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Post by sharksrog on Mar 26, 2013 9:46:52 GMT -5
We hate to see Brock Bond go to the minors after the fine spring he has had, hitting over .400. But how about the Dodgers and Yasiel Puig?
Most hot hitters come back to earth as spring training advances and the better pitchers pitch more innings. In Puig's case, he has gone 11 for his last 15.
Yesterday Puig got only one hit in two trips -- and saw his average drop a point.
Carl Crawford has seemingly returned to health and is hitting .350 in his abbreviated spring, but sooner or later the Dodgers will need to make room for Puig.
Let's put it this way: If one of the Dodger outfielders -- all of whom are former All-Stars -- goes down, the call will almost certainly go to Puig.
On the other hand, Hanley Ramirez is expected to be out for an extended period of time. To the best of my knowledge, Puig doesn't play the infield.
To be honest, I haven't yet evaluated the Dodgers. As far as I know, I still favor the Giants. But, darn, those guys down south are making it tough.
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Post by allenreed on Mar 26, 2013 10:33:15 GMT -5
It's been rumored that Ethier will be the guy to go. As for the Dodgers, I still don't think they have the mentl makeup to be successful. We shall see though.
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sfgdood
Long time member 
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 26, 2013 11:57:55 GMT -5
I learned a long time ago in this game not to worry about what other teams are doing...concentrate on your own team and how you're doing...this is especially true for championship teams. If you're constantly talking about other teams it either means you like them better or you're not concentrating on your own team enough.
I think you need to move on to the LA board, Roger the Dodger.
~Dood
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 26, 2013 13:56:08 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 26, 2013 13:58:05 GMT -5
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Post by sfgdood on Mar 26, 2013 14:03:50 GMT -5
Randy -- I think you need to move on to the LA board, Roger the Dodger.
Rog -- So, you have no problem with the prognosticators who pick the Dodgers to win the NL West?
Dood - no, because I have always regarded preseason projections as nothing more than pulling names and numbers out of your ass. I could shoot darts on a wall filled with different batting averages and have as much chance at accurately projecting a season for any player or team. If I thought these morons had any credibility, I might take it worse.
Why havent you left for your beloved Dodger board so you can jerk off to that Puig guy some more?
~Dood
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Post by allenreed on Mar 26, 2013 15:38:38 GMT -5
Seems a bit harsh. I enjoy following the other teams, especially those in our division. I agree with you that the prognostications don't really mean much though. I doubt that many of the guys making them know as much as most of the posters here.
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 26, 2013 22:01:09 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 27, 2013 1:10:07 GMT -5
Rog -- You've got to be kidding, Allen. I will agree with you that many of us know more about the GIANTS than most of the prognosticators, but do you truly think you know enough about all 30 teams to make well-thought-out choices?
I know I certainly don't.
Boagie- Depends who we're talking about. I'm sure Peter Gammons, Ken Rosenthal and Jon Heyman can list all the teams depth charts in their sleep. But if we're just talking about some journalist for ESPN magazine or Brian Kenny, nope, I would say we know more.
Rosenthal, Gammons and Heyman could probably join this board and jump right into these conversations, Kenny would be lost unless we were talking about WAR, and the ESPN writer wouldn't even know what a Nick Noonan is.
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Post by allenreed on Mar 27, 2013 11:24:56 GMT -5
Allen -- I doubt that many of the guys making them know as much as most of the posters here.
Rog -- You've got to be kidding, Allen. I will agree with you that many of us know more about the GIANTS than most of the prognosticators, but do you truly think you know enough about all 30 teams to make well-thought-out choices?
I know I certainly don't.
Allen- You seem to think that vast knowledge automatically comes with a press credential. Alot of the guys making these predictions don't know much about baseball, and I doubt seriously that they closely follow all 30 teams.
