|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 28, 2012 7:30:10 GMT -5
Boly -- As I remember Tim never shook off Molina, I think they were always on the same page. Rog -- Indeed Tim didn't shake off Bengie nearly as much, and indeed he did like Bengie a lot, but I think part of the reason he shakes off both Buster and Hector more now may be twofold: First, he's more confident now after his early success and feels more comfortable calling his own pitches. Second, he struggled badly last season, which may have made him feel even more pressured to call his own offerings. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=1#ixzz2DWHevWoP |
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Nov 28, 2012 9:36:19 GMT -5
As for Marichal, he does has a shorter stride than Lincecum, but his hands are far more busy. I looked at footage since I never saw Marichal pitch in person. When Marichal was pitching out of the windup, he stepped back, brought his hands over his head, brought them both back to his chest then swung his pitching arm way back behind him bringing the ball below his knee, then around his back over his shoulder and to the plate. Juan's motion is more fluid and pretty looking, but imo his arms move much more than Lincecum's. I think if Juan were on the team now and had an lousy era last year you'd likely be blaming that on his moving parts
---boly says---
Boagie, I disagree. Remember, it's not the movement of the hands that I question with Tim; it's what he does with them.
The only hand that really matters is the one attached to the right arm. Juan's delivery, really, other than the kick, was simple. Watch his right arm, down, back, NO wasted movement, and up to his release point.
Now compare that to what I said about Tim.
Arm down, wraps around his buttocks, and moves towards homeplate BEFORE it comes up towards his release point.
That's wasted, excess moving parts because it requires timing that gets harder and harder to keep in sync with the stride, the hips opening, getting the arm to the right slot and the release point.
Having seen both... a lot, and having done a lot of pitching and the coaching of pitching, the motion, delivery, and release are things I really have used and studied so I could teach them.
That's what I base my opinion on.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 28, 2012 11:41:37 GMT -5
Boagie -- I love Buster, but perhaps his way of calling games doesn't work for Tim.
Rog -- Worked pretty darn well until this year, when no one's way of calling games worked for Tim. I haven't calculated it, but I'll bet if we take all Buster's catching of Tim this season including the postseason, it was right there with Hector Sanchez's -- maybe even better.
Boagie- I was comparing the way Molina and Posey called games for Timmy, not Posey and Sanchez. Posey has done a fine job, so has Sanchez, but to me, Molina and Timmy clicked better. I even recall hearing that Timmy had made a call to Molina at some point over the past 2 years to get some advice.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 28, 2012 14:16:22 GMT -5
Boagie -- Posey has done a fine job, so has Sanchez, but to me, Molina and Timmy clicked better. I even recall hearing that Timmy had made a call to Molina at some point over the past 2 years to get some advice. Rog -- Good points here. I think Tim made that call this past season. And I do know that Tim likes Bengie. That said, Tim's 2010 problems actually began in May when Bengie was catching him. Tim pitched about as well to Buster that season and postseason that year even with the horrible August. The last time Bengie caught Lincecum, Tim gave up four earned runs in a career-short 3.0 innings. I think either something changed between Tim and Buster or (more likely IMO), Tim just needed to make changes this past season, and thus left Buster. When Tim went back to Buster this postseason, he yielded only one run. Pitching to Hector Sanchez as a starter, he got hit around pretty well. I think the whole thing is overblown, probably stemming from Tim needing to do SOMETHING to break out of last season's slump. He did pitch some good games to Hector, but ironically he pitched better to Buster during the season and postseason than he pitched to Hector. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7708#ixzz2DXs6ccZT |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Nov 28, 2012 14:29:28 GMT -5
The long stride Tim uses is self defeating....with his dragging his right foot off the rubber as he strides before he goes into his throwing motion...and putting his left foot in the "bucket" all this subtracts from the force generated by his screwed up mechanics....go back to basics...face the batter square, take your stride the same time time as you go into your throwing motion, keep your foot in touch with the rubber to give added force and balance...and don't drag your right foot...and face the batter as you complete your release so that you are not ducking every time the pitch is hit...I think there is a mental problem as Tim is afraid of getting hit by a batted ball.....again....and stop being a junk baller...even his lower mph fastball is good enough if it hits the right spot....
