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Post by sharksrog on Nov 19, 2012 19:26:22 GMT -5
As we speak, I'm watching MLB TV's "Prime Nine" listing their opinion of the top nine pitchers of all time. Statistically there have been some amazing seasons, as mentioned on the show.
First mentioned was that no one has ever equalled Bob Gibson's single-season 1.12 ERA in 1968 (The Year of the Pitcher). Also mentioned was Pedro Martinez's season in which his 1.74 ERA was more than THREE runs lower than the league average.
Mike McCormick and Tim Lincecum (Did I miss anyone else?) have won Cy Young Awards with the Giants. Juan Marichal and Gaylord are two of the best pitchers in the history of the game. The Giants' present rotation features four pitchers who have posted a 3.00 or lower ERA with the team.
They also have a reliever with a pitcher who has posted back-to-back-to-back ERA's of 2.18, 1.50 and 1.79 -- yet for most of that period wasn't considered his team's best reliever.
So my question is: Which pitching seasons have been the best in SF history?
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Post by rxmeister on Nov 20, 2012 9:12:54 GMT -5
If you're going to list them, you're going to see the name "Marichal" a lot if not ONLY! I think 1966 was the best of the best, as Juan was 25-6 with a 2.23 ERA, striking out 222 with only 36 walks. He also had 25 complete games! He also had about five or six years which were pretty close to that. Gaylord Perry never had a year approaching those, as he couldn't match Juan's impeccable control. His Cy Young season was with Cleveland. Mike McCormick had more good years with the Giants than I thought he had, but only one great one, and even then the walk numbers were way too high to compare with Marichal's years. As great as Tim Lincecum was in his Cy Young years, again, he did it with higher ERA's and walk numbers, and let's not even mention complete games!
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 20, 2012 9:57:43 GMT -5
If you're going to list them, you're going to see the name "Marichal" a lot if not ONLY! I think 1966 was the best of the best, as Juan was 25-6 with a 2.23 ERA, striking out 222 with only 36 walks. He also had 25 complete games! He also had about five or six years which were pretty close to that. Gaylord Perry never had a year approaching those, as he couldn't match Juan's impeccable control. His Cy Young season was with Cleveland. Mike McCormick had more good years with the Giants than I thought he had, but only one great one, and even then the walk numbers were way too high to compare with Marichal's years. As great as Tim Lincecum was in his Cy Young years, again, he did it with higher ERA's and walk numbers, and let's not even mention complete games!
---boly says---
As old as I am, I saw all of the ones Rog named. And for my money? I'll take Marichal over Tim in a heartbeat, and for all of the reasons Mark mentioned except CG.
Pitchers just aren't trained to do that.
For me, here's what puts Juan FAR about what Timmy has done.
1-K to BB ration 2-Consistantly LOWER ERAs. Yeah, the parks may be small, yeah the hitters better trained... but Tim only has to pitch 6, Juan pitched 9. Gimme Juan. 3-Hits to IP ration. 4-Juan NEVER had 'down' seasons, early or in the middle of his career, as Tim has had. He never had long boughts of control problems. Never went stretches like Timmy has, when people questioned his ability to pitch.
Perry was good, but he was NOT Marichal. Not even close.
McCormick's numbers look better on paper than he actually was. He wasn't a bad pitcher, but he wasn't great, either.
In his heyday, he was a #2 or #3 guy at best. That's it.
boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 20, 2012 10:43:05 GMT -5
No question Juan Marichal was a great pitcher and among the best of his peers. I was always led to believe that the best way to judge players from different eras is to compare them to their peers from the same era. Juan in my opinion was among the best, but never really quite the best in any season. Although you could make an argument for a few of his seasons.
In 2008-2009 Tim Lincecum was the best, no argument really. Infact if you compare the strikeouts to Juan's it's not even close. In both seasons Tim had a strikeout per 9 inn that was above 10. Juan's so/9 never even came close to 10 in any of his seasons. Tim actually gave up less homeruns per 9, and they were equal in hits per 9 for that season. Of Juan's 25 complete games, only 4 were shutouts, neither stat led the league. Tim had 2 shutouts in 2009 which led the league, If given the oppertunity to complete 25 games he'd likely have had more than 4 shutouts.
While I agree that a number of Juan's seasons would flood the list, Tim's 2008-2009 seasons would have to be among them.
Jason Schmidt's 2003 would also be among them.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 20, 2012 12:10:42 GMT -5
Lots of great comments on this topic -- better even than I expected.
Some thoughts I have:
Marichal was indeed the best pitcher in SF Giants history -- by a lot at this point. Juan had consecutive ERA's of 2.41, 2.48, 2.13, 2.23, 2.76, 2.43 and a league-leading 2.10. The game was clearly lower-scoring back then, but that is still a spectacular run.
