our infielders there's a fairly high ceiling. The Brandons are both young and still learning how to hit at the major league level. Pablo is still fat, and Scutaro has undoubtably hit the ceiling, which only leaves him room to decline.

Brandon Belt COULD be a 25-30 hr guy, but he could also sputter out and be another Damon Minor, Lance Niekro, John Bowker, J.R. Phillips. I root for Belt, but the extended list of failed young first baseman will always make me doubt how long Belt will be a major league first baseman.

Dood - I can't really see Belt becoming a rebirth of those guys you mention. First off he just has FAR more natural ability, both offensively and defensively, than any of them. He may or may not develop into a power hitting first baseman but this is a guy who can spray the gaps as well as anyone once he gets settled (and it's my belief that you will see that more consistently starting this year). I realize I said that last Spring also, but after going through what he did last year, I see that as a huge learning time for him that bore fruit in the postseason and will continue to do so this year. Not to mention, he has both Will Clark and JT Snow around to help him out when he needs a hand. Both of those guys also give resounding endorsements of this kid...let us remember he is ONLY 24 years old.

I don't see Crawford's ceiling (at least offensively) as being any higher than average for a SS. He'll continue to be a top fielder at his position, but offensively I don't have high hopes for him. He'll continue to hit 8th for the foreseeable future, IMO.

I'm getting sick of people calling Pablo fat. Look, he's never going to be a skinny guy. But as long as he's in good enough shape to field his position, I have no problem at all with him remaining on the heavy side. Sure, there's a long term risk with him remaining heavy but it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on his bat. Guys like Prince Fielder are even chubbier than Pablo and they still produce. And I get the feeling that a skinny and firm Pablo would not be as loose and jolly in the clubhouse. Keep him happy, laughing and just trim enough to play his position.

Nobody expects Scutaro to go off like he did for us last year...but at the same time, I think it's a good bet that he'll continue to be tough to strike out and will be very good in clutch situations. He'll continue to move runners, hit and run, and play a solid 2nd base. I don't expect 2013 to be the year he sputters badly.

~Dood

[allenreed]

You can be sick of it all you want. He's still fat, and considering he makes his living with his body, and has access to top nptch fitness and nutrition experts, there's no reason for him to be.

[sfgdood]

Allen - You can be sick of it all you want. He's still fat, and considering he makes his living with his body, and has access to top nptch fitness and nutrition experts, there's no reason for him to be.

Dood - I beg to differ. He makes his living with his hands and eyes. As far as I know, those havent been negatively effected by his nutritional or conditioning habits. If he made his living with his legs like an outfielder or speedy tablesetter does, then your point would be a better one.

~Dood

[allenreed]

I'll differ right back at ya. Anytime he's thrown out by a step, anytime he misses a ball by a few inches, or has it hit off the tip of his glove, any time he's just a tiny bit late on a fastball, any time he has to hold up at second on a ball he should of went first to third on, or hold up at third on a ball he should have scored on, you can blame it on his weight.
If this was beer league softball, and Pablo worked full time at another job, then he might have an excuse. He's a professional athlete, with nothing else to do but get himself in optimum physical condition. Why not grow up and do it?
Also, over the last two seasons Pablo has missed 97 games.

[sharksrog]

Allen -- Also, over the last two seasons Pablo has missed 97 games.

Rog -- Do you think Pablo's weight was what broke both his hamate bones? You do make a good point about Pablo's conditioning, but it's similar to criticizing his plate selection. He's doing pretty well despite those flaws.

One difference in the weight and the plate selection issues is that it is hard to imaging Pablo's not benefitting from better conditioning, while using more discretion at the plate might take away some of the advantages of his aggressiveness.

The bottom line though is that Pablo is a darn good player, perhaps their second-best position player. Whether he will have longevity, we'll have to see. But right now he's pretty darn good -- and he has no more hamate bones to break.

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[sfgdood]

Allen - I'll differ right back at ya. Anytime he's thrown out by a step, anytime he misses a ball by a few inches, or has it hit off the tip of his glove, any time he's just a tiny bit late on a fastball, any time he has to hold up at second on a ball he should of went first to third on, or hold up at third on a ball he should have scored on, you can blame it on his weight.