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 27, 2013 15:52:16 GMT -5
Rog -- You've got to be kidding, Allen. I will agree with you that many of us know more about the GIANTS than most of the prognosticators, but do you truly think you know enough about all 30 teams to make well-thought-out choices? I know I certainly don't. Boagie- Depends who we're talking about. I'm sure Peter Gammons, Ken Rosenthal and Jon Heyman can list all the teams depth charts in their sleep. But if we're just talking about some journalist for ESPN magazine or Brian Kenny, nope, I would say we know more. Rog -- About the Giants, yes. But not about 30 major league teams overall. Boagie -- Rosenthal, Gammons and Heyman could probably join this board and jump right into these conversations, Kenny would be lost unless we were talking about WAR, and the ESPN writer wouldn't even know what a Nick Noonan is. Rog -- Again, the national guys probably DON'T know as much about the Giants as we do. But they do know a lot more about the other teams than we do. As an example, how many of us knew about Yasiel Puig before we began discussing him this week? I'll bet I knew the most (with the possible exception of Don and Boly, who live in SoCal), and all I knew was that he was a hot prospect who hadn't played above High A ball in his single season in organized ball. Yes, I HAD looked to see if he might become the Dodgers left fielder if Crawford couldn't go, but I had ruled him out due to lack of experience. I suspect some of us knew about Bryce Harper a year ago, but how much did we know about Mike Trout? How much do any of us know about David Price, the #1 overall pick ahead of Buster Posey in 2008 and one of the game's top starters? How much do we know about, say, Jay Bruce? How many of us can tell in detail why the Blue Jays should or shouldn't be the favorites in the AL East? I realize I'm considered pompous here. But I'll be the first to admit I don't know nearly as much about teams aside from the Giants as the national guys do. I think one of my strengths is that I know what I don't know. I don't get that impression from everyone here. I don't think the media guys get NEARLY enough credit. Let's put it this way: IF someone can make a job look easy, they're usually pretty good at it. If we think their job is easy, they are likely doing a darn good job at it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9840#ixzz2Om79G07M |
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 27, 2013 15:53:31 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 27, 2013 17:49:38 GMT -5
Rog -- Again, the national guys probably DON'T know as much about the Giants as we do. But they do know a lot more about the other teams than we do.
As an example, how many of us knew about Yasiel Puig before we began discussing him this week? I'll bet I knew the most (with the possible exception of Don and Boly, who live in SoCal), and all I knew was that he was a hot prospect who hadn't played above High A ball in his single season in organized ball. Yes, I HAD looked to see if he might become the Dodgers left fielder if Crawford couldn't go, but I had ruled him out due to lack of experience.
Boagie- I heard the name early this spring, but I wasn't sure who he was. I still have yet to see him mentioned on the MLB Network. I'm sure Gammons knows who he is, but that's Gammons, he has the most contacts and gets the most infomation, same with Rosenthal and Heyman, the other guys learn as much as the scouts and beat writers are willing to tell them. It's not really a matter of how much they know, more of how much access they have to information if they need it.
I was dating a girl a few years back who had a cousin that just recently got a job as a journalist in the sports section of his hometown paper. He was overjoyed to get the chance, but there was one catch, he knew NOTHING about sports.
Yeah, Rog. There are some guys out there that know their stuff, but at the same time you got guys like my ex girlfriend's cousin who look at it like a job in journalism, and nothing more. They collect notes on what they're writing about, access a few stat sheets, perhaps talk to a beat writer, and write an article. After that article is done with, that journalist could lose most of that information and go onto the next story.
How many times do we really find out something we didn't know by reading or watching something from ESPN?
Rog- I suspect some of us knew about Bryce Harper a year ago, but how much did we know about Mike Trout? How much do any of us know about David Price, the #1 overall pick ahead of Buster Posey in 2008 and one of the game's top starters?
Boagie- I'd be surprised if anyone who remotely follows baseball didn't know who Bryce Harper was a year ago, I remember hearing his name in High School. I knew who Mike Trout was a year ago too.
Rog- How much do we know about, say, Jay Bruce?
Boagie- Jay Bruce; Young (I want to say 26?), good power production, good fielder with a great arm, but he strikes out alot. He puts up all-star caliber numbers, but he's never struck me as a scary hitter...that's off the top of my head. I'm not entirely certain on his speed, I think it's slightly above average.