Any yet, catch this, Juan received one -- that's right, one -- Cy Young vote in his career, and that was a third-place vote. The Roseboro incident may have played a part in that.
Juan was a great control pitcher, but not a big strikeout guy like Lincecum and Schmidt. More like Matt Cain, which is still pretty good.
Lincecum and Schmidt clearly had three of the top SF pitching seasons. Tim won the Cy Young in 2008 and 2009, and Schmidt finished 2nd in 2003 and 4th in 2004. With a 2.34 ERA, a 186 ERA+ and a .95 WHIP in 2003, Jason could easily have won the award, but finished 2nd to Eric Gagne's 55 saves and 1.20 ERA.
Mike McCormick DID win the award back in 1967 -- although he shouldn't have. They valued pitchers' wins far more back then, so McCormick's 22-10 record and 118 ERA+ beat out Jim Bunning's 17-15 record and 149 ERA+. Bunning also lead the league with 40 starts and pitched 40 more innings than McCormick.
Mike's 2.84 ERA wasn't even the best on the Giants, trailing Marichal's 2.76.
It is safe to say Mike's teammates won that award for him. His 4.43 run support was nearly half a run more than Bunning's 3.94.
Ron Bryant is another Giants southpaw who had one good but overrated season. In 1973 he went 24-12 to finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting. Bryant's 3.53 ERA was just OK, and his 1.32 WHIP shows how lucky he was. Again, 4.61 runs of support came in rather handy.
Billy Swift truly did have a fine season in 1993, finishing 2nd in the Cy voting with a 21-8 record, 2.80 ERA and 1.07 WHIP. John Burkett led the league with 22 wins that season, but his ERA was 3.65.
In a shocking development, Burkett had 5.54 runs of support that season.
To show how important won-loss used to be in the Cy voting, Russ Ortiz finished 4th in the voting because of his 21-7 record the year after he was traded from the Giants. Russ's ERA was 3.81. But in yet another shocker, Russ's run support was 5.95 runs. Who did he think he was -- Kirk Rueter?
Swinging back to Marichal, he pitched in an era of great pitchers, he no doubt suffered from the Roseboro incident -- but ONE Cy Young vote, and only a 3rd-placed vote at that? Juan was somewhat underrated in much the same way (and at a cleary higher level) as Matt Cain is today.
Marichal didn't make the Hall of Fame until his 2nd year of eligibility.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 21, 2012 14:52:53 GMT -5
Marichal didn't make the Hall of Fame until his 2nd year of eligibility.
---bolysays---
And THAT was flat out wrong!
There are dozens of pitchers in the hall of fame, Sutton among them, that couldn't hold the provebial candle to Marichal.
At his BEST, Sutton was a #2 or 3 starter.
Same with Phil Niekro.
Now I don't know if either was a first ballot kind of guy, but to NOT elect Juan on the first ballot tells me that many (most?) writers were more concerned about the Roseburo incident than how good he really, really was.
And, early on in his career, he WAS a big strike out guy.
Look it up. He averaged from 6.5 to 7.4 K's/ip from 1963-1967.
Now for sure, Timmy fanned more, but that's not the point.
In his own words, around 1968, Juan realized he DIDN'T need to strikeout everyone. He just needed to 'get them out.'
Which he did.
The fact that he had such great control, so many ways to GET HITTERS OUT, in my mind, makes him a much better pitcher.
But if you ONLY want to take a tiny sample, 2 years by Tim, one by Schmidt, then both were better.