Dood - All fair points. But I don't think you can look at Pablo and say that those things happen to him often (except maybe in 2010 when he got benched for not being able to field). His quickness, agility and even his leg speed have all probably been at or above average for a ML third baseman since then. I also heard that he kicked butt in the recent Carribean series.


Allen - If this was beer league softball, and Pablo worked full time at another job, then he might have an excuse. He's a professional athlete, with nothing else to do but get himself in optimum physical condition. Why not grow up and do it?

Dood - Once again, I can't argue that point...but the bottom line is performance. Is he making the plays you need him to make defensively and is he producing offensively? I would say that he is. If he wasn't, then you can possibly lay blame on the extra weight he carries. As long as he does produce...what's the big problem?


Allen - Also, over the last two seasons Pablo has missed 97 games.

Dood - Two hamate bone fractures were the main cause of that. The good news is he has no more hamate bones to fracture. Look, I get that he doesnt have the body of an adonis and he probably should be more dilligent about his fitness level. But I only care about the results. If what you're doing is working, keep doing it...if not, then it's time to change.

~Dood

[donk]

Dood - All fair points. But I don't think you can look at Pablo and say that those things happen to him often (except maybe in 2010 when he got benched for not being able to field). His quickness, agility and even his leg speed have all probably been at or above average for a ML third baseman since then. I also heard that he kicked butt in the recent Carribean series.

dk...I haven't seen one stat for Pablo from the Caribbean series...Did he play? He did help (MVP) his team win the Veniz. League, but he was in and out of the hospital with stomach problems...

[allenreed]

Feb 16, 2013 1:00:13 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Allen -- Also, over the last two seasons Pablo has missed 97 games.

Rog -- Do you think Pablo's weight was what broke both his hamate bones? You do make a good point about Pablo's conditioning, but it's similar to criticizing his plate selection. He's doing pretty well despite those flaws.

Allen- Whatever the reason, he's missed alot of time. I'm pretty sure it's not the conditioning that caused the hamates though. The only other player I've heard of having that injury is Jose Canseco, and he was in pretty good shape (by artificial means, of course).


The bottom line though is that Pablo is a darn good player, perhaps their second-best position player. Whether he will have longevity, we'll have to see. But right now he's pretty darn good -- and he has no more hamate bones to break.

Allen- Pablo is indeed a darn good player. If he got more serious about his job, he might be one of the all time greats. It comes down to why put obstacles in your path when you don't have to. Why would he come to camp fat? All it does is make you spend time working on getting in shape, when you could be using that time on improving your game.

[sharksrog]

Apparently the Giants would like to see Hector Sanchez get in better shape, as well.

But, Allen, while I agree with you that career-wise it is far more important that Hector and Pablo be in shape than that you do so, health-wise -- and long-term, isn't that the most important consideration? -- it is as important for you. And you have less time to make positive changes they they do.

My point here is, could the pot be calling the kettle black?

[klaiggeb]

I'll differ right back at ya. Anytime he's thrown out by a step, anytime he misses a ball by a few inches, or has it hit off the tip of his glove, any time he's just a tiny bit late on a fastball, any time he has to hold up at second on a ball he should of went first to third on, or hold up at third on a ball he should have scored on, you can blame it on his weight.


---boly says---

I'm with Allen on this one.

And he also left one out. All that extra weight can and WILL lead to hamstring problems as his age increases.

Can't carry that much extra poundage and not have to pay the piper somewhere along the trail.

boly

[allenreed]

Feb 18, 2013 9:54:07 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Apparently the Giants would like to see Hector Sanchez get in better shape, as well.

But, Allen, while I agree with you that career-wise it is far more important that Hector and Pablo be in shape than that you do so, health-wise -- and long-term, isn't that the most important consideration? -- it is as important for you. And you have less time to make positive changes they they do.

My point here is, could the pot be calling the kettle black?