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2012 1:25:17 GMT -5
Don -- The long stride Tim uses is self defeating. Rog -- We have no idea whether this is true or not. The one thing we do know about Tim is that flexibility is his best attribute. And we know that his long stride takes advantage of that flexibility. Whether the long stride helps him or hurts him is an unknown. That he has been quite successful overall with the long stride likely tilts the odds against his being as effective with more orthodox, but by no means does it eliminate the possiblity that is indeed the case. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7718#ixzz2DaeToVOu |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2012 1:33:36 GMT -5
Don -- I think there is a mental problem as Tim is afraid of getting hit by a batted ball.....again.... Rog -- And once again you could be right. But Tim was hit in the head in the summer of 2005, and one might say that mental problem -- if it exists -- didn't materialize itself until this past summer. You did say you THINK that is a problem, and as I mentioned, you could be right. The facts don't seem to indicate it though. One might argue that it was when Tim was hit in the major leagues on August 12, 2008 that the problem re-materialized. Except that Tim lowered his ERA from that point on in what was his first Cy Young season and he went on to win another in 2009. One would also be argruing in the face of the fact that in 2010 and 2011 combined, Tim's ERA was only a bit above three. If one could point to an incident around the beginning of the 2012 season that would have increased any mental problem Tim had that was brought on by being hit by a line drive, he would have a decent argument. The facts don't seem to support such an argument. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#ixzz2DafBDNGM |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2012 1:40:40 GMT -5
Don -- and stop being a junk baller...even his lower mph fastball is good enough if it hits the right spot.... Rog -- I don't think you're entirely wrong here, but it was after his first Cy Young season that Tim significantly reduced his percentage of fastballs. He dropped from 66.1% to 55.9%, a drop of just over 10%. Tim, of course, went on to win his 2nd Cy Young Award that season. Since 2009 his fastball usage has dropped by a little over 1% per season. His fastball usage drop in 2012 was only .8% -- far less than the drop from 2008 to 2009, and less even than the drop from 2009 to 2010 or from 2010 to 2011. Again, I don't totally disagree with you. Your concept makes sense. But if the drop in Tim's fastball usage was the problem, one would have assumed it would have manifested itself in a big way with the drop from 66.1% in 2008 to 55.9% in 2009. Instead, Tim went on to win his 2nd Cy Young Award. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#ixzz2DahEY0Tg |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Nov 29, 2012 13:31:32 GMT -5
Tim has always ducked on balls hit hard....and he has been injured more than the two times mentionrd....a good indicator that he is off balence after he delivers the ball....as far as his success in the first year he stopped throwing a high % of fast balls...no one ever gave baseball hitters credit for being big on brains...they continued to look for the fastball and were victims of the junk.....as you might remember, I kept saying batters should sit on his slow stuff because he wasn't g etting his fast ball over the plate..I also wrote what Robin Roberts wrote.."Pitchers who throw a lot of slow stuff lose velocity from their fastball"..and the same lack of the thought process made Zito open for slaughter when he almost refused to throw his fast (?) ball inside to set up his curve...something I called for since his day 1 in SF.....and he st arted to do more of when Sanchez caught him...
|
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Nov 29, 2012 13:42:09 GMT -5
can't find how to create new thread.....need help....
|
|
|
|
Post by Islandboagie on Nov 29, 2012 14:00:54 GMT -5
It's on the top right side when you're on the S.F Giants board with all the thread titles.
|
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Nov 29, 2012 15:15:22 GMT -5
I still haven't found ...new thread...where I used to find it....I tried reply, and deleted subject
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Nov 30, 2012 10:48:39 GMT -5
Don -- The long stride Tim uses is self defeating.
Rog -- We have no idea whether this is true or not.