For me, Juan was better for much longer.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 21, 2012 16:03:25 GMT -5
Rog -- Marichal didn't make the Hall of Fame until his 2nd year of eligibility. ---bolysays--- And THAT was flat out wrong! Rog -- And I was able to tell that to Juan when he attended the 1982 opener. I called it an "injustice." The classy guy that he is, Juan didn't say a word. Speaking of "meeting" a Spanish-speaking Giants player, you should really get a kick out of this rather embarrassing story, Boly. My son and I were attending a Giants game 20 or more years ago. The Giants announced that Orlando Cepeda was attending the game, just as Orlando himself was walking around Candlestick on his way out. I told my son something like, "That's Orlando Cepeda. He was a great Giant. Let's see if we can catch him." Well, there was quite a throng following Orlando out, so the best my son and I could do was get about a section behind him. As he was about to head up to leave the stadium, I realized we wouldn't be able to catch him. I wanted my son to be able to see his face, so desperate measures were called for. I yelled out "Peruchin," meaning "Baby Bull," and one of Orlando's nicknames. Orlando's dad was quite a player in Puerto, and was nicknamed "Peruch," the "Bull." Orlando turned around immediately. Caught up in the moment, I yelled out, "Como esta?" Orlando replied in Spanish, and quickly exceeded my meager knowledge of the language. I should have said something in English, but instead I simply stood there with my tongue tied around my foot as I stuck it into my mouth. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#7624#ixzz2CtOAwGqa
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 21, 2012 16:09:50 GMT -5
Boly -- But if you ONLY want to take a tiny sample, 2 years by Tim, one by Schmidt, then both were better. Rog -- I think it was closer than you think. Timmy's ERA+ in 2008 and 2009 was 168 and 171. Jason's 2003 ERA+ was 180. Juan's was 169 in 1965, 167 in 1966, and 168 in 1969. Six years ago I boldly predicted Tim would become the best pitcher in SF Giants history. Unless Tim turns it around quickly and for a long time, I was flat-out wrong. Boly -- For me, Juan was better for much longer. Rog -- No question. And the ironic thing was that though during their time with the Giants, Juan was much better than Gaylord Perry, Gaylord's continued development and extended career put him in a position where some would say he was better than Juanito. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2CtS492AU
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 21, 2012 16:11:52 GMT -5
Boly -- The fact that he had such great control, so many ways to GET HITTERS OUT, in my mind, makes him a much better pitcher. Rog -- Juan was said to have five pitches (fastball, curve, slider, change up and screwball) which he threw from three different positons (over the top, three-quarters, and sidearm), making in effect 15 different pitches with which he could get you out. And the most beautiful leg kick in the history of the game. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2CtTck4UA
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 22, 2012 10:56:19 GMT -5
Boly -- The fact that he had such great control, so many ways to GET HITTERS OUT, in my mind, makes him a much better pitcher.
Rog -- Juan was said to have five pitches (fastball, curve, slider, change up and screwball) which he threw from three different positons (over the top, three-quarters, and sidearm), making in effect 15 different pitches with which he could get you out.
And the most beautiful leg kick in the history of the game.
---boly says---
Over the years, I've been blessed with the opportunity to have seen sooooooooooooo many good pitcher, pitch.
All of the great ones were outstanding, but some were more beautiful to watch than others.
At the top of my list are Koufax and Marichal; simply for the beauty of their deliveries and how accurate they were with all of their pitchers.
I enjoyed Gibson, and Drysdale and Bunning for other reasons... but for their sheer 'beauty' of their mechanics, those two are at the top of my list.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2012 12:46:11 GMT -5
The two Giants pitchers I have most enjoyed watching are Marichal and Tim Lincecum. Each had/have very different motions that were a sight to behold.
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Post by rxmeister on Nov 22, 2012 14:31:58 GMT -5
They used to say that Juan would be able to pitch into his forties because he'd have all that different pitches to use when he lost his fastball, but like most pitchers, he was done after losing his heater. Kind of makes what Barry Zito accomplished in the playoffs this season all the more impressive.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2012 14:56:10 GMT -5
Mark -- They used to say that Juan would be able to pitch into his forties because he'd have all that different pitches to use when he lost his fastball, but like most pitchers, he was done after losing his heater. Kind of makes what Barry Zito accomplished in the playoffs this season all the more impressive. Rog -- On Clubhouse Confidential yesterday they were showing the impact of a loss of one mph on the fastball. I believe it was about .20 of ERA. By the way, I think one can make pretty strong arguments that today's players are better than previous generations -- even though it seems the players of our youths were bigger than life. Let's start the argument with pitching. Today's batter face pitchers who throw faster. A correlation between speed and effectiveness exists. In additon, today's hitters face relief pitchers who are much better than the tiring starters of the past. This past season, relievers' ERA's were over half a run lower than starters -- and likely more than that lower than TIRING starters. So, we've got better pitchers for hitters to face. And yet they hit those pitchers BETTER than the hitters of our youths. And they hit them better despite much better fielding born of better positioning, more speed, stronger arms and better gloves. And they do so with bats that are made of arguably worse wood. So today's pitchers are better (faster speed and relief specialists). The hitters are better (because they still hit the better pitchers and better fielders). And the fielders are better because they have better gloves, are better-positioned and have more speed and arm strength. If the pitchers, hitters and fielders are better, it's pretty likely the game is better. By the way, I recently watched the 100 top plays of last season (which included Pablo's third home in his three-homer World Series game at #3 and Gregor Blanco's perfect game-saving grab at #6). Some of the defensive plays were amazing -- often plays we couldn't even have dreamed of about baseball in our youths. One play that particularly caught my attention came when one of the Uptons hit a ball in the hole. The shortstop fielded it going hard away from first base, and a dozen feet on the outfield grass. Back in the old days, a shortstop likely wouldn't even have made a throw against a fast runner. On this play, Upton was out -- and not by just a little. And think of all the catches made by outfielders leaping over the fence. We didn't used to see that very often. I may have been others, but the only such play I can remember from those days came when Bill Virdon leaped just over the top of the Candlestick fence to take a homer away from Willie Mays. Bigger, stronger, faster, better conditioned, better trained and better coached. How can today's game NOT be better? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#7649#ixzz2CywmWFrb
