You've GOT to be kidding me!

[klaiggeb]

On the gallactically STUPID scale, and yes, I DO MEAN STUPID, Bochy just announced his tentative rotation.

1.Matt Cain
2.Madison Bumgarner
3.Tim Lincecum
4.Barry Zito
5.Ryan Vogelsong

Zito and Mr. 5+ ERA ahead of Vogelsong?

Just put a gun to my head and shoot me! I understand that Bochy has been exceptionally good at managing this club, but I also have posted time and time and time again how his moves exhasparate, confuse and confound me.

This is another, and sorry, Batman, but it's just assinine!

All this to keep the Lefty/right split up?

Who pitched better last year, Vogey, Zito or Lincecum?

If I'm Vogelsong, I'm ticked beyond belief! What does the guy have to do in the last 2 years to NOT be #5?

You remember # 5... the guys whose spot in the rotation often gets SKIPPED!

Season isn't even here and Bochy has already ticked me off.

boly

[Islandboagie]

I think having Vogelsong in the 5th slot starting the year has more to do with the World Baseball Classic than anything else. And I seriously doubt Vogelsong cares where he is in the rotation. As much as I like Vogelsong, Tim Lincecum is a frontline starter, Vogey isn't. Timmy had a rough year last season, but he's still Tim Lincecum, he's still earned the respect.

[donk]

I think it is an attempt to seperate his 2 left handers....I don't think rotation really means that is how you rank your pitchers..I would think Vogey is #3 and Tim #5 until Tim shows improvement over last year...

[klaiggeb]

I think it is an attempt to seperate his 2 left handers....I don't think rotation really means that is how you rank your pitchers..I would think Vogey is #3 and Tim #5 until Tim shows improvement over last year...

--boly says--

Don, I agree. That's exactly what it is, and in my post, I said that.

You hit the proverbial nail right on its proverbial head; Tim SHOULD BE #5 until he PROVES otherwise.

I don't care what his CY young history is. Last year he was terrible, and unless he makes a dramatic showing in the spring this year, he should open at #5. Period.

boly

[allenreed]

As much as I like Vogelsong, Tim Lincecum is a frontline starter, Vogey isn't.

Allen- Why isn't Vogey a front line starter? He's 27-16, 3.04 over the last two seasons. Timmy's 23-29,4.08 over the same period. Last year Timmy led the league in losses while pitching for a division winner, led in earned runs surrendered and led in wild pitches. The Giants are 31-35 in Timmy starts over the last two seasons. They're 36-25 in Vogey starts over the same period.
Frankly, I don't think it matters a whole lot who pitches where in the rotation other than seperating your lefties, perhaps. But I do think Timmy has some things to prove this year. I'm not sure Vogey does.

[sharksrog]

Why did everyone seem to just fly by Boagie's comment that the rotation likely had more to do with the World Baseball Classic than other considerations? Perhaps being last in the rotation can buy Ryan one more pre-season start to help him get ready.

And except for strategic purposes, who cares where guys are in the rotation anyway? I mean, if someone says that Ryan should start #3 instead of Tim because he kills the Dodgers and two or three of the later opponents he would face, while Tim has been lousy against them, then I would listen more.

Will being #5 instead of #3 result in one less start for Ryan before the All-Star game? I haven't looked at the schedule, but there is a 3 in 5 chance it won't. And if it does, the Giants can make an adjustment after the break that would even things out.

If we're going to criticize the rotation, let's find a strategic reason why we should do so.

By the way, possibly lost in all this is that they guy I think might get short shrift is actually Matt Cain. He will be the only Giants right-hander who won't have the benefit of following a southpaw in the rotation.

I don't think this is a Tim vs. Ryan thing. Tim swallowed his pride and was a force out of the bullpen in the postseason. To me, the whole thing about a rotation is setting it up to the greatest strategic advantage. I haven't looked, so I have no idea if that is the case.

But one can assume that Bruce Bochy had his reasons -- and some consider him the best manager in the game. Not that Bruce is above criticism, but if we do criticize, we should likely have valid reasons that affect the Giants' play -- not merely our own opinions of what is right and wrong.

