ARod

[allenreed]

Watching the Yankees-Red Sox game tonight. Pretty wild. ARod was thrown at (and hit) by Dempster in his first AB, causing Girardi to get ejected for arguing. Of course the Red Sox fans are booing the hell out of him every time he inhales.
Anyway, in the 6th ARod homers to straightaway center. He's trotting and they're booing the bejeezus out of him. I couldn't help but think of Major League II when Parkman hits one out, then stops between second and third and cups his hand behind his ear as the crowd is booing him. If I were ARod, I would have been very tempted.

[rxmeister]

ARod looks really good since coming back, which at his age and considering his injuries, makes me wonder if perhaps he's STILL on the juice! What a big FU that would be to MLB if he's still using PED's while all this grievance, appeals and law suit threats are going on. This is really crazy stuff. Now it looks like he'll be playing for the Yankees and suing them at the same time!

[allenreed]

If I'm the Yankees I suspend him without pay for conduct detrimental to the team. I'm really disappointed with my second team in this deal. Show some integrity and respect for the game.

[rxmeister]

Cashman was asked about ARod yesterday and said "no comment, because anything I say might be litigious." Yankees will let nature run its course here because they feel bad enough they have to pay him all this money over the next few years, they don't want to have to pay him more in a law suit.

[sfgdood]

My personal feeling is ARod is just playing as many games as he can until the appeal goes through and then he's going to be done. So if that's the case, why NOT juice it up until the end?

By the way...if I were getting booed as I was trotting, I'd have one flap down.

~Dood

[allenreed]

What a way to take incredible God given talent and turn youself into a joke and a disgrace. ARod, like Bonds, could have been one of the all time greats. Instead they're punch lines.

[Islandboagie]

Punchlines who have gobs of money...I think they're sleeping fine tonight. As are McGwire, Sosa, Rickey Henderson and the rest.

Teams need to start putting an opt out clause in contracts where they can choose to drop players if they get popped. Then they can sue that player for breach of contract. Thus, any team that wants to do the wrong thing and pick up that player will then be feeding payroll money into the team that chose to do the right thing. And in the end that player will be playing for almost nothing.

The players union would never go for this and teams likely wouldn't drop a key member of their team...but something like this is what would have to happen for the problem to go away for good.

[allenreed]

Don't the contracts have a morals clause? Wouldn't using illegal drugs be part of this? Seems I remember the Giants releasing Strawberry and Rick Leach when they were found to be using drugs.
Last we heard from Sosa he was trying to change his skin color. Do you really think these guys have peace of mind? I know I wouldn't, despite the money. We should be talking about Bonds and ARod in the same breath with Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Mantle and the rest of baseball's true legends. Instead, they're jokes, and bad jokes at that. And they could have made the money without cheating. If I were them, I would have a sick feeling that I was given a great gift and I blew it. (Of course, Mick felt that way too.) If I were Bonds or ARod, and people spoke of me as they do those two, after all I had accomplished in baseball, I would definitely have regrets.

[sfgdood]

A morals clause might indeed cover the use of illegal drugs if the CBA didn't already include a substance abuse policy...that overrides any specific clause in contracts. Strawberry and Leach came before the substance abuse policy became part of the CBA, I believe...although I could be wrong. In any event, the Giants likely had to pay their salaries after releasing them.

I do believe these guys have piece of mind. After all, Miguel Tejada just got a 105 game suspension for doing drugs that Mays, Aaron and probably Mantle did regularly.

~Dood

[allenreed]

Actually, I doubt that what Tejada took even existed in those days.

You may be right about the peace of mind thing though. People nowadays as a general rule have little integrity and almost no moral compass. Obviously these guys don't have them. You see it in our politicians as well. People like Spitzer, Weiner, the SD mayor, and of course our president, AG, and former Secretary of State.

[sfgdood]

the specific drug may have been different but amphetamines were rampant in the 60s and early 70s...greenies were the most common around MLB.

~Dood

[allenreed]

And you know this how? And how do you know Mays, Aaron, and Mantle took them? Why would you accuse people with no proof? Are you trying to justify the behavior of the modern player by pointing fingers and screaming "They did things too!"? It's like Don's constant attempts to justify Obama's sorry performance by complaing about Bush.
Also, if Mantle was taking amphetamines along with all the alcohol he was consuming, I'm not sure he would have been able to perform at all.

[sfgdood]

Dude, everyone was taking that stuff back in those days because there was no stigma about it then. Nobody got tested for it. Nobody even bothered to ask...it was pretty much accepted and perfectly acceptable. You think Mantle wouldnt take anything he could get his hands on to make his knees not ache? It hasnt been until recently when everyone got all freaked out about PEDs that everyone started to make it a bad thing. I'm not making any judgment about it one way or another...I'm just saying if you're going to hold those guys up as perfect and that they never tried to take anything to give them an edge, then you're naive as all hell.

~Dood

[rxmeister]

I've heard stories that Mays used to drink some kind of "red sticky juice" that was definitely amphetamines. It was legal and almost all the players drank it from what I've heard. There's no stigma to using a legal drug in my opinion. As to whether amphetamines should even be considered a PED is another question. It's very borderline.