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donk
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Post by donk on Nov 22, 2012 14:59:03 GMT -5
Boly -- The fact that he had such great control, so many ways to GET HITTERS OUT, in my mind, makes him a much better pitcher. Rog -- Juan was said to have five pitches (fastball, curve, slider, change up and screwball) which he threw from three different positons (over the top, three-quarters, and sidearm), making in effect 15 different pitches with which he could get you out. And the most beautiful leg kick in the history of the game. dk...I'm having trouble with the "board" eating my answers, so I'll repeat.....Van Lingle Mungo had a very similar leg kick.....Van also had the record time for grabbing his clothes and jumping out the bedroom window when the husband came home early.(Spring Training in Puerto Rico)... ---boly says--- Over the years, I've been blessed with the opportunity to have seen sooooooooooooo many good pitcher, pitch. All of the great ones were outstanding, but some were more beautiful to watch than others. At the top of my list are Koufax and Marichal; simply for the beauty of their deliveries and how accurate they were with all of their pitchers. I enjoyed Gibson, and Drysdale and Bunning for other reasons... but for their sheer 'beauty' of their mechanics, those two are at the top of my list. dk...you would have loved King Carl Hubbell's delivery...smooth and easy.....Carl's 17 wins in a row(plus several saves) to close out the pennnant race in 1936 was unmatched...and he added 7 more in 1937 to start the Giants off to a repeat year..... boly
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donk
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Post by donk on Nov 22, 2012 15:29:25 GMT -5
Mark -- They used to say that Juan would be able to pitch into his forties because he'd have all that different pitches to use when he lost his fastball, but like most pitchers, he was done after losing his heater. Kind of makes what Barry Zito accomplished in the playoffs this season all the more impressive. Rog -- On Clubhouse Confidential yesterday they were showing the impact of a loss of one mph on the fastball. I believe it was about .20 of ERA. By the way, I think one can make pretty strong arguments that today's players are better than previous generations -- even though it seems the players of our youths were bigger than life. Let's start the argument with pitching. Today's batter face pitchers who throw faster. A correlation between speed and effectiveness exists. In additon, today's hitters face relief pitchers who are much better than the tiring starters of the past. This past season, relievers' ERA's were over half a run lower than starters -- and likely more than that lower than TIRING starters. So, we've got better pitchers for hitters to face. And yet they hit those pitchers BETTER than the hitters of our youths. And they hit them better despite much better fielding born of better positioning, more speed, stronger arms and better gloves. And they do so with bats that are made of arguably worse wood. So today's pitchers are better (faster speed and relief specialists). The hitters are better (because they still hit the better pitchers and better fielders). And the fielders are better because they have better gloves, are better-positioned and have more speed and arm strength. If the pitchers, hitters and fielders are better, it's pretty likely the game is better. By the way, I recently watched the 100 top plays of last season (which included Pablo's third home in his three-homer World Series game at #3 and Gregor Blanco's perfect game-saving grab at #6). Some of the defensive plays were amazing -- often plays we couldn't even have dreamed of about baseball in our youths. One play that particularly caught my attention came when one of the Uptons hit a ball in the hole. The shortstop fielded it going hard away from first base, and a dozen feet on the outfield grass. Back in the old days, a shortstop likely wouldn't even have made a throw against a fast runner. On this play, Upton was out -- and not by just a little. And think of all the catches made by outfielders leaping over the fence. We didn't used to see that very often. I may have been others, but the only such play I can remember from those days came when Bill Virdon leaped just over the top of the Candlestick fence to take a homer away from Willie Mays. Bigger, stronger, faster, better conditioned, better trained and better coached. How can today's game NOT be better? dk...once more you show how really deficient you are in watching the game of baseball....baseball is not a game of big is better...and todays athletes are not all that better conditioned than the players of my youth...and that was a looong time ago....since the makeup of the modern game is becoming heavy in foreign born players that were certaining not raised in the land of personal trainers and tutors...we have a variety of overweight and poorly conditioned players....does Ichiro look like what you describe as "the modern player"...looks more like the guy off the farm of baseball in the '30's....I have never seen so many players go on the DL in my 79 years of watching baseball....I have never seen so many players come up to the majors for a few games and then disappear...pitchers are not better because the pitch faster...batters are worse because they over swing on every thing...even with 2 strikes...batters used to choke up on the bat and put the ball in play....there have always been pitchers who could throw hard, but very few made the grade...just as today...only big difference, pitchers were once supposed to finish what they started.....and they held back a little on the fast ball for clutch situations...and then they would sometimes use the fast ball to set up another "out" pitch....I can't believe someonecould say that old time players couldn't throw out runners from the "hole"...too bad you didn't sit besides me in the Polo Grounds in the '40's when Stugeon and Stringer, Cubs middle infielders, made more great plays in one day than you would see in a month on some teams....outfield catches??? The greatest I ever saw was the catch Mel Ott made on Dolph Camilli in the Giants bull pen...440', over the bench and against the concrete wall....and he had to go further than Mays on his catch....and how many times did Pete Reiser challenge those concrete walls to make great catches before the wall won the war??? The walls got padded, the fields are smoother, and the gloves are bigger...but the player's hearts and skills are still not any better.... Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#7649#ixzz2CywmWFrb
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 23, 2012 13:12:00 GMT -5
The two Giants pitchers I have most enjoyed watching are Marichal and Tim Lincecum. Each had/have very different motions that were a sight to behold.