Allen- I think we've danced this dance before, Rog. I do not make my living with my body and can do my job equally as well in my current condition as I can if I am in optimum shape. Pablo and Sanchez are making huge amounts of money to play baseball. I think it goes without saying that they can do their jobs markedly better if they are in optimum condition. Since their employers are paying them excessively well, as well as providing them with optimum conditioning, nutrition, and medical services, don't the players owe it to the club to be at their best?
There are so many things in baseball that you can't control. Conditioning is one factor that you can control, so why not do so? Why put obstacles in your own path? To me this shows complacency, immaturity, and irresponsibility. For Sanchez, who I wouldn't think has the team made, it is a definite red flag. Bochy should send him to the minor league camp until he gets himself in shape.

[sfgdood]

---boly says---

I'm with Allen on this one.

And he also left one out. All that extra weight can and WILL lead to hamstring problems as his age increases.

Can't carry that much extra poundage and not have to pay the piper somewhere along the trail.


Dood - you can definitely say that the extra weight increases the risk of leg muscle injuries, but nobody can say with any certainty that it WILL cause such injuries. Not all smokers end up with lung cancer, but they have a much better chance of contracting it than nonsmokers.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Rog -- Apparently the Giants would like to see Hector Sanchez get in better shape, as well.

But, Allen, while I agree with you that career-wise it is far more important that Hector and Pablo be in shape than that you do so, health-wise -- and long-term, isn't that the most important consideration? -- it is as important for you. And you have less time to make positive changes they they do.

My point here is, could the pot be calling the kettle black?



Allen- I think we've danced this dance before, Rog. I do not make my living with my body and can do my job equally as well in my current condition as I can if I am in optimum shape.

Rog -- So you're saying that the importance of being overweight has more to do with how one performs his job than its impact on his health and longevity?

I ask a health question, and you try to turn it into a job question? Just answer the question please.

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[allenreed]

I think it matters both ways. Of course being in shape will improve his health and longevity, but it also matters that it hinders the performance the Giants are paying good money for now. These huge contracts can't just be a one way street. The player owes the club their best. At his current weight, Pablo can't possibly give them that.

[sharksrog]

My point here, Allen, is that while I agree with you, I would respect your criticism here more if you lived up to itself.

Hey, I'm not model either. But I'm not continually harping about Pablo's weight.

It's not that you're not right here; it's that you're beating a dead horse.

As for Pablo and what he might provide in 2013:

. His weight seems to affect his fielding the most. I see Pablo as pretty much an average fielder who is above-average when lighter and below average when heavier. He seems to have quick reactions and a strong throwing arm, the two most important attributes of a third baseman.

. If Pablo is completely over his broken hamate bones (as his three-homer World Series game would seem to indicate), he should hit for both average and power. And if he does both, he should be feared enough to get on base.

Before his broken hamate bone in 2011, Pablo was hitting .329 with a .530 SLG. Before last's season's break, he he was hitting, .311 with a .500 SLG. That's good hitting, for both average and power. Those numbers would put him among the elite third basemen in the game. (Eddie Mathews hit .271 with a .509 SLG. Over his career, Pablo has hit .303 with a .490 SLG, or fairly comparable to Eddie. Pablo has hit for more average; Eddie hit for more power and walked a lot more.)

The projections for Pablo this season are pretty close to his .303/.353/.490/.844 career marks -- with just a little less average and a little more power per hit.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- My point here, Allen, is that while I agree with you, I would respect your criticism here more if you lived up to itself.

Hey, I'm not model either. But I'm not continually harping about Pablo's weight.

Boagie- I'm 6'1, 185lbs, does that give me more of a right to complain than someone out of shape? I don't think it does. Everyone here goes to spring training games, regular season games or purchases some baseball package to watch the Giants. That money affects the Giants payroll, this makes the fans stock holders in a sense. Without us they don't have a team.

I started this by calling Pablo fat, so it's likely me beating the dead horse here. But, just because Pablo continues to show up to spring training out of shape, doesn't mean people should give up and just accept his poor conditioning.