[dk]

Aug 20, 2013 16:38:33 GMT -5 allenreed said:

And you know this how? And how do you know Mays, Aaron, and Mantle took them? Why would you accuse people with no proof? Are you trying to justify the behavior of the modern player by pointing fingers and screaming "They did things too!"? It's like Don's constant attempts to justify Obama's sorry performance by complaing about Bush.
Also, if Mantle was taking amphetamines along with all the alcohol he was consuming, I'm not sure he would have been able to perform at all

dk..Hank Aaron was quoted saying he used amphetamines....the only sorry thing about Obama's performances is the sick bigots in the Tea Bag party that oppose every thing Obama puts on the table including the TBP's own plans....and you have yet to admit that every claim that you echoed from the obese druggie was false when I showed you where to read the truth, but if you wanted the truth you wouldn't be a right wing nut...

[Islandboagie]

Higher gas prices, higher unemployment, soaring national debt, obamacare that's now proven to put a stranglehold on American businesses big and small. Numerous scandals, calling our law enforcement stupid, stoking the flames during racial tensions, creating a larger divide between both parties...yeah, just the right wing nuts being crazy...

[rxmeister]

Amazing how a discussion about PED's became a referendum on Obama. Just three more years, guys, then you can hate on President Hillary for the next eight.

[allenreed]

Dude, everyone was taking that stuff back in those days because there was no stigma about it then. Nobody got tested for it. Nobody even bothered to ask...it was pretty much accepted and perfectly acceptable.

Allen- And you know this how? Were you around back then. Did you see it? Was it in the papers? We're the suppliers identified and prosecuted? I was around then, and I don't remember hearing about it.
Not saying it didn't happen, but other than hearsay, where's the proof.


You think Mantle wouldnt take anything he could get his hands on to make his knees not ache?

Allen- Not sure how amphetamines would help that, though alcohol would. Amphetamines might help with a hangover, but mixing uppers and downers (alcohol) messes with your heart.

It hasnt been until recently when everyone got all freaked out about PEDs that everyone started to make it a bad thing. I'm not making any judgment about it one way or another...I'm just saying if you're going to hold those guys up as perfect and that they never tried to take anything to give them an edge, then you're naive as all hell.

Allen- Perfect? Mantle, perfect? Hardly. I'm just a little peeved at your blanket accusation. Everyone didn't take them, just like everyone doesn't take roids.

[allenreed]

Aug 20, 2013 21:13:50 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

Amazing how a discussion about PED's became a referendum on Obama. Just three more years, guys, then you can hate on President Hillary for the next eight.

Allen- Sad in itself. This is a person who was a total failure as Secretary of State, who lied to the face of the families of deceased Americans, and who stonewalled a Congressional investigation of what happened in Benghazi. And she's the frontrunner for 2016. How far we have fallen.

[allenreed]

Aug 20, 2013 18:26:41 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

I've heard stories that Mays used to drink some kind of "red sticky juice" that was definitely amphetamines. It was legal and almost all the players drank it from what I've heard. There's no stigma to using a legal drug in my opinion. As to whether amphetamines should even be considered a PED is another question. It's very borderline.

Allen- I have never heard about "red sticky juice', and I've probably read almost everything written about Mays. I doubt that all the players drank it, or news of it would be widespread by now. People would bring it up constantly to try to justify the aberrant behavior of today's players.

[allenreed]

As to whether amphetamines should even be considered a PED is another question. It's very borderline.

Allen- I read somewhere. (Jim Bouton's Ball Four) that amphetamines make you think you're doing better than you really are. I think the example he used was a pitcher would think he was throwing smoke when he really wasn't. Perhaps that was just his experience.

[allenreed]

dk..Hank Aaron was quoted saying he used amphetamines

Allen- I've never heard that. I'm surprised more hasn't been made of it, especially by the Bonds apologists.

....the only sorry thing about Obama's performances is the sick bigots in the Tea Bag party that oppose every thing Obama puts on the table including the TBP's own plans.

Allen- Don, if you want to enter into this discussion, post something that can be taken seriously.


...and you have yet to admit that every claim that you echoed from the obese druggie was false when I showed you where to read the truth, but if you wanted the truth you wouldn't be a right wing nut

Allen- Ah, name calling. That didn't take long. Don, you know nothing about the subject we're discussing here, and even less about me. All you can do (and have done) by discussing either is make a fool of yourself.

[sfgdood]

Allen- And you know this how? Were you around back then. Did you see it? Was it in the papers? We're the suppliers identified and prosecuted? I was around then, and I don't remember hearing about it.
Not saying it didn't happen, but other than hearsay, where's the proof.

Dood - I've heard multiple players talk about those days saying everyone was doing it and nobody cared, least of all the media. So why would anyone have heard about it back then? The media wouldnt report it even if they saw it. Back in those days the media protected ballplayers and celebs...unlike today when they pounce on them like wolves. In today's society it would have been front page news but back then nobody gave a rat's ass what drugs anyone was taking.