---boly says---
Rog, the choice of Marichal I understand. But Tim?
Juan turned in year after year after year after year of really good seasons.
Timmy? 2008-2009, and marginally, 2011. That's what I find so surprising. After 2009... he has been consistantly inconsistant.
To me, after 2009, it was laborious to watch him fight his control, fight his mechanics, fight location.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 23, 2012 13:13:26 GMT -5
They used to say that Juan would be able to pitch into his forties because he'd have all that different pitches to use when he lost his fastball, but like most pitchers, he was done after losing his heater. Kind of makes what Barry Zito accomplished in the playoffs this season all the more impressive.
---boly says---
Mark, that's not really true.
Juan began to have arm problems late in his career. Rotator cuff? Who knows. That was unknown back then.
But it wasn't the loss of his fastball, I'm pretty sure of that.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2012 13:27:56 GMT -5
Rog -- Bigger, stronger, faster, better conditioned, better trained and better coached. How can today's game NOT be better? dk...once more you show how really deficient you are in watching the game of baseball....baseball is not a game of big is better... Rog -- Nor did I say it was, although I strongly implied that "Bigger, stronger, faster, better conditioned, better trained and better coached" was better. I take it you disagree? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#7653#ixzz2D4VM1tMS
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 23, 2012 13:30:56 GMT -5
Rog -- The two Giants pitchers I have most enjoyed watching are Marichal and Tim Lincecum. Each had/have very different motions that were a sight to behold. ---boly says--- Rog, the choice of Marichal I understand. But Tim? Juan turned in year after year after year after year of really good seasons. Timmy? 2008-2009, and marginally, 2011. That's what I find so surprising. After 2009... he has been consistantly inconsistant. To me, after 2009, it was laborious to watch him fight his control, fight his mechanics, fight location. Rog -- I wasn't referring to results, Boly; simply to aesthetics. I don't think I've EVER seen a pitching motion more exciting than Tim's. The very reasons to which you attribute his difficulty in repeating his motion are what make it so exciting -- all those moving parts. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2D4W7Swiu
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 24, 2012 10:50:22 GMT -5
Rog -- I wasn't referring to results, Boly; simply to aesthetics. I don't think I've EVER seen a pitching motion more exciting than Tim's. The very reasons to which you attribute his difficulty in repeating his motion are what make it so exciting -- all those moving parts. boly says----\ GAAAAAAAAAAA!!! All those moving parts! Do you realize what "all those moving parts" does to someone as "anal," and as "OCD" as me? I say again! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! If you find that exciting, you must love watching destruction derby! All those "moving(flying) parts as they crash! boly
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 24, 2012 12:44:24 GMT -5
GAAAAAAAAAAA!!! All those moving parts! Do you realize what "all those moving parts" does to someone as "anal," and as "OCD" as me? I say again! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! If you find that exciting, you must love watching destruction derby! All those "moving(flying) parts as they crash! boly Boagie- I don't know why you dislike Tim Lincecum so much. Boly. We normally see eye to eye on most topics, but with Lincecum we have completely different views. We don't win 2 championships without Lincecum. Juan had a great career and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but I'm not a big idividual achievement guy. I think what Tim and the Giants have done since Tim was called up in 2007 is greater than what Juan Marichal and his teams did. You say Marichal's mechanics are a thing of beauty, but yet Lincecum's is too many moving parts. Marichal had more moving parts than Tim does. I think that we have to stop and consider WHY we keep comparing this skinny kid that alot of teams passed on with "demolision derby" type mechanics to a Hall of Famer. Perhaps he's earned the comparison? Perhaps he hasn't earned the criticism yet after just one bad season?