Rog- How many of us can tell in detail why the Blue Jays should or shouldn't be the favorites in the AL East?
Boagie- I picked them as my favorites in the AL East because of obvious reasons.
Their lineup is studly.
Reyes SS and Cabrera LF will be a nice 1-2 punch at the top..at least that's who I assume they'd put at the top, I could be wrong. Then you have Bautista RF, Encarnacion DH in the middle. Lind 1B, their catcher (i can't spell his name) Aransibia? then Lowrie 3B (who i believe will be starting the year on the DL) then there's Colby Rasmus in CF. I'm missing their 2nd baseman.
As far as their pitching...They have one of my favorite pitchers in the game, Josh Johnson. Ok I cheated and just looked up what he's doing this spring, 4-0 with a 1.13 ERA and 21 Ks in 16 innings, pretty sharp. The rest of the rotation is RA Dickey, Buehrle, JA Happ, Rickey Romero, although I'm not certain on Romero.
Their bullpen I believe is their weak spot, because I can't think of anyone in their bullpen.
With what I know, I could easily find out the rest and give you a full 2013 report on the Blue Jays before the day was over. That's all they do, once a week, some ESPN writer has to come up with one story, and writes on it.
Honestly, we probably write more about baseball than those guys, and alot of it I don't have to look up unless we're comparing numbers. I could probably read up the few things I don't know about the Blue Jays and within an hour be able to go discuss with them on their board.
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 27, 2013 18:59:18 GMT -5
Boagie -- I was dating a girl a few years back who had a cousin that just recently got a job as a journalist in the sports section of his hometown paper. He was overjoyed to get the chance, but there was one catch, he knew NOTHING about sports. Rog -- That's shocking. I think the newspapers are doing some hiring of young writers (Alex Pavlovich is only three years out of UCSB IIRC) in order to save money. But with all the highly qualified applicants, I'm rather shocked a non-sports guy would be hired to write sports. Obviously it happened, but I'll bet it is extremely rare and far from the norm. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9860#ixzz2OmtvirLP |
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 27, 2013 19:00:51 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 27, 2013 19:13:23 GMT -5
Boagie- Jay Bruce; Young (I want to say 26?), good power production, good fielder with a great arm, but he strikes out alot. He puts up all-star caliber numbers, but he's never struck me as a scary hitter...that's off the top of my head. I'm not entirely certain on his speed, I think it's slightly above average. Rog -- I can't think of anything you wrote here that wasn't correct, but -- like my knowledge of Bruce -- it's pretty cursory. The winter before the 2007 season a guy asked me in an email how I compared Tim to Bruce. I told him I didn't know much about Bruce, but that I didn't see anyting outstanding. And I told him I did see a lot about Tim that was outstanding. When Bruce came up, I predicted he would hit with a lot of power but be (IIRC) something like a .260 hitter, even though Baseball America rated him their #1 overall prospect prior to the 2008 season. Right now one could easily trade Lincecum for Bruce, and Jay is considered one of the top young power hitters in the game -- but despite all that power, he is hitting just .255. I don't remember where he ranked among right fielders, but I believe it was something like 8th. Bruce is a star, but not a superstar. The reason is that he's struck out more than once every four at bats. Good player though. But, really, how much do I know about him? Not much. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#ixzz2OmuvgZGi |
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Post by allenreed on Mar 29, 2013 11:32:34 GMT -5
As an example, how many of us knew about Yasiel Puig before we began discussing him this week?
Allen- I knew about Puig last year. He was mentioned several times in articles about possible Cuban prospects when Cespedes was on the market. Another name is a kid named Soler, who I believe signed with the Cubs. he was sent down earlier this spring.
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Post by allenreed on Mar 29, 2013 11:39:41 GMT -5
[
How much do we know about, say, Jay Bruce?
Allen- Bruce was regarded as basically the second coming when he was in the Reds system, and when he first came up to the big club. Hasn't quite worked out that way, but he's still a pretty solid player. Good defensively, good power hitter (aided by his home park), but he strikes out too much, and doesn't hit for average
How many of us can tell in detail why the Blue Jays should or shouldn't be the favorites in the AL East?