--boly says---
Rog, with all due respect, if a person has pitched at the high school level or above, then they would know for sure that what Don says about that stride, and what I have been saying about that long stride are absolutely true.
again, and with all due respect, people who have not pitched at a high level, and have not studied pitching, simply don't understand.
Go out and pitch with a coach. Go through the windup, and throw the ball.
Now, do it with an over exaggerated, long stride.
now shorten that stride and watch the movement on the ball.
Flexibility is essential in pitching. But it does NOT compensate for the physics of the release point. It is simply does not.
Don is right.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by klaiggeb on Nov 30, 2012 10:55:42 GMT -5
I still haven't found ...new thread...where I used to find it....I tried reply, and deleted subject
---boly says----
Don: Click on "home" at the top of the page.
On the NEXT page, in the upper 1/3 of the page, on the left side, click on the folder that says "SF Giants."
On the next screen, right side, 1/3 of the way down you'll see "Mark as Read," and then New Thread."
Click on "New Thread," and after you type your message, click on "post" as you would normally do.
boly
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 30, 2012 11:57:21 GMT -5
Don -- Tim has always ducked on balls hit hard.... Rog -- He tends to duck on balls he thinks are more likely to be hit up the middle, not on all balls that are hit hard. Don -- and he has been injured more than the two times mentionrd. Rog -- Fine. Tell us about them. The only two times I know of where he had to leave the game were in the Cape Cod League and on August 10, 2008 against the Astros. You wouldn't mind listing the rest of them, would you? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7729#ixzz2Dj3fLXlr |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 30, 2012 12:04:16 GMT -5
Don -- as far as his success in the first year he stopped throwing a high % of fast balls. Rog -- According to Fan Graphs, Tim's percentage of fastballs declined by only 0.8% from his first season to his second. Nonetheless, he managed to win the Cy Young Award in his 2nd season. The big drop was a 10.2% drop from his 2nd season to his 3rd. What are the facts that back up what you said? By the way, Tim went through three changes in strategy from 2006 when he was drafted to 2009 when he won his 2nd Cy Young. In 2007 he added the change up (no matter that Mike Krukow says to the contrary). In 2008, he added the slider. In 2009, he significantly cut his percentage of fastballs thrown. Those are facts. What did you see that indicated otherwise? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#ixzz2Dj4uyuzv |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 30, 2012 12:06:21 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 30, 2012 12:27:17 GMT -5
Don -- and the same lack of the thought process made Zito open for slaughter when he almost refused to throw his fast (?) ball inside to set up his curve... Rog -- You are right, of course. With most batters it's hard stuff up and in; slow stuff low and away. In Tim's case it has been tough to accomplish that, since his two-seemer tends to sail up and in. Often when his pitch DOES wind up high and inside, the target was low and outside. Don -- something I called for since his day 1 in SF..... Rog -- It didn't take you long to get that BFO (brilliant flash of the obvious), did it? Don -- and he st arted to do more of when Sanchez caught him... Rog -- If Tim would pitch better by throwing inside more often and he did so more when Sanchez caught him, he would have pitched better last season to Sanchez than to Tim, right? In reality, Tim's pitching to the two yielded an ERA within two points of each other. Worse, for your argument, Tim actually pitched BETTER to Buster than to Hector after Hector became Tim's primary catcher. In order for your statements both to be true, Tim would have had to pitch better to Hector than to Tim -- and that didn't happen. One of your two statements appears not to be true. If both were true, Tim would have pitched better to Hector than to Tim. Right? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#ixzz2Dj79nyGW |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Nov 30, 2012 12:34:50 GMT -5