Allen, Boly, I and all fans SHOULD beat a dead horse in this situation. Pablo is getting paid a large sum of money to be a professional athlete, being in poor shape is inexcusable, and he keeps letting it happen.


Rog- . His weight seems to affect his fielding the most. I see Pablo as pretty much an average fielder who is above-average when lighter and below average when heavier. He seems to have quick reactions and a strong throwing arm, the two most important attributes of a third baseman.

. If Pablo is completely over his broken hamate bones (as his three-homer World Series game would seem to indicate), he should hit for both average and power. And if he does both, he should be feared enough to get on base.

Before his broken hamate bone in 2011, Pablo was hitting .329 with a .530 SLG. Before last's season's break, he he was hitting, .311 with a .500 SLG. That's good hitting, for both average and power. Those numbers would put him among the elite third basemen in the game. (Eddie Mathews hit .271 with a .509 SLG. Over his career, Pablo has hit .303 with a .490 SLG, or fairly comparable to Eddie. Pablo has hit for more average; Eddie hit for more power and walked a lot more.)

The projections for Pablo this season are pretty close to his .303/.353/.490/.844 career marks -- with just a little less average and a little more power per hit.

Boagie- Have you ever stopped to wonder if Pablo's broken hamate bones had something to do with the fact that his hands had to make up for the lack of lower body quickness?

Besides the Hamate bone issues, he had a pulled hamstring last year, and got to a point in 2010 where he was so out of shape that he could no longer field his position.

The numbers you posted here of Pablo's projections are swell, but the most important stat for Pablo in 2013 will be games played. We know Pablo can hit, we just don't know if he can stay healthy and contribute in a significant way.

[sharksrog]

Boagie- I'm 6'1, 185lbs, does that give me more of a right to complain than someone out of shape? I don't think it does.

Rog -- My point is that for Allen to criticize weight is a bit hypocritical, while for you it apparently isn't.

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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- Allen, Boly, I and all fans SHOULD beat a dead horse in this situation.

Rog -- For Boly and you, the horse hasn't yet died. For Allen, it has.

I don't know about you, but I was SHOCKED when Allen criticized Pablo's weight. He had never done so before.

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[sharksrog]

Boagie- Have you ever stopped to wonder if Pablo's broken hamate bones had something to do with the fact that his hands had to make up for the lack of lower body quickness?

Rog -- I've been trying to think of a way Pablo's overall condition could have affected the hamate bones. I think you took as good a shot at it as I can imagine. But I think it is highly unlikely.

I don't think Pablo lacks quickness. I think he lacks speed.


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[sharksrog]

Boagie -- The numbers you posted here of Pablo's projections are swell, but the most important stat for Pablo in 2013 will be games played.

Rog -- I understand your point here, but it may not be broad enough in its concept.

Would you rather have Pablo hit .268/.323/.409/.732 in 152 games as he did in 2010, or .315/.357/.552/.909 in 117 games as was the case in 2011? I think the answer is as obvious as the question is rhetorical.

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[allenreed]

I don't know about you, but I was SHOCKED when Allen criticized Pablo's weight. He had never done so before.

Allen- Sarcasm? I've criticized Pablo's weight plenty. My weight has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. Pablo makes his living with his body. He should keep that body in optimum shape. Another thing, I'm 57 years old with a degenerative disc. Pablo's 26, and as far as I know has no such malady.
Also, Pablo has access to training facilities, nutritionists and trainers that I don't. he also has alot more time to train than I do.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- Would you rather have Pablo hit .268/.323/.409/.732 in 152 games as he did in 2010, or .315/.357/.552/.909 in 117 games as was the case in 2011?

Boagie- I would like him to show up to spring training in shape and ready to play baseball. Considering he's making millions of dollars, I don't think that's too much to ask.

[sfgdood]

Allen - I think it matters both ways. Of course being in shape will improve his health and longevity, but it also matters that it hinders the performance the Giants are paying good money for now. These huge contracts can't just be a one way street. The player owes the club their best. At his current weight, Pablo can't possibly give them that.