Perhaps there are considerations Bruce is considering that the rest of us either aren't privvy to or are simply not figuring out.

[sfgdood]

Boly, you know I respect you, but you are a PIONEER of paranoia! When every starter is getting 30+ starts in a 162 game season, can you really tell me with a straight face that the order in which they go makes a huge difference? You have this thing about respect being earned by the rotation order and it's just not about respect. Bochy feels perfectly fine--as do I--with any member of the rotation going in any order and that's how the team feels and that's what makes them the 2 times in 3 years champions.

As for Vogey being #5, Andrew Baggerly has said that he believes it has to do with Vogey being on Team USA for the WBC. Baggs speculates that since there is no way for the Giants to know or manage how much work Vogey will be getting this next month, Bochy wants to have the option of giving Ryan some extra work or maybe rest before his first start of the season.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

Randy -- As for Vogey being #5, Andrew Baggerly has said that he believes it has to do with Vogey being on Team USA for the WBC. Baggs speculates that since there is no way for the Giants to know or manage how much work Vogey will be getting this next month, Bochy wants to have the option of giving Ryan some extra work or maybe rest before his first start of the season.

Rog -- Very good point, Randy. It pretty much echoes what Boagie said.

This is much to do over nothing. The Giants play 95 games prior to the All-Star break, so barring injury or a strategy change, each of the 5 starters will get 19 starts before the break. Then the Giants can re-arrange their rotation as they choose in order to divide up the remaining 67 starts.

Even there, the only thing that might matter is which pitchers get the first two starts in the accepted 2nd half of the season. Those two pitchers should get 33 starts on the season; the other three should get 32.

The rotation the Giants use at the beginning of the season should have no effect on how many starts a particular pitcher -- whether it be Tim or Ryan -- receives on the season.

By the way, whichever pitcher Bochy chose to be the #3 starter would open the season against the Dodgers, while the other would face the Cardinals. As bad a 2012 season as Tim had -- and it was atrocious -- his ERA against the Dodgers last season was 2.63. That said, Ryan's was even better, at 0.71.

Neither Tim nor Ryan faced the Cardinals last regular season. But in the playoffs, Ryan beat them twice with a 1.29 ERA, while Tim lost his one start against the Cards, yielding 4 runs in 4.2 innings.

Clearly it is important that Tim get off to a good start to the season. He has pitched very well against the Dodgers over his career, fashioning a 2.81 ERA against them.


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[Islandboagie]

Allen- Why isn't Vogey a front line starter? He's 27-16, 3.04 over the last two seasons. Timmy's 23-29,4.08 over the same period. Last year Timmy led the league in losses while pitching for a division winner, led in earned runs surrendered and led in wild pitches. The Giants are 31-35 in Timmy starts over the last two seasons. They're 36-25 in Vogey starts over the same period.
Frankly, I don't think it matters a whole lot who pitches where in the rotation other than seperating your lefties, perhaps. But I do think Timmy has some things to prove this year. I'm not sure Vogey does.

Boagie- You're right Allen, I misspoke when I said Vogey wasn't a frontline starter. What I meant to say was Lincecum's stuff is more characteristic of a frontline starter. Vogey would likely be #3 or better on most ballclubs.

Timmy had an awful year, no doubt about it, but thats 1 bad season compared to 4 really good seasons where he established himself among the top of the elite pitchers in baseball. His Cy Young awards were not a fluke. His leading the league in strikeouts three years in a row wasn't a fluke. I don't think that one year should be the deciding factor of how to set the rotation the next season.

If we only took last year into consideration Vogey wouldn't be #5 or #3, he'd probably be #2. why is nobody bitching about Bumgarner taking Vogelsong's spot? I'll tell you why...for whatever reason the Bay Area media has decided that Tim Lincecum is a no good piece of sh*t, and the fans are buying into it.

My comments on the rotation aren't based on what I think Vogey will give us, but more on my faith in Lincecum rebounding..

I will make my first bold prediction of the year, Tim Lincecum will return to form. And I don't mean his 2011 form, I'm talking about about 2008-2010 form. Cy Young candidate and strikeout leader form. Mark it down, I don't think my prediction is as bold as the Bay Area media has made it sound. I think all the Lincecum naysayers will have a full serving of crow to be eaten come All-Star break.