Allen- Obviously because of the off-season acquisitions they made, and the demise of the Yankees. Of course Miami made similar moves last year, and that didn't quite work out. The Jays are playing in a suddenly weak division, have great power, and good speed. Will their pitching hold up?
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 29, 2013 12:22:42 GMT -5
Rog -- How many of us can tell in detail why the Blue Jays should or shouldn't be the favorites in the AL East? Allen- Obviously because of the off-season acquisitions they made, and the demise of the Yankees. Of course Miami made similar moves last year, and that didn't quite work out. The Jays are playing in a suddenly weak division, have great power, and good speed. Will their pitching hold up? Rog -- That's very good analysis, Allen, but not in detail. I wouldn't expect any less from the national guys, and I would think most could go into depth player by player. Boagie doesn't seem to like him much, but I'm sure Bryan Kenny could. Likewise with almost all the guys at the MLB Network. I wasn't a big fan of Ray Ratto, but now that he's getting radio and TV exposure, I'm surprised how much he knows about the broad range of sports. Admittedly it's his full-time job, but isn't that the point? For us it is a hobby we're passionate about. For them it is their livelihood and for many, their life. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9901#ixzz2OwyUzUO1 |
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Post by allenreed on Mar 29, 2013 15:05:03 GMT -5
I probably could as well. I just don't really feel like spending the time to write a lengthy essay on the Toronto Blue Jays. They have alot of good players, and should score alot of runs. I'm just not all that sure about their pitching.
I like Ratto, though he can be an obnoxious sort. That is the point . For people who make their living doing this stuff, alot of them don't have more than ordinary knowledge.
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 29, 2013 15:46:42 GMT -5
Allen -- I probably could as well. I just don't really feel like spending the time to write a lengthy essay on the Toronto Blue Jays. They have alot of good players, and should score alot of runs. I'm just not all that sure about their pitching. I like Ratto, though he can be an obnoxious sort. That is the point . For people who make their living doing this stuff, alot of them don't have more than ordinary knowledge. Rog -- The Blue Jays have likely received more press than any other team, but how's your knowledge of the Houston Astros? I know they switched leagues, and that's about all. But the guys making prognostications are usually pretty knowledgeable. One advantage many of them have over us is that they can talk to representatives of the teams. At the very least, they can talk to writers who cover the various clubs. These writers have contacts that we just don't have access to. ESPN's J.A Adande can call Kobe Bryant, for instance, and Kobe will answer or call him back. Although I've never asked the question, I have a feeling Michael Jordan would do the same -- or at least would have when Josh was covering the Bulls. Have you watched J.A. and others on Around the Horn? I know I'm pretty surprised at how much knowledge they have of all the things that are going on in sports. I would think they would know what was going to be covered, but still, their answers are often pretty knowledgeable and sometimes rather wise. I believe, Allen, that you give too many people short shrift. I often get the impression that almost no one in any field satisfies your expectations, and that you believe you could do as good a job as they. I don't follow your Raiders, but I think Steve Corkran of the CC Times covers them quite well. He has access to players, coaches and GM's that you and I just don't have. When one looks at newspaper writers and realizes how many jobs have been lost, he should realize that for the most part, those that are left are the cream of the crop. Let me give you an example of a guy who ISN'T covering the Giants any more (at least not to my knowledge). Jeff Fletcher covered them for the Santa Rosa Press-Democrat for years before losing his job to contraction. Soon after he lost the job, I heard him on KNBR talking about how he felt that Matt Holliday would hit well after leaving the Rockies because, even though Holliday's numbers were inflated as were almost everyone else's who played in Coors, Matt actually hit WELL on the road after two or three games to adjust to the bigger movement on pitches at lower elevations. Holliday has done pretty darn well for the A's and Cardinals. Hey, Allen, I'd like to think I could be wonderful at sportswriting and sports officiating, both things I have done at lower levels. And maybe if I were fully trained in those fields I could. But I seriously doubt it. You act as if you could perform these things as well as the ones who do them if you were trained. Let me say that I would bet my house that you couldn't. It's not that I don't have a high level of respect for you, it's just that IMO you don't have a high enough level of respect for those who do the job. I would like to think that with as much research into various aspects of baseball that I know as much about certain topics as anyone. But unless the topic is very, very specific, I don't. Pretty much anyone here will tell you that I'm not lacking in confidence. I rarely take a hard position on a topic unless I can back up my opinion with a fair number of facts. But I'm also not lacking reality. Rare is the time that there isn't someone -- or even many someones -- who know more about something than I do, even though I have done a lot of research. Give people credit where credit is due. If you think their job is easy, it is probably because they are very good at performing it. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9908#ixzz2OxiV21k8 |
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Post by allenreed on Mar 30, 2013 12:26:27 GMT -5
Rog -- The Blue Jays have likely received more press than any other team, but how's your knowledge of the Houston Astros? I know they switched leagues, and that's about all.