Allen- I'm just a little peeved at your blanket accusation. Everyone didn't take them, just like everyone doesn't take roids.

Dood - whatever. Yeah of course not 100% of players took them but you're kidding yourself if you think there wasnt a high percentage of players taking something illegal or on the current banned list.

~Dood

[rxmeister]

From the New York Times, "Willie Mays' locker was a source of red juice which contained amphetamines when he played for the 1973 New York Mets," testified John Milner in a federal cocaine trial. (The cocaine trial of baseball players including Keith Hernandez) Milner was testifying that players didn't receive amphetamines from the team, they received them from each other. Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines in his autobiography. Mickey Mantle used to use Dr. Max Jacobson, (who was nicknamed Dr. Feel Good) the same quack who treated JFK, and he reportedly shot both of them up repeatedly with an injection that included both amphetamines AND steroids! This stuff is all over the Internet, Allen, it's not hard to find. And amphetamines were legal back then, Allen. There was absolutely nothing wrong with your heroes using them!

[klaiggeb]

Dude, everyone was taking that stuff back in those days because there was no stigma about it then. Nobody got tested for it. Nobody even bothered to ask...it was pretty much accepted and perfectly acceptable. You think Mantle wouldnt take anything he could get his hands on to make his knees not ache?

---boly says----

Jim Bouton, in both of his books; "Ball Four," and "I'm Glad You Didn't Take it Personally" talked about many players using Greenies and other amphetamines.

boly

[dk]

Aug 21, 2013 7:39:50 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

From the New York Times, "Willie Mays' locker was a source of red juice which contained amphetamines when he played for the 1973 New York Mets," testified John Milner in a federal cocaine trial. (The cocaine trial of baseball players including Keith Hernandez) Milner was testifying that players didn't receive amphetamines from the team, they received them from each other. Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines in his autobiography. Mickey Mantle used to use Dr. Max Jacobson, (who was nicknamed Dr. Feel Good) the same quack who treated JFK, and he reportedly shot both of them up repeatedly with an injection that included both amphetamines AND steroids! This stuff is all over the Internet, Allen, it's not hard to find. And amphetamines were legal back then, Allen. There was absolutely nothing wrong with your heroes using them

dk...I took them in 1959 per a doctor's prescription...gave me a lot of energy, but didn't help my batting one bit......don't expect Allen to believe anything about Aaron until he hears it from the obese druggie....

[dk]

Aug 20, 2013 22:24:04 GMT -5 allenreed said:

dk..Hank Aaron was quoted saying he used amphetamines

Allen- I've never heard that. I'm surprised more hasn't been made of it, especially by the Bonds apologists.

....the only sorry thing about Obama's performances is the sick bigots in the Tea Bag party that oppose every thing Obama puts on the table including the TBP's own plans.

Allen- Don, if you want to enter into this discussion, post something that can be taken seriously.


...and you have yet to admit that every claim that you echoed from the obese druggie was false when I showed you where to read the truth, but if you wanted the truth you wouldn't be a right wing nut

Allen- Ah, name calling. That didn't take long. Don, you know nothing about the subject we're discussing here, and even less about me. All you can do (and have done) by discussing either is make a fool of yourself

dk...another falsehood put out by the local right wing nut...I know one heck a lot more about "upper/speed" than anyone here as I took those pills in the 1959/1961 time period while I was playing major league fast pitch soft ball in Rochester....name calling? just an adjective that fits the two of you.....

[allenreed]

From the New York Times, "Willie Mays' locker was a source of red juice which contained amphetamines when he played for the 1973 New York Mets," testified John Milner in a federal cocaine trial. (The cocaine trial of baseball players including Keith Hernandez) Milner was testifying that players didn't receive amphetamines from the team, they received them from each other. Hank Aaron admitted to using amphetamines in his autobiography. Mickey Mantle used to use Dr. Max Jacobson, (who was nicknamed Dr. Feel Good) the same quack who treated JFK, and he reportedly shot both of them up repeatedly with an injection that included both amphetamines AND steroids! This stuff is all over the Internet, Allen, it's not hard to find. And amphetamines were legal back then, Allen. There was absolutely nothing wrong with your heroes using them!

Allen- I'm not hands over ears in denial here, Mark. I'm not like Don with Obama. I just hadn't heard anything about it. I did hear about Jacobson, and how he infected Mantle's hip with a shot in 61, possibly costing him a shot at Ruth's record.
Were steroids even around back then? I do remember greenies being discussed in Bouton's book, but the only name I recall him mentioning was Pete Rose. Of course, it's been about 40 years since I read it.

[rxmeister]

Steroids have been around since around 1930, Allen, but I seriously doubt players were using them back then. Don't forget that there used to be a belief that being too muscular was a bad thing when it came to swinging the bat.

[allenreed]

As a pharmacist, I guess you would know. Who was using them back then, and for what? It's interesting. There wasn't anyone in the 50s and 60s who looked like Canseco, Bonds, or McGwire, but if you see pictures of Mays or Mantle with their shirts off, they're not exactly Don Knotts. Guys like Carl Furillo and Ted Kluzewski come to mind as well.