[sharksrog]

Boagie -- for whatever reason the Bay Area media has decided that Tim Lincecum is a no good piece of sh*t, and the fans are buying into it.

Rog -- What is this crud about the Bay Area having such anal thoughts about Tim? I haven't seen evidence of it. I think anyone looking at the situation objectively has to think Tim's future is more confusing than perhaps that of any pitcher in baseball.

Boagie -- I will make my first bold prediction of the year, Tim Lincecum will return to form. And I don't mean his 2011 form, I'm talking about about 2008-2010 form.

Rog -- There is no bigger booster here of Tim than I. I said the probability of Tim's bouncing back last season was high -- and indeed he did bounce back in the second half and the postseason.

He didn't bounce back as much as I thought he would, but he did bounce back to be an above-average pitcher after the All-Star game -- after being the very worst before it.

I personally don't think Tim will bounce back to his Cy Young form -- ever. It is possible, but he would need to make a HUGE improvement in his command. His command would need to be significantly better than it has ever been -- even in his two Cy Young seasons. During those seasons, Tim was able to overcome his lack of command with exceptional stuff. His stuff is still very good -- but he has lost enough velocity that he can no longer consistently overcome his command mistakes.

One thing you state here that doesn't make sense to me is that you lump 2010 in with 2008 and 2009, while it clearly should be equated more with 2011.

In 2008 and 2009, Tim struck out 28.6% and 28.8% of the batters he faced. He walked 9.1% (down from 10.5% in his rookie season) before reaching a career low 7.5%. In 2010 and 2011, his K rate dropped to 25.8% and 24.4%, while his BB rate rose to 8.5% and 9.6%.

It isn't good for a pitcher to have both his strikeout percentage declining and his walk rate rising.

Tim's home run rate was up from 0.44 and 0.40 in 2008 and 2009 to 0.76 in 2010 and 0.62 in 2011. Again, not good.

Tim's fastball, at 94.0 and 92.4 mph in 2008 and 2009, dropped to 91.2 and 92.2 in 2010 and 2011. Again, not good.

Tim's first-strike pitching dropped from 57.5% and 56.7% to 56.5% and 53.7%. Not quite what the doctor ordered.

Tim's percentage of pitches in the strike zone dropped from 50.3% and 50.0% to 47.3% and 42.3%.

His contact percentage on pitches outside the strike zone jumped from 49.6% and 48.8% to 56.0% and 61.7%. That showed batters weren't as fooled by his kill pitches.

In other words, Tim was headed downhill -- and both his 2010 and 2011 seasons weren't nearly as great as his 2008 and 2009 Cy Young seasons.

You may recall that a year ago both Allen and I suggested the Giants trade Tim. I don't know exactly how Allen came to his conclusion, but above you can see the reasons I did.

Did I expect Tim to have the disasterous season he had? No way. But I felt his trade value would never be higher -- and a team acquiring him had him locked up for at least two years. Or the way it turned out based on last season, ONLY two years.

On Clubhouse Confidential it was said today that there was no pitcher in baseball whose free agent salary would be as effected by 2013 season as Tim's. It has been said here that Tim's salary can't bounce back, even if he has a really good 2013 season. I should add that has been stated INCORRECTLY.

You have predicted that this season Tim will pitch back to his 2008 throgh 2010 form. There is a big difference between the first two of those seasons and the last one.

I believe the ceiling for Tim is much closer to his 2010 and 2011 seasons than to his two Cy Young years. I admire you for the clear, bold prediction. But as much as I would love it to come true, I would be surprised if it happened.

Not as surprised as I was with his 2012 season, but still quite a bit surprised.

You think the naysayers will be eating crow by the All-Star break. Even if he bounces back strongly, I think that would be too early. Even with his significant second half improvement last season, Tim wasn't the pitcher he had been even as recently as 2011.

Tim pitched a lot better in the second half, but his strikeout rate actually FELL to just under a strikeout per inning. His walks declined, but they were still higher than any prior season. His 7 second half wild pitches were close to his full-season totals of 9 each of the past two seasons.

