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DFA'd
Aug 8, 2013 13:07:57 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 8, 2013 13:07:57 GMT -5
By Cleveland: Mark Reynolds.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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DFA'd
Aug 8, 2013 13:22:32 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 8, 2013 13:22:32 GMT -5
wow you must really HATE Pablo to tout a released 3rd baseman with increadibly worse numbers
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 8, 2013 13:29:34 GMT -5
He's awful. I pass.
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DFA'd
Aug 8, 2013 15:01:34 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 8, 2013 15:01:34 GMT -5
Not touting Reynolds. At all. I'm just passing on a fact. When it comes to Reynolds, I (like Meister) will pass.
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DFA'd
Aug 8, 2013 15:07:47 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 8, 2013 15:07:47 GMT -5
One guy I did like who was available earlier in the year was Juan Francisco. He seems to be enjoying some success with Milwaukee.
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DFA'd
Aug 8, 2013 17:12:33 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 8, 2013 17:12:33 GMT -5
Guillermo Quiroz.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 8, 2013 19:39:22 GMT -5
Not sure Hector Sanchez is better than Quiroz, but I definitely look at Sanchez this September over Quiroz to decide if he can be the backup next year.
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 1:16:34 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 9, 2013 1:16:34 GMT -5
With the progress Susac is making the Giants will be looking to trade Sanchez if he can bring some value. He can't bring much value if he just riding the bench.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 1:42:28 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 9, 2013 1:42:28 GMT -5
Not sure Hector Sanchez is better than Quiroz, but I definitely look at Sanchez this September over Quiroz to decide if he can be the backup next year.
Dood - Quiroz is an automatic out...it's like having two pitchers in the bottom of the order. A healthy Sanchez is a huge upgrade because we can give Buster true days off without sticking him at first base for fear of losing the offense. It's doubtful anyone will claim Guillermo but if they do, I wouldnt expect a lot of starts for him.
~Dood
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 9, 2013 7:02:41 GMT -5
Sanchez is just a younger automatic out. At least Quiroz was a decent defensive backup. Sanchez hasn't hit a lick all year.
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 10:57:44 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 9, 2013 10:57:44 GMT -5
In 2012 Sanchez was far from an automatic out. In fact he was one of the best backup catchers in baseball in 2012. Obviously the nagging shoulder injury this season has limited his playing time and affected his hitting. There's no question the Giants would rather have a healthy Sanchez behind the dish over Quiroz.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 9, 2013 11:48:21 GMT -5
I'd love to see the criteria you used to determine that Hector Sanchez was one if the best backup catchers in baseball. The .295 on base percentage? The .685 OPS? 52 K's to 5 walks? The lack of power? The way he doesn't frame pitches and low caught stealing rate? The way he made the fourth most errors of all catchers in the league even though he was a part time player? I could accept the hope that he's young and may get better, but to say he was one of the best when he was clearly one of the worst is flat out wrong.
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 12:07:38 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 9, 2013 12:07:38 GMT -5
Boagie may have overtsted his point...we all have done that from time to time. But the fact remains, if Quiroz had the offensive success that the 2012 Hector Sanchez did, he would be having a career year and jumping for joy. And he wouldnt have been DFAd
~Dood
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 12:28:42 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 9, 2013 12:28:42 GMT -5
I'd love to see the criteria you used to determine that Hector Sanchez was one if the best backup catchers in baseball. The .295 on base percentage? The .685 OPS? 52 K's to 5 walks? The lack of power? The way he doesn't frame pitches and low caught stealing rate? The way he made the fourth most errors of all catchers in the league even though he was a part time player? I could accept the hope that he's young and may get better, but to say he was one of the best when he was clearly one of the worst is flat out wrong. dk...why the negativity towards Sanchez....he was a very good catcher before he was injured and wore down from catching Tim...his caught stealing rate was 28 % even with his injuries and the fact that Tim never does a good job of holding runners on base...and Zito, the other guy he caught, was awful slow to the plate...Posey caught stealing is 27% and his throws continue to fade to the right.....I thought Tim and Sanchez worked a great game yesterday, better than his no-hitter. Sanchez did all the things you complained about in great fashion. framed pitches, threw on target, blocked balls in the dirt....did you notice Tim giving Sanchez a big bear hug in the dug-out after he was finished pitching...never saw Tim do that with Buster....Sanchez has been an adequate hitter in the minors and majors when he was healthy..and he is only 23 years old...if he would take off about 20 pounds he would border on all=star quality...
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 12:36:15 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Aug 9, 2013 12:36:15 GMT -5
thats actually a great point, DK...the Giants staff as a whole do a really poor job of holding runners on. Both Posey and Sanchez (and Quiroz actually) would be throwing more guys out trying to steal if the pitchers did better.