Boly -- Rog, with all due respect, if a person has pitched at the high school level or above, then they would know for sure that what Don says about that stride, and what I have been saying about that long stride are absolutely true. Rog -- I do understand what you're saying here, Boly. I don't disagree with you. What I do believe is that there are exceptions. For instance, batters hit better by swinging at balls in the strike zone than by swinging at balls out of the strike zone. The better pitches he swings at, the better he will hit. So would Pablo hit better if he swung at better pitches? We don't know the answer to that, since we don't know what other effects being less aggressive would have on Pablo. Likewise, we don't know if changing to what is generally a better mechanic would in fact improve Tim -- especially since he has spent his whole baseball life with the other mechanic. No one would recommend a hitter have Stan Musial's stance, but somehow Stan was still one of the best hitters ever. This last one isn't the best of examples, but I think it does help show what I'm talking about. I don't disagree with you on MOST pitchers, but I do have to wonder if shortening his stride considerably would help Tim. You know the old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it? If Tim doesn't pull out of his funk this season, I would suggest he make the change you're recommending. But with a career ERA of something around 3.40, I don't think we can yet say it is broke. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#ixzz2DjCV5c1w |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Nov 30, 2012 15:46:27 GMT -5
Don -- Tim has always ducked on balls hit hard.... Rog -- He tends to duck on balls he thinks are more likely to be hit up the middle, not on all balls that are hit hard. dk..I have watched Tim duck on balls hit to right field/....and others, besides... Don -- and he has been injured more than the two times mentionrd. Rog -- Fine. Tell us about them. The only two times I know of where he had to leave the game were in the Cape Cod League and on August 10, 2008 against the Astros. You wouldn't mind listing the rest of them, would you? dk...why so snotty??? There were at least 2 times last season that he got hit with batted balls...but I don't log every second of Tim's career....I'm sure your unmatched records have films of the Giants trainers coming out to tend to Tim....he didn't come out of the game, but he was hit... |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 1, 2012 0:13:27 GMT -5
Rog -- He tends to duck on balls he thinks are more likely to be hit up the middle, not on all balls that are hit hard. dk..I have watched Tim duck on balls hit to right field/....and others, besides... Rog -- You noticed, didn't you that I said that Tim ducks on balls that he THINKS are more likely to be hit up the middle -- almost always pitches toward the outside? I agree with your statement. It's just that you seem to be using it to argue that my statement was wrong. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7747#ixzz2Dm3XOIN8 |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 1, 2012 0:15:28 GMT -5
Rog -- Fine. Tell us about them. The only two times I know of where he had to leave the game were in the Cape Cod League and on August 10, 2008 against the Astros. You wouldn't mind listing the rest of them, would you? dk...why so snotty??? There were at least 2 times last season that he got hit with batted balls... Rog -- I wasn't being snotty. I was merely asking you to list the times Tim was hit with a ball and had to leave the game. That's still all I'm asking for. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#ixzz2Dm4DlcGF |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Dec 1, 2012 1:24:32 GMT -5
Rog -- Fine. Tell us about them. The only two times I know of where he had to leave the game were in the Cape Cod League and on August 10, 2008 against the Astros. You wouldn't mind listing the rest of them, would you? dk...why so snotty??? There were at least 2 times last season that he got hit with batted balls... Rog -- I wasn't being snotty. I was merely asking you to list the times Tim was hit with a ball and had to leave the game. That's still all I'm asking for. dk...and, as I said, I don't log every trip to the john that Tim takes...or how many times he gets hit by balls..... |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 1, 2012 9:54:01 GMT -5
dk...why so snotty??? There were at least 2 times last season that he got hit with batted balls... Rog -- I wasn't being snotty. I was merely asking you to list the times Tim was hit with a ball and had to leave the game. That's still all I'm asking for. dk...and, as I said, I don't log every trip to the john that Tim takes...or how many times he gets hit by balls..... Rog -- I wasn't asking you to keep a John log. I was merely asking you to document your statement that Tim implying that Tim had been hit with balls and had to leave more than two games. That's all. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7764#ixzz2DoPEBxMw |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Dec 1, 2012 12:43:39 GMT -5
no where did I say the Tim had to leave any game....I said I remember him getting hit with balls back to the mound......