I would love to see Tim break out the knuckleball he has fooled around with. Of course, that would likely make his control even worse. But without another trick pitch, Tim is going to need a HUGE improvement in his command.

One thing that could be a positive for 2013 is that, as was the case in 2011, Tim may be able to get back some of his velocity. Brian Sabean has surprisingly gone on record as saying that won't be the case, but it isn't impossible. Tim has added muscle this winter in an effort to gain more stamina and perhaps add a foot back to his fastball.

I do think Tim will show significant improvement this season. But I think you are over-estimating the extent of it.

A great season could put Tim close to Zack Greinke territory -- possibly even higher. Another bad season would likely result in his having to take a one-year contract, giving him time to bounce back to a longer, much higher contract.

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[Islandboagie]

Rog -- What is this crud about the Bay Area having such anal thoughts about Tim? I haven't seen evidence of it. I think anyone looking at the situation objectively has to think Tim's future is more confusing than perhaps that of any pitcher in baseball.

Boagie- I recently posted an article written by Bob Nightengale, who apparently has it in for the Giants for whatever reason. He's also the brainless twit who hounded your buddy Chris Lincecum until he lost his cool and bashed San Francisco. Or at least that's the way Bob made it sound in his article on Chris's meltdown. I think Chris was mainly refering to the media, not the Giants organization and their fans. Chris was merely sticking up for his son like most fathers would do. Now, I know Bob Nightengale is a writer for USA Today, but the Bay Area media also ran with the story during Tim's low point, and the same day he was scheduled to make a start. They covered the marijuana story, which makes sense, that is a story. But then they comment on his unhealthy addiction to In-N-Out, the guy weighs 160, who cares!? All of last year they talk about how Tim should be demoted to Fresno, or traded. Chris Lincecum, eventhough he lost his cool echoed my feelings exactly in his quotes. The media was 100% relentless on Tim last year.

[sharksrog]

Boagie- I recently posted an article written by Bob Nightengale, who apparently has it in for the Giants for whatever reason. He's also the brainless twit who hounded your buddy Chris Lincecum until he lost his cool and bashed San Francisco. Or at least that's the way Bob made it sound in his article on Chris's meltdown. I think Chris was mainly refering to the media, not the Giants organization and their fans. Chris was merely sticking up for his son like most fathers would do. Now, I know Bob Nightengale is a writer for USA Today, but the Bay Area media also ran with the story during Tim's low point, and the same day he was scheduled to make a start. They covered the marijuana story, which makes sense, that is a story. But then they comment on his unhealthy addiction to In-N-Out, the guy weighs 160, who cares!? All of last year they talk about how Tim should be demoted to Fresno, or traded. Chris Lincecum, eventhough he lost his cool echoed my feelings exactly in his quotes. The media was 100% relentless on Tim last year.

Rog -- I understand what you're saying here. I would like to point out a few things though:

. Given Tim's ongoing and inexplicable floundering last season, the Nightengale likely became a story unto itself. If your job is to report and comment on the news, it likely was professional for the Bay Area media to cover the story rather than to ignore it. Whether Tim was going to start that day or not had little to do with that decision.

. Weren't you concerned when the news came out that Tim was trying to increase his weight at In'N'Out Burger? Mine was.

. I watched a lot of Chronicle Live on CSN Bay Area last season, and there was more support for Tim than I expected. The comments on that show seemed to stabilize overall at least at the level of, "I just don't know how he'll do."

. Let's not forget that Tim himself was surprisingly candid that he was working hard between starts, but that he just couldn't figure things out.

. As for your comment that since Tim weighed just 160 pounds, what difference was it what he ate? -- isn't that rather naive? I realize Tim felt that he didn't have enough weight in the 2010 season to keep up his strength, contributing to his shocking August of that season. But then in 2011 he felt he was too heavy. Leading to a 2012 in which his mechanics were said to be suffering because he had lost too much weight getting down from 2011.

. Given how Tim's performance had fallen off with shocking quickness, I thought the media supported him pretty well. Tim appears to be a likeable guy for the media, and he certainly didn't alibi, which many would have done.