~Dood
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 12:47:12 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 9, 2013 12:47:12 GMT -5
Everything you said is true, Mark. You cite a lot of analytic numbers but fail to mention his .280 average and 34 RBIs. Name 3 backup catchers in 2012 with a higher average and more RBIs then I'll admit I'm wrong. Or name 3 defensively superior backup catchers who hit close to .280 with 34 RBIs. I think you have an unrealistic view of the typical backup catcher.
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 13:24:41 GMT -5
Post by allenreed on Aug 9, 2013 13:24:41 GMT -5
Kyle Farnsworth, Delmon Young. Delmon's only 27, has a little power, but can't field worth a damn.
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 15:28:09 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 9, 2013 15:28:09 GMT -5
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 15:31:07 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 9, 2013 15:31:07 GMT -5
Mark -- I'd love to see the criteria you used to determine that Hector Sanchez was one if the best backup catchers in baseball. The .295 on base percentage? The .685 OPS? 52 K's to 5 walks? The lack of power? The way he doesn't frame pitches and low caught stealing rate? The way he made the fourth most errors of all catchers in the league even though he was a part time player? Rog -- Very good points, Mark. And yet, because of his timely hitting, I think his reputation was pretty good, which is why I think the Giants should have traded him. Since they didn't though, I hope he can rebuild that reputation so they'll have a good second chance. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=1#ixzz2bVQV6Joh
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 16:41:11 GMT -5
Post by dk on Aug 9, 2013 16:41:11 GMT -5
Mark -- I'd love to see the criteria you used to determine that Hector Sanchez was one if the best backup catchers in baseball. The .295 on base percentage? The .685 OPS? 52 K's to 5 walks? The lack of power? The way he doesn't frame pitches and low caught stealing rate? The way he made the fourth most errors of all catchers in the league even though he was a part time player? Rog -- Very good points, Mark. And yet, because of his timely hitting, I think his reputation was pretty good, which is why I think the Giants should have traded him. Since they didn't though, I hope he can rebuild that reputation so they'll have a good second chance. dk you don't get much value for a catcher who can't throw...it is just recently that he began to catch, again. He was mostly DDH in Fresno....why do you always look to trade away players??
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 17:14:29 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 9, 2013 17:14:29 GMT -5
Rog -- Very good points, Mark. And yet, because of his timely hitting, I think his reputation was pretty good, which is why I think the Giants should have traded him.
Boagie- perhaps he would have gotten some value back, but not as much as he would get if he proves he can be a starting catcher. He's still young and I'd rather have him backing up until Susac is ready.
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DFA'd
Aug 9, 2013 17:20:52 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 9, 2013 17:20:52 GMT -5
Boagie- perhaps he would have gotten some value back, but not as much as he would get if he proves he can be a starting catcher. He's still young and I'd rather have him backing up until Susac is ready. Rog -- All good points, and Hector certainly is young enough to bounce back. When the time comes that the Giants can get value though, I'd worry about Susac later. Sometimes it is easier to sell potential and promise than to sell the finished product. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=1#13693#ixzz2bVsEQLZB
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 10, 2013 7:22:04 GMT -5
Boagie, I didn't mention the batting average because the other stats I did mention clearly showed how empty that .280 was. You hit .280 with a. .295 OBP and 3 hr in over 200 at bats, you're not a good hitter. As for the comparison to Quiroz, they're both bad baseball players, how about we compare him to a decent backup catcher?
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DFA'd
Aug 10, 2013 11:44:50 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 10, 2013 11:44:50 GMT -5
The last 10 seasons of backup catchers for the Giants:
2012- Hector Sanchez .295 OBP .280 avg. 34 RBIs
2011- Chris Stewart .283 OPS .204 avg. 10 RBIs
2010- Eli Whiteside .299 OPS .238 avg 10 RBIs
2009- Eli Whiteside .269 OPS .228 avg 13 RBIs
2008- Steve Holm .357 OPS .262 avg 6 RBIs
2007- Eliezer Alfonzo .284 OPS .250 avg 6 RBIs
2006- Mike Matheny .276 OPS .231 avg 18 RBIs
2005- Yorvit Torrealba .301 OPS .226 avg 7 RBIs
2004- Yorvit Torrealba .302 OPS .227 avg 23 RBIs
2003- Yorvit Torrealba .312 OPS .260 avg 29 RBIs
That's 10 years of backup catching and none that touched .280 or 34 RBIs.
I based the backup catcher on the catcher with the second amount of at-bats that season. That's why Matheny showed up for 2006, even Matheny who was a good starting catcher couldn't hit .280.
The only catcher of this group you could make a good argument for being better than Sanchez (and I'd agree) is Torrealba, and he went on to have a very nice career, mainly as a starting catcher. Which just proves my point, Sanchez could find himself being a starter in the near future.