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 2, 2012 8:24:46 GMT -5
Don -- no where did I say the Tim had to leave any game....I said I remember him getting hit with balls back to the mound.... Rog -- This exchange all started when you said "Tim has always ducked on balls hit hard ..." That just isn't true. I think it would benefit you to be more objective about Buster and Tim. We're talking about an MVP and a two-time Cy Young Award winner. And, sure, you can say I'm not objective about Tim. Then again, last winter I -- along with Allen -- recommended the Giants trade him. If I weren't objective about Tim, why would I suggest that? Your comments about those two guys are getting old and repetitive. They were already wrong in many cases. Bat Buster 7th against right-handers? You've GOT to be kidding. And, yeah, I remember you said this after Buster went 100 plate appearances with almost no power. Once again you made a foolish judgment based on a small sample. I hope you are honest enough to admit that was one of the bigger mistakes made here in the history of the board. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7780#ixzz2DtskmK6C |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Dec 2, 2012 18:55:13 GMT -5
and you very conveniently left out the fact I also said he could be returned to a spot higher in the order than 7th if he regained his power....and it wasn't just homers he stopped hitting, I think he only had 2 doubles..you have to be a complete nerd not to understand that batting orders are constantly changed, especially by Bochy...any recommendation of potential batting orders for the Giants are temporary at best....you complain about about small samples...you are the guy that will go back 5 years and use some ones A league stats to diss him....
|
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2012 0:36:38 GMT -5
Don -- and you very conveniently left out the fact I also said he could be returned to a spot higher in the order than 7th if he regained his power.... Rog -- I think the key word here is IF. Shouldn't you have been using the word WHEN? Don -- and it wasn't just homers he stopped hitting, I think he only had 2 doubles.. Rog -- You are correct. Although he was hitting for average, he went through a HORRIBLE power slump. But you have long underrated him, and were doing so then. Don -- you have to be a complete nerd not to understand that batting orders are constantly changed, especially by Bochy... Rog -- What's not to understand? Don -- any recommendation of potential batting orders for the Giants are temporary at best.... Rog -- Yet Buster took over cleanup in 2010 and -- despite your thoughts on the matter -- has kept it every since. Don -- you complain about about small samples...you are the guy that will go back 5 years and use some ones A league stats to diss him.... Rog -- I don't believe I did that to Buster. What I have done is go back to his COLLEGE stats to give an idea of what he might do. As I mentioned before, Don, when you said Buster should bat 7th against right-handers, you were either dead wrong or had no vision. 7th? A future MVP? What were you THINKING? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7793#ixzz2Dxoiqh9F |
|
donk
New Member
Posts: 23
|
Post by donk on Dec 3, 2012 0:53:09 GMT -5
Re: Best SF Pitching Seasons « Reply #57 Today at 12:36am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- and you very conveniently left out the fact I also said he could be returned to a spot higher in the order than 7th if he regained his power.... Rog -- I think the key word here is IF. Shouldn't you have been using the word WHEN? Don -- and it wasn't just homers he stopped hitting, I think he only had 2 doubles.. Rog -- You are correct. Although he was hitting for average, he went through a HORRIBLE power slump. But you have long underrated him, and were doing so then. Don -- you have to be a complete nerd not to understand that batting orders are constantly changed, especially by Bochy... Rog -- What's not to understand? Don -- any recommendation of potential batting orders for the Giants are temporary at best.... Rog -- Yet Buster took over cleanup in 2010 and -- despite your thoughts on the matter -- has kept it every since. Don -- you complain about about small samples...you are the guy that will go back 5 years and use some ones A league stats to diss him.... Rog -- I don't believe I did that to Buster. What I have done is go back to his COLLEGE stats to give an idea of what he might do. As I mentioned before, Don, when you said Buster should bat 7th against right-handers, you were either dead wrong or had no vision. 7th? A future MVP? What were you THINKING? dk...yep, he will get into the HOF right after Tim gets in.......lets see how long he hits .300 and how long he remains a catcher...,...let's see if the league remembers how the Tigers pitched to him.... Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1367&page=2#7799#ixzz2Dxtkkc3G |
|
|
|
Post by sharksrog on Dec 3, 2012 12:59:03 GMT -5
|
|