. As for Chris, I do like him and consider him to be a friend. At one time, yeah, we were pretty much buddies. But when I sent an email to Brian Sabean in which I mentioned how much Chris had enjoyed himself at the All-Star game, I think Chris felt I had betrayed his confidence, even though the email was highly positive about Tim and in fact IIRC was sent to Brian to give him statistical ammunition for Tim's 2009 Cy Young bid.

My last intent was to not keep Chris's comments in confidence, but while Chris and I still email a bit, he has never since shared with me anything at all inside. If we were living close, I'm pretty sure I could have seen him face-to-face and convinced him that I was determined not to say anything that would be inappropriate. I have held back on this until now because I didn't want to break confidence and/or say anything negative about the situation.

Maybe I could have if I had done more than simply respond to him that I felt the email was a GOOD thing. It was a while before I realized he had cooled significantly, and then it was basically too late to regain his trust.

Hey, maybe I'll send him an email now to try to clear the air, but I don't think the situation is truly repairable. I don't expect to ever receive any type of inside information again.

You are right that it was natural for Chris to protect his son, and I think it is clear that Chris is an emotional guy.

Whether Boly and Don turn out to be right about Tim's mechanics ultimately causing his demise, I strongly believe that without his unorthodox motion, Tim probably wouldn't have had anything close to the success he has achieved. There is simply no way to know, and I could certainly be wrong about that.

But getting back to the point, Chris's reaction became an issue because while it was somewhat natural (and even lauditory, to a point), Chris's lack of tact made a much different story out of the interview than it otherwise could have been. I'm pretty sure Tim was at least a little embarassed by the story. Given all that was going on, it served him best to get under the radar at least a little -- rather than having the flames fanned again.

Although it was Chris's comments that got all the attention, they were actually a very small part of the article. I just re-read the article, and Chris's comments made up two of about 50 paragraphs. The article indicated that Chris was contacted by Nightengale because Tim had told him about a close conversation with his dad.

Tim himself was quoted as saying, "I've never gone through anything like this in my life... I know I'm going to come out of this eventually. I just wish I knew when."

A scout said "If he doesn't learn how to pitch, all bets are off with him."

Dave Righetti said, "He's been struggling, no doubt about it. And it's been going on a while now."

Bruce Bochy said, "He's such an enigma right now."

As for any effect the story may have immediately had on Tim's performance, the day of the start you mentioned, he lowered his ERA from 6.19 to 6.07. In his next start, he lowered it to 5.60.

Hey, Tim's situation was and is complex. Giants fans will be watching his spring training start today. Tim's spring training starts haven't seemed to matter.

Now they do.



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[allenreed]

I don't think that one year should be the deciding factor of how to set the rotation the next season.

Allen- First of all, I think you're making a much bigger thing out of this than it is. Timmy will still get as many starts as anyone else. But he did have a bad year last year, an awful year, really. He may come back, I hope you're right in predicting that he will. But do you show the guys behind him that they're not going to advance, no matter how well they do and how poorly the guys in front of them perform?

If we only took last year into consideration Vogey wouldn't be #5 or #3, he'd probably be #2. why is nobody bitching about Bumgarner taking Vogelsong's spot? I'll tell you why...for whatever reason the Bay Area media has decided that Tim Lincecum is a no good piece of sh*t, and the fans are buying into it.

Allen- Bummy had a pretty good year last year, and is viewed as an up and comer. I imagine the fact that he throws lefthanded has something to do with his slot as well.
I don't think many feel Tim is excrement, but I do think there are alot of fans who think he has alot to prove. I'm kind of in the "let's wait and see" boat myself.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- I watched a lot of Chronicle Live on CSN Bay Area last season, and there was more support for Tim than I expected.

Boagie- Of course, the Giants own 30% of CSN Bay Area. Chronicle live is merely there to pat the players on the back, talk about Brandon Crawford's mom, and Matt Cain's golf game.

Rog- Let's not forget that Tim himself was surprisingly candid that he was working hard between starts, but that he just couldn't figure things out.