I was rather surprised by Steve Holm's OBP, impressive for a backup catche. If he'd been able to sustain that during a full season of being the backup I'd have considered that a better season than Sanchez's, but obviously with the amount of RBIs its clear his time was limited.
Hector isn't the best backup catcher ever. In the last 10 years of Giants catchers his 2012 season would come behind some of Torrealbas but to say he was among the worst backup catchers in baseball in 2012 is simply not true, and far more exaggerated than me saying he was one of the best. I'll say it again, Mark, you're usually on point with every comment you make, but this time I think you're grossly over estimating a backup catchers offense.
If you still don't agree, find me a backup catcher in 2012 who was significantly better.
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DFA'd
Aug 10, 2013 13:39:26 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 10, 2013 13:39:26 GMT -5
I said Yorvit was mainly a starter during his career and after thinking about that a while and then looking it up I was incorrect. He was mostly a backup, but a backup that was used a Hugh percentage of the time. He was a starter for a few years but most of his career was in a platoon/backup role.
Just wanted to correct that before someone else did.
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DFA'd
Aug 10, 2013 16:26:06 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 10, 2013 16:26:06 GMT -5
Boagie -- I said Yorvit was mainly a starter during his career and after thinking about that a while and then looking it up I was incorrect. He was mostly a backup, but a backup that was used a Hugh percentage of the time. He was a starter for a few years but most of his career was in a platoon/backup role. Rog -- You were pretty close. Just as you amended, Yorvit has mostly backed up, but has played a lot of the time -- including when the Rockies went to the postseason about six years ago and he played an important role. Yorvit has always been one of my favorites, especially since Mark nicknamed him Yorvit "The Big Boys Now." And indeed he was. I have often looked back and wondered what would have happened had the Giants given Yorvit the shot at the catching position instead of trading for A.J. Pierzynski. One thing that is ironic though is that while that would have saved some temporary embarassment, it would have changed Giants history, quite possibly in a way that didn't lead to the past two World Championships. As for Hector, according to Hensly Meulens today, Hector came into camp out of shape and is still a little overweight. Personally, I thought he was overrated last season, based on a so-so performance brightened considerably by some clutch RBI's. "Clutch" is a hard sklll to repeat season after season, so I discounted it quite a bit. Hector is, believe it or not, a year younger than prospect Gary Brown. Hector made a much quicker transition from San Jose to Fresno than Gary has. In 2011, Hector started the season with San Jose, then moved up to Fresno, hitting just about the same there as Gary has this season. The difference is that he was three years younger than Gary is now. Hector's development was quick, but in his stints in the majors, he has struck out nearly six times for every time he has walked. That's problematic, although not quite as much for a catcher, since catching is a position in which few players reach base a lot. Hector is still 23, so he has time to develop. But I would say there are quite a few question marks between hitting, fielding and conditioning. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1953&page=1#13710#ixzz2bbSJUK3R
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DFA'd
Aug 10, 2013 23:40:55 GMT -5
Post by Islandboagie on Aug 10, 2013 23:40:55 GMT -5
RBIs are RBIs, the fact that a good number of them were clutch makes it even that more impressive. And there's a fairly obvious reason why Sanchez had a high number of them over other backup catchers we've had recently, he batted .280! I've always been a strong supporter of OBP, but OBP doesn't knock in RBIs. The analytic numbers don't back up what kind of player Sanchez was in 2012, but sometimes you have to consider just pure hitting. Pure hitting will drive in runs. When you're dealing with the bottom part of the lineup I will take a .280 hitter with a .295 obp over a .250 hitter with a .310 obp.
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Post by rxmeister on Aug 11, 2013 7:05:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry Boagie, your defense of Sanchez on the basis of RBI's defeats your premise. RBI is a function of the team you're on and who is batting in front of you, more than anything you do yourself. If you're a good hitter but the batters in front of you don't get on base, you don't drive in runs, but even a poor hitter will accumulate a decent amount of RBI's constantly coming to the plate with runners in scoring position. You mentioned that he batted at the bottom of the lineup, but this is actually not true. Most managers hit their backup catcher eighth, but Bochy hit Sanchez in the 5,6,and 7 spots 9,16 and 19 times respectively, compared to only 8 times in the eighth spot. Might this explain the 34 RBI's? Pretty much. Hitting right behind the Panda, the league's MVP (who often played 1B when Hector was catching) and Pence, you're usually coming up in good spots. Bochy also thinks Sanchez is a better hitter than he actually is, which is why he hit him so high, so you have that in common. That being said, backup catchers are usually pretty putrid, so I'll back off my statement that he was one of the worst, and amend it to "average." See? I can be reasonable!
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 11:37:11 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 11, 2013 11:37:11 GMT -5
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DFA'd
Aug 11, 2013 11:38:42 GMT -5
Post by sharksrog on Aug 11, 2013 11:38:42 GMT -5
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