Allen- Switched leagues. Changed uniforms and logos. Made some moves, and should be a bit better, though I doubt they will finish out of the cellar in the suddenly tough AL West.
Carlos Pena signed with them. Rick Ankiel was invited to spring training. They got Chris Carter from the A's. he should provide some power. Unfortunately, they had to give Jed Lowrie to get him.
They still have Jose Altuve and JD Martinez, who are fairly good. Their pitching may be a little short. I hear Bud Norris will be their opening day starter, and Erik Bedard will make their rotation.
I was surprised that they couldn't find a place for Nate Freiman, who they shipped to Oakland. He seemed like the kind of hitter who could find the Crawford boxes with regularity once he developed.
ESPN's J.A Adande can call Kobe Bryant, for instance, and Kobe will answer or call him back. Although I've never asked the question, I have a feeling Michael Jordan would do the same -- or at least would have when Josh was covering the Bulls.
Allen- Say he calls Kobe. Think he'll get any meaningful information? Say he calls Jordan. Tries to ask him a legitimate question, say "How is it that you fouled up two franchises so badly, yet still have a job in basketball?" What do you think Jordan's answer would be? Athletes today aren't going to say anything that could be called controversial. Let their press agent deal with it.
Have you watched J.A. and others on Around the Horn? I know I'm pretty surprised at how much knowledge they have of all the things that are going on in sports. I would think they would know what was going to be covered, but still, their answers are often pretty knowledgeable and sometimes rather wise.
Allen- I don't care much for that show, though I have watched it. I'm pretty sure they're prepped on the subject matter, as they are on most news shows. When say CNN is doing a remote, do you think the anchor is going to ask the field reporter any questions that they're not prpared to answer?
I believe, Allen, that you give too many people short shrift. I often get the impression that almost no one in any field satisfies your expectations, and that you believe you could do as good a job as they.
Allen- I'm a cynic and a skeptic. I'll admit that. I think you give these guys too much unwarranted credit, thinking that because they got a job, they automatically have the knowledge. How many times do you read something or hear something from the media (other than announcing a transaction) that you didn't already know? For me, it's not very often.
I don't follow your Raiders, but I think Steve Corkran of the CC Times covers them quite well. He has access to players, coaches and GM's that you and I just don't have.
Allen- With the Raiders, that isn't saying much. They don't share alot of stuff with the press, even after Al died.
You act as if you could perform these things as well as the ones who do them if you were trained. Let me say that I would bet my house that you couldn't. It's not that I don't have a high level of respect for you, it's just that IMO you don't have a high enough level of respect for those who do the job.
Allen- I'm not sure that's what I'm saying as much as I'm saying that the ones who do have the job could do it better. The media as a whole in this country should be ashamed of the job they're doing. The liberal media decides which stories they will cover and which they won't based on their own political agenda, and the people are the ones that suffer. They're uninformed and can't make good decisions because they don't have the correct information.
As for sports media, they seemed more concerned with looking for scandals and sensationalism than they do about providing useful information, but I guess that's what sells.
Give people credit where credit is due. If you think their job is easy, it is probably because they are very good at performing it.