Boagie- You're right, he was candid about his struggles. From everything Tim talks about in his interviews, I get the feeling he works his butt off, and wants only to contribute to the team. I know your buddies with Tim's dad, but I would also like to add that Timmy apparently got his composure from his mother's side of the family. They've tried to break Tim, but he's proven to be better than his pops in the regard.

Which is why I think he could return to form. you take that composure, add the arm strengthening regimen, and he could be as good as before.

The media doesn't just come out and say it, but they have done a fair amount of portraying him as just the opposite of what I see of Tim in his interviews. A lazy, pot smoking, fast food eating, money grubbing freak, who's seen his best days as a player come and go, whom the Giants should get rid of as soon as possible. I might be exaggerating a tad here, but we have heard mutterings in the media on all of these examples. It's not really a matter of if they do it, because we know they do. I just don't buy into it.

Do you honestly believe Matt Cain has never had a hamburger? Didn't Affeldt cut himself trying to pry apart two frozen hamburger patties with a knife? Why is Timmy eating a hamburger major news while everyone else gets a free pass?

I believe players should be held accountable in the public eye, but to what extent? Tim Lincecum has gone from the S.F. Hero, to about any derogatory name in the book, for what reason? Because he had one bad year? I understand why they do it, the writers want to be noticed, and you get noticed alot more if you're a prick rather than if you sugarcoat everything, even if it proves you have no clue what you're writing about. But why do the fans buy into it?

I just feel the same Chris did when he went on his rampage. Tim Lincecum is being ousted out of the Bay Area by the same people who enjoyed the first World Series Championship in S.F. history. Nary a bottle of champagne would have been popped without Lincecum on our side, even in 2012.

Rog- Whether Boly and Don turn out to be right about Tim's mechanics ultimately causing his demise, I strongly believe that without his unorthodox motion, Tim probably wouldn't have had anything close to the success he has achieved.

Boagie- Bingo!


Rog- As for any effect the story may have immediately had on Tim's performance, the day of the start you mentioned, he lowered his ERA from 6.19 to 6.07. In his next start, he lowered it to 5.60.

Boagie- Bingo again! You know Tim's dad, Rog, so let me run this past you, see what you think...

Last year when this story broke, I was surprised that Tim's dad would lose his cool like that. My immediate thought was that he had a bad day and let his feelings fly...But after a little while I thought it was a incredibly bad timing, or perhaps incredibly good timing. As we noted, it broke the morning of a big game for Tim, perhaps Chris intentionally lost his cool. Chris has been Tim's lifelong coach, he knows what drives Tim more than anything. It might be a stretch, but maybe Chris intentionally put the focus on himself, to take a little heat off his own son while also maybe throwing out a bit of a "Dad's got your back" public message to his son before the big game. I've wondered about that... Thoughts?

[klaiggeb]

Boly, you know I respect you, but you are a PIONEER of paranoia! When every starter is getting 30+ starts in a 162 game season, can you really tell me with a straight face that the order in which they go makes a huge difference? You have this thing about respect being earned by the rotation order and it's just not about respect. Bochy feels perfectly fine--as do I--with any member of the rotation going in any order and that's how the team feels and that's what makes them the 2 times in 3 years champions.


---boly says---

Randy, I do appreciate the respect, and I also value your comments even when I disagree.

No question that over the course of a season it balances out. But, and for me, here's the thing. Spots in the rotation HAVE to be earned, and based upon Tim's last season, what he was, he no longeer is.

Vogey has turned in 2 consecutive good seasons.

Tim has not.

Thus, out of respect for what they've done the last 2 years, Vogey is not the # 5. Tim is

I WAS a pitcher, and getting that opening day start, or my place in the rotation WAS a big deal. It spoke to my consistancy and my having earned it my previous seasons.

I guess it's a personal thing. I don't look at the season as a whole other than the LHP/RHP breaks in the rotation.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Boly, I agree for the most part here, players should be rewarded for their success. Vogey had a good season in 2012 and actually moved a spot down in the rotation. Seems unfair.

You're just not really looking at it from Bochy's perspective here...