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Post by rxmeister on Nov 25, 2012 8:12:12 GMT -5
I love Timmy, unlike Boly, but I do agree with Boly that he hasn't earned the right to be compared to Juan Marichal just yet. I realize comparing wins and complete games isn't valid because it's a different era, but some comparisons ARE valid, like control and ERA. Timmy absolutely has to bounce back to at least Cy Young type form for another FIVE seasons at least before he's in the same conversation as Juan Marichal. There's also a chance that 2013 is Tim's last year as a Giant, and if that happens, he'll never be in that conversation as far as I'm concerned. That isn't even a knock at Lincecum, it's an acknowledgement of how great Marichal was.
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 25, 2012 10:41:31 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't know why you dislike Tim Lincecum so much. Boly. We normally see eye to eye on most topics, but with Lincecum we have completely different views. We don't win 2 championships without Lincecum. Juan had a great career and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, but I'm not a big idividual achievement guy. I think what Tim and the Giants have done since Tim was called up in 2007 is greater than what Juan Marichal and his teams did.
You say Marichal's mechanics are a thing of beauty, but yet Lincecum's is too many moving parts. Marichal had more moving parts than Tim does.
I think that we have to stop and consider WHY we keep comparing this skinny kid that alot of teams passed on with "demolision derby" type mechanics to a Hall of Famer. Perhaps he's earned the comparison? Perhaps he hasn't earned the criticism yet after just one bad season?
---boly says---
Boagie: Trust me; believe me, I do NOT, repeat, do NOT dislike Tim. Far from it.
For a kid with the talent that Tim brought to the major leagues, he has:
1-frustrated me to the point of exhaustion 2-angered me with his inabilit/refusal(?) to refine his mechanics 3-both of the above for his INABILITY to control the strike zone.
He flat out has too much talent to not have gotten better with his command.
Dislike? Absolutely not.
And you're right; without Tim, we don't win in 2010, nor 2012.
But... what he did DURING the 2012 season we could have gotten from virtually any 5th starter.
As to his mechanics and those of Marichal, consider:
Way back when, Marc sent me video and photos of Tim before he got called up. He asked for my evaluation, and what I said then, is no different than what I've been saying since.
His stride is too long, and THAT, as much as anything is the cause of his problems. It is with that stride that all of his mechanical problems begin, IMHO.
Marichal had the high leg kick, but that, in and of itself does NOT constitute more moving parts.
Go back and look at the way pitchers maintained balance during that era. They all, in one form or another, kicked their leg "out" similar to what that goofy guy from Cincinati does.
Marichal-
1-short stride allowed him to 'get on top' of all his pitches, thus pitching 'down hill.'
2-the take away of the arm was straight down, no excess, wasted motion, and into the pitch
3-that short stride allowed him to vary his arm angle in his delivery.\
4-great drive off the right leg. This, Timmy does well, too.
5-The short stride allows him to really "pull down" on that breaking ball, making the pitch very consistant.
Lincecum
1-Long stride, can't always get on top, and as he continues to rack up innings, this will get harder and hard to do causing consistancy problems in the strike zone.
(Sound familiar? 2011, 2012)
2-During his take away, the right arm goes down, wraps around the buttocks TOWARDS the hitter, and then comes up. THAT is excess moving parts.
Thus, because of that wrap around, because of that ridiculously long stride, he struggles to keep all those 'moving parts' in sync.
So what it really comes down to is this; yes, every pitcher has a lot of moving parts, but those TWO that Tim does cause delivery consistancy problems.
When I first got to college the FIRST THING they had me do, (a breaking ball -control) pitcher was SHORTEN MY STRIDE to accentuate the break.
It's a matter of geometry and physics. Tim is defying both, and that, I contend, is at the heart of his difficulties.
boly
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Post by klaiggeb on Nov 25, 2012 10:43:30 GMT -5
I love Timmy, unlike Boly, but I do agree with Boly that he hasn't earned the right to be compared to Juan Marichal just yet. I realize comparing wins and complete games isn't valid because it's a different era, but some comparisons ARE valid, like control and ERA. Timmy absolutely has to bounce back to at least Cy Young type form for another FIVE seasons at least before he's in the same conversation as Juan Marichal. There's also a chance that 2013 is Tim's last year as a Giant, and if that happens, he'll never be in that conversation as far as I'm concerned. That isn't even a knock at Lincecum, it's an acknowledgement of how great Marichal was.
---boly says---
Mark, once again, great analysis.
Please, I hope you read the post AFTER yours; I don't hate Tim.