Allen- I think I do. There are some good reporters out there. But I'm not going to give credit where it isn't due, and for alot of the current media, that is the case.
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 30, 2013 23:16:36 GMT -5
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Post by allenreed on Mar 31, 2013 16:18:38 GMT -5
Rog -- Josh has broken a fair amount of news about Kobe.
Allen- For instance?
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Post by sharksrog on Mar 31, 2013 18:42:17 GMT -5
Rog -- Josh has broken a fair amount of news about Kobe. Allen- For instance? Rog -- To be honest, I don't know, since I don't pay much attention to Kobe. But I have read or heard about it. Anyway, Allen, I've never been a particularly big fan of Josh's writing, but he does an excellent job on Around the Horn. And apparently someone likes his writing, as he has had a very nice career at a relatively young age. I remember visiting him at courtside at a Warriors/Bulls game, and that must have been at least 15 years ago. He was a beat writer for the Bulls. Josh is still only about 40, probably 41 or 42. I have posted this before, but if you want to read what I consider to be by far his best writing, read this: articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/28/sports/sp-45543Gosh, I hadn't realized it had been almost 13 years since him mom died. Josh's goal at that time was to switch into TV, and it didn't take him too long to do so. Anyway, Allen, give these guys some credit. Almost without exception they're big-time sports fans. Even though the guys in the sports newroom at the Contra Costa Times are working, there is a TV up on the wall where they watch the latest big game. I never enjoyed that advantage when I worked. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9941#ixzz2PABac7BY |
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Post by allenreed on Apr 1, 2013 10:02:38 GMT -5
Rog -- Josh has broken a fair amount of news about Kobe.
Allen- For instance?
Rog -- To be honest, I don't know, since I don't pay much attention to Kobe. But I have read or heard about it.
Allen- Oh.
Anyway, Allen, I've never been a particularly big fan of Josh's writing, but he does an excellent job on Around the Horn.
Allen- He's probably the least obnoxious guy on there. I'll give him that.
Anyway, Allen, give these guys some credit. Almost without exception they're big-time sports fans.
Allen- So what? So are many people who post here.
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 1, 2013 15:09:22 GMT -5
Allen -- Anyway, Allen, give these guys some credit. Almost without exception they're big-time sports fans. Allen- So what? So are many people who post here. Rog -- You were the one who said some journalism student who knew nothing about sports was hired for sports. I had never heard of such a situation. Really, Allen, give these guys some credit. You seem so reluctant to give anyone else credit. With regard to baseball, you are critical of umpires and sportswriters. Walk a mile in a guy's shoes, Allen. I've done both those jobs. They're not nearly as easy as you think. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9944#ixzz2PFCCMNQy |
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Post by allenreed on Apr 2, 2013 11:38:36 GMT -5
Rog -- You were the one who said some journalism student who knew nothing about sports was hired for sports. I had never heard of such a situation.
Allen- I really can't remember saying that.
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Post by sharksrog on Apr 2, 2013 12:06:40 GMT -5
Rog -- You were the one who said some journalism student who knew nothing about sports was hired for sports. I had never heard of such a situation. Allen- I really can't remember saying that. Rog -- I picked that up somewhere, perhaps from another poster. I'm glad it wasn't you who posted it. Criticizing those in a highly-competitive profession as being incompetent is usually fruitless. It's something like saying a particular major league baseball player is incompetent. Compared to other major leaguers, some certainly look that way. But compared to all in the profession -- and particurly all those who aspired to be or think they could be -- those guys are excellent. I realize major league baseball is an extreme example, but you get the idea. And those who somehow DO luck out usually don't last long. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1622&page=1#9968#ixzz2PKIQJoGB |
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donk
New Member
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Post by donk on Apr 2, 2013 15:54:46 GMT -5
The whole world is filled with incompenent people, many in high places. Why should sportswriting be any different?  The old adage.."it's not what you know but who you know" is still alive today and much older than sliced bread... |
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The old adage.."it's not what you know but who you know" is still alive today and much older than sliced bread...