As I first mentioned, I think Bochy's decision comes down to the World Baseball Classic. Today Vogelsong is scheduled to get some work in, that's one day earlier than what is normal. They want to get him ready to pitch extended innings in the WBC, and they also want to get a good look at him before he goes.

They'll want to get a good look at him when he comes back and make sure he's ready for the season. The USA team is pretty good this year, and If my schedule is correct, Ryan Vogelsong might not return to camp until March 20th if the USA team plays in the final. That leaves 11 days of exhibition baseball left before the season starts. It's quite possible that even being 5th in the rotation will still only give him maybe 2 starts after he comes back, 3 possible games if he wasn't used on the final few days of the WBC. If he was 3rd in the rotation he would have no chance to get in 3 games, and might struggle to get 2 in.

Taking all this into consideration, Bochy's decision makes sense. His job is to make sure everyone is ready for the season, not to stroke egos.

I don't think there are any hard feelings here. Vogey got the starting spot in the rotation over Lincecum in the post season, I think it's clear who Bochy has more faith in as of right now.

[klaiggeb]

Boly, I agree for the most part here, players should be rewarded for their success. Vogey had a good season in 2012 and actually moved a spot down in the rotation. Seems unfair.

You're just not really looking at it from Bochy's perspective here...

---boly says---

Boagie: I didn't copy and paste the whole post, just the beginning. What you said makes perfect sense. I had not realized that it would be March 20th when they got back.

I really appreciate your taking the time to help me understand it from another perspective.

boly

[sharksrog]

Boagie: I didn't copy and paste the whole post, just the beginning. What you said makes perfect sense. I had not realized that it would be March 20th when they got back.

Boly -- I really appreciate your taking the time to help me understand it from another perspective.

Rog -- See what a classy guy Boly is? Fabulous.

Boly was looking at the situation as rewarding pitchers for their performance (or lack thereof). Bochy likely manages that aspect by talking to his pitchers about his reasons.

Tactically, it is hard to argue with his decision.

Based on performance last season, one could argue that Ryan should be #l, although most would think Matt is all that, and then some would go with Mad Bum.

If the rotation were picked in reverse alphabetical order, the #l guy would be very Barry. If it were based on which pitcher has had the most spectacular career, it would be Lincecum.

Lincecum would also be #l if the Giants decided to get him out of the way first (based solely on last season).


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[donk]

If it was based on last year, Tim would be in the Pen or Fresno....

[Islandboagie]

Boly -- I really appreciate your taking the time to help me understand it from another perspective.

Rog -- See what a classy guy Boly is? Fabulous.


Boagie- Indeed. Eventhough Boly wears his heart on his sleeve, he still conducts himself in a very classy, open-minded way. We could all learn to be a little more like this.

[klaiggeb]

Boly -- I really appreciate your taking the time to help me understand it from another perspective.

Rog -- See what a classy guy Boly is? Fabulous.


Boagie- Indeed. Eventhough Boly wears his heart on his sleeve, he still conducts himself in a very classy, open-minded way. We could all learn to be a little more like this.

---boly says---

Very kind words, guys, and they are most appreciated.

Boagie, you hit the proverbial nail right on its proverbial head; I'm an easy read. One always knows where one stands with me because I DO wear my heart on my sleeve.

boly

[sfgdood]

I think even Boly would admit to being closed-minded on many topics, but classy is right on the money.

~Dood

[sharksrog]

A point I heard today and even presented last season, but had forgotten this year.

Part of setting a rotation would seem to be evening out the workloads of the bullpen in general. If one places together all the pitchers who are likely to need more bullpen help in terms of innings, the bullpen is more likely to have periods of overwork followed by periods of drought.

Based on that, one could argue for separating Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito in the rotation. Perhaps by not doing so, Bruce Bochy is expressing confidence in Tim's ability to return to his former life as something of an innings eater.

[donk]

or Zito....but, Bochy really doesn't have the patience for letting a pitcher pitch his way out of trouble from the 6th inning or 100 pitch total....and it worked last year.....the problem is that the pen put a lot of work into last season, will they be able to continue it this year.....

[sharksrog]

Don -- the problem is that the pen put a lot of work into last season, will they be able to continue it this year.....