All I ever did was be honest; honest like a coach.
As to Juan and Tim. You are so, so right! Tim MUST put up 5 straight years to be in the same conversation as Juan.
Two years and two Cy Youngs don't make it.
boly
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 26, 2012 16:33:59 GMT -5
Boagie- I don't know why you dislike Tim Lincecum so much. Boly. Rog -- Again, Boly is more than capable of speaking for himself. But despite my previous egregious errors, Boly and I have become good friends -- and I have a much better understanding of him than I used to. (Believe it or not, I always had a great deal of RESPECT for him, even if I didn't treat him that way.) Boly LIKES Tim (How could one not like a two-time Cy Young Award winner), but he knows a lot about pitching mechanics and has long been very concerned by what he sees as big mechanical flaws in Tim's delivery. Boly has been saying all along it would catch up with Tim, and certainly last season it did so in spades. Boly has some character issues with Tim, and he has big time mechanical issues. Boly is simply speaking from his heart. He's a very emotional guy -- and most of that is in a good way. I don't necessarily agree with him, but after last season who am I to call him wrong? Boly would LIKE not to worry so much. He would LIKE not to see things in Tim's mechanics that the rest of us aren't equipped to see. But Boly is Boly -- and that is pretty darn good! Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#7672#ixzz2DMmezmvF
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 26, 2012 16:39:06 GMT -5
Mark -- I love Timmy, unlike Boly, but I do agree with Boly that he hasn't earned the right to be compared to Juan Marichal just yet. Rog -- By winning Cy Young Awards in each of his first two full seasons, Tim showed he had the potential to be in a league with Juanito. But Tim declined in 2010, suffering through an unbelievably bad August that, sadly, portended most of his season last year. Despite again posting a sub-3.00 ERA in 2011, Tim declined again. That is why Allen and others recommended trading him, which would have been the perfect time to do so. At this point it seems unlikely that Tim will catch Juan (which I, frankly, expected him to do when Tim first came up). But in just five full seasons, Tim has already become one of the best pitchers in SF history. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2DMoOaeLi
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 27, 2012 12:52:12 GMT -5
---boly says---
Boagie: Trust me; believe me, I do NOT, repeat, do NOT dislike Tim. Far from it.
For a kid with the talent that Tim brought to the major leagues, he has:
1-frustrated me to the point of exhaustion 2-angered me with his inabilit/refusal(?) to refine his mechanics 3-both of the above for his INABILITY to control the strike zone.
He flat out has too much talent to not have gotten better with his command.
Dislike? Absolutely not.
And you're right; without Tim, we don't win in 2010, nor 2012.
But... what he did DURING the 2012 season we could have gotten from virtually any 5th starter.
As to his mechanics and those of Marichal, consider:
Way back when, Marc sent me video and photos of Tim before he got called up. He asked for my evaluation, and what I said then, is no different than what I've been saying since.
His stride is too long, and THAT, as much as anything is the cause of his problems. It is with that stride that all of his mechanical problems begin, IMHO.
Marichal had the high leg kick, but that, in and of itself does NOT constitute more moving parts.
Go back and look at the way pitchers maintained balance during that era. They all, in one form or another, kicked their leg "out" similar to what that goofy guy from Cincinati does.
Marichal-
1-short stride allowed him to 'get on top' of all his pitches, thus pitching 'down hill.'
2-the take away of the arm was straight down, no excess, wasted motion, and into the pitch
3-that short stride allowed him to vary his arm angle in his delivery.\
4-great drive off the right leg. This, Timmy does well, too.
5-The short stride allows him to really "pull down" on that breaking ball, making the pitch very consistant.
Lincecum
1-Long stride, can't always get on top, and as he continues to rack up innings, this will get harder and hard to do causing consistancy problems in the strike zone.
(Sound familiar? 2011, 2012)
2-During his take away, the right arm goes down, wraps around the buttocks TOWARDS the hitter, and then comes up. THAT is excess moving parts.
Thus, because of that wrap around, because of that ridiculously long stride, he struggles to keep all those 'moving parts' in sync.
So what it really comes down to is this; yes, every pitcher has a lot of moving parts, but those TWO that Tim does cause delivery consistancy problems.
When I first got to college the FIRST THING they had me do, (a breaking ball -control) pitcher was SHORTEN MY STRIDE to accentuate the break.
It's a matter of geometry and physics. Tim is defying both, and that, I contend, is at the heart of his difficulties.
boly
Boagie- I apologize for assuming you don't like Tim, Boly.