Dood - I think it comes down to an answer to this question. Are the Giants (and all other teams, for that matter) paying for effort--including offseason conditioning--or are they paying for performance? If a player is swinging the bat at a decent clip and driving in or scoring runs--whichever his role may be in the lineup--if he is making the defensive plays, showing up to all workouts and participating fully in all team obligations, including with the media...if he's doing all these things, then most reasonable people would say that he is living up to his contract. If the player is doing all these things and the team is benefitting by it--ie by winning division titles and World Series rings--then the team could very well consider itself to be getting good value by the contract.

What you seem to be saying is that the Giants should expect MAXIMUM value to be extrated from each contract and that is simply not reasonable in today's game. And really I think you have a bigger issue personally with Pablo's weight than the Giants do. I mean it's not like the guy was sitting on his ass all offseason long. He was active, keeping his game sharp, playing a lot of ball. He actually was as or more active than the majority of players in the offseason I would say.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Rog- Would you rather have Pablo hit .268/.323/.409/.732 in 152 games as he did in 2010, or .315/.357/.552/.909 in 117 games as was the case in 2011?

Boagie- I would like him to show up to spring training in shape and ready to play baseball. Considering he's making millions of dollars, I don't think that's too much to ask.

Rog -- And your answer to my question is?

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[Islandboagie]

Rog -- And your answer to my question is?

Boagie- He showed up in the best shape to spring training in 2011, so I guess that's my answer. Not coincidentally 2011 was easily his best season of the last 3 years. More evidence to prove Allen's orginal point that conditioning makes a fairly big difference and should NOT be ignored.

[sharksrog]

Rog -- And your answer to my question is?

Boagie- He showed up in the best shape to spring training in 2011, so I guess that's my answer.

Rog -- Except that it didn't directly answer the question, which was: Would you rather have Pablo hit .268/.323/.409/.732 in 152 games as he did in 2010, or .315/.357/.552/.909 in 117 games as was the case in 2011?

So why did I ask that question: Because you wrote: the most important stat for Pablo in 2013 will be games played.

My point was that the most important stat for Pablo might not be games played. That was all. I understand what you meant, and I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I was merely pointing out an instance in which the importance of what you felt would be the most important stat for Pablo wouldn't necessarily be the most important stat -- as was illustrated by 2010 and 2011.

You didn't get that?

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[sharksrog]

Boagie- He showed up in the best shape to spring training in 2011, so I guess that's my answer. Not coincidentally 2011 was easily his best season of the last 3 years. More evidence to prove Allen's orginal point that conditioning makes a fairly big difference and should NOT be ignored.

Rog -- Isn't this a big "du-u-uh?" No one is questioning the value of conditioning here. What I am questioning is Allen's self-righteous attitude. No question whatsoever about the value of conditioning -- especially for an athlete.

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[Islandboagie]

Rog -- Isn't this a big "du-u-uh?" No one is questioning the value of conditioning here. What I am questioning is Allen's self-righteous attitude. No question whatsoever about the value of conditioning -- especially for an athlete.

Boagie- I'm confused, if you agree, why are you disagreeing? Allen, Boly and I merely commented on an ongoing problem that even Bruce Bochy felt the need to address. Considering we discuss Giants topics here I don't see why someone would be labeled as "self-righteous" for giving his opinion on the matter. None of us here are in as good shape as any of these players, and nobody here can pitch or hit like any of the players. Should I not be able to comment on Tim Lincecum's velocity because I can't throw a ball that fast? Or should you not be able to comment on Crawford's K/BB ratio?

[sharksrog]

Rog -- Isn't this a big "du-u-uh?" No one is questioning the value of conditioning here. What I am questioning is Allen's self-righteous attitude. No question whatsoever about the value of conditioning -- especially for an athlete.

Boagie- I'm confused, if you agree, why are you disagreeing?

Rog -- I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I am merely commenting that the key stat for Pablo's season may NOT be the number of games he plays (as you said) and that Allen might be hypocritical for criticizing Pablo for being overweight when Allen himself is.

Career-wise, it isn't nearly as important for Allen as it is for Pablo. But health-wise (which is likely bigger than career-wise), it is.

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