Rog -- I expect the bullpen to decline this year. They have good depth though and might get a midseason boost from Heath Hembree.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1572&page=1#9317#ixzz2MXW8VBNN

[klaiggeb]

I think even Boly would admit to being closed-minded on many topics, but classy is right on the money.

~Dood

--boly says---

Thank you for the kind words, Randy. And you do have me pegged properly. I am closed minded to some topics for various reasons.

boly

[Islandboagie]

Thank you for the kind words, Randy. And you do have me pegged properly. I am closed minded to some topics for various reasons.

boly


Boagie- The difference here is that you admit you're incorrect about something if you are given evidence that may look at things a different way.

Like for instance... if you thought there was no east coast bias, and then saw evidence that there was instances of bias, you wouldn't slowly change your argument to "who cares if there's a bias, it just makes the Giants try harder."

[sharksrog]

Boagie -- Like for instance... if you thought there was no east coast bias, and then saw evidence that there was instances of bias, you wouldn't slowly change your argument to "who cares if there's a bias, it just makes the Giants try harder."

Rog -- That's nice going, Boagie. That same thought came to my mind when I made my post.

I guess for me it comes back to definition and degree.

First, is the East Coast truly biased, or are geography and time zones to blame for much if not most of the "bias" that exists?

Maybe one question here would help clear this up. Are WE biased against the East Coast? I don't feel that we are to any great extent. If that is the case, why would the East Coast be biased against US? Is it simply or at least mostly geography and time zones?

Second, to what DEGREE does this "bias" exist? I see Bruce Bochy being rated the #1 manager. I see Buster Posey winning the MVP. I see Tim Lincecum winning two Cy Youngs and being rated very highly until last season.

I see Mike Trout being heralded as the #1 player right now. His manager, Mike Scoscia, is considered to be among the best. Was Matt Kemp the MVP a year ago, or did he finish 2nd?

Felix Hernandez has won a Cy Young. He and Jered Weaver seem to consistently be among the top finishers in the Cy voting.

Clayton Kershaw is recognized as perhaps the best young pitcher in the game. Sergio Romo somehow got ranked #2 among relievers even though he hasn't been a full-time closer over even half a season.

So:

. I don't think it is a true bias. To the extent it exists (and I agree with you that it does does to some extent), it seems to be mostly geographically and time zone related.

. I don't think it exists to a high degree.

. It doesn't seem to be hurting West Coast stars in the various voting for top players.

Maybe Buster should be higher than #21. But Joe Mauer was rated something like #80, and Joe is more proven and has a higher career batting average.

How much bias IS there?
Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1572&page=1#9372#ixzz2MnAXie1k

[sharksrog]

We were talking here originally about Tim Lincecum being named to start the 3rd game and Ryan Vogelsong the 5th (which is probably a better way of looking at the situation as if Lincecum is thus the #3 starter and Vogelsong #5 in presumed effectiveness).

The blister Tim suffered and the uncertainty of how much Ryan will be used in the World Baseball Championships and when the U.S. will conclude play could mean the two will once again switch places.

Tim's blister is said to be no big deal, but it did force him to miss a start, which theoretically puts him one start behind in his preparedness for the regular season. If Ryan finishes his work early and gets a fair amount of it in the WBC, he might be the more ready of the two when the season starts and wind up pitching the 3rd game, with Tim then taking the 5th outing.

I'm not sure that aside from being the Opening Day starter, the order in the rotation means all that much. As has been pointed out, each of the starters should get 19 starts prior to the All-Star game, and the Giants can re-arrange the rotation then if they deem it beneficial.

[sfgdood]

Thank you for the kind words, Randy. And you do have me pegged properly. I am closed minded to some topics for various reasons.

boly


Boagie- The difference here is that you admit you're incorrect about something if you are given evidence that may look at things a different way.

Dood - with all due respect to Boly--and I do believe I've given that to him on this thread (at least I have tried and meant to)--there are certain things that he is not only slow to change his mind on, regardless of evidence shown to him, but he absolutely will flat refuse to change his mind at any time about. That said, I still love our exchanges and I'd never change anything about him because, well, it's just Boly being Boly

~Dood