You said one thing in your post that really stuck out to me, and I believe you're right. You said "He flat out has too much talent to not have gotten better with his command." That's very true. You'd think he'd have figured it out by now. But let's not forget he still has time to do so. I believe most pitchers end up switching from being a thrower to being a pitcher in their early 30's. I think Tim tried to do that too early. In the 2010 season I believe he tried to pitch more to contact..either that or batters were just making more contact. But his velocity did drop that year, which tells me he did try to limit his pitch count to pitch deeper into games. I only say this because Matt Cain did the same thing, which tells me that's Righetti and Bochy's plan. Can Lincecum do that? I don't think that's the type of pitcher he is...yet. What makes Timmy good IS that long stride, the fact that batters have to cheat a little bit on his fastball because that long stride makes his release point closer to the plate than your average pitcher. Which makes that changeup impossible to square up if you're expecting anything else.
Another thing that has occured to me...and probably many others..Timmy didn't start having noticeable trouble until Bengie Molina was traded. Bengie caught Timmy during the two Cy Young years. Tim's worst month in 2010 was August of 2010, a month after Molina was traded and he hasn't had the same consistency since. I love Buster, but perhaps his way of calling games doesn't work for Tim. Tim's out pitch has been the changeup-splitter in the dirt, or just barely above hitting dirt, Posey often likes to work up in the zone for that out pitch. It's also noticeable that since that period of time Matt Cain has been the better pitcher and he's always been a guy who's been able to blow fastballs by people up in the zone. Perhaps Posey's style of catching works well for Cain, but not for Timmy.
Maybe bringing Molina in as a roving instructoir would benefit Tim and Posey's catching of Tim behind the plate. I'm not saying Posey's way of catching is wrong, it obviously works well for Vogelsong, Cain, Bumgarner and even after all the questions swirling around the idea that Zito didn't like to throw to Posey, Posey ended up catching the game of Zito's career. But maybe for Tim only a certain game plan works. As I remember Tim never shook off Molina, I think they were always on the same page.
Just so I make myself clear, I'm not knocking Posey's catching ability, I'm knocking Lincecum's failure in adapting to Posey. But, perhaps that experiment is over and we need to just focus on what's best for Lincecum to succeed.
By the way, Boly. Eventhough we don't necessarily agree on this topic, I think you do have a valid point about too many moving part. Unfortunately for Tim, I believe that's the only way he'll be an elite pitcher at the major league level. And, no offense, but if you look at the full pitcure, you've only been right for a season, and wrong for 4 seasons and 2 post seasons.
As for Marichal, he does has a shorter stride than Lincecum, but his hands are far more busy. I looked at footage since I never saw Marichal pitch in person. When Marichal was pitching out of the windup, he stepped back, brought his hands over his head, brought them both back to his chest then swung his pitching arm way back behind him bringing the ball below his knee, then around his back over his shoulder and to the plate. Juan's motion is more fluid and pretty looking, but imo his arms move much more than Lincecum's. I think if Juan were on the team now and had an lousy era last year you'd likely be blaming that on his moving parts.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 27, 2012 22:01:19 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 28, 2012 0:32:08 GMT -5
Boagie -- But his velocity did drop that year, which tells me he did try to limit his pitch count to pitch deeper into games. Rog -- I think Tim just flat-out lost velocity in 2010. If we want to look back, the first quarter of the season he was phenomenal. Then he slumped in mid and late May, bounced back in June and July (his first two months with Buster Posey as his catcher), then had an August that we never thought would be negatively exceeded. I don't believe his velocity was down that much early in the season, but it did fall off later. And I don't think it was to acquire better command. As much as anything, I think he tired. Then suddenly he outdueled Jimenez on September 1st and was phenomenal all the way through November 1st, when he won the deciding game of the World Series. I hadn't realized it until just now,but his great recovery streak spread over precisely two months from beginning to end. In 2011 his speed bounced back above its 2010 level, but this season it dropped off well below 2010. By the way, for those who don't think statistical analysis has any value, statistical analysis said the Giants should trade Tim last winter. Few Giants fans would have made that recommendation. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2DTzLuLEX
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 28, 2012 0:36:53 GMT -5
Boagie -- I love Buster, but perhaps his way of calling games doesn't work for Tim. Rog -- Worked pretty darn well until this year, when no one's way of calling games worked for Tim. I haven't calculated it, but I'll bet if we take all Buster's catching of Tim this season including the postseason, it was right there with Hector Sanchez's -- maybe even better. Boagie -- Tim's out pitch has been the changeup-splitter in the dirt, or just barely above hitting dirt, Posey often likes to work up in the zone for that out pitch. Rog -- So does Hector. Keep in mind that they like to throw the fastball up, hoping that the batter will go out of the zone to chase it. But it not, they have changed sight lines, setting up that pitch in the dirt. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2DUbQEhis
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