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Post by reedonly on Dec 11, 2023 12:02:05 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 12, 2023 14:41:06 GMT -5
I disagree with Krueger's rant.
#1. As I already expressed, you don't win Championships by going after big name free agents. The Angels, Dodgers, Mets and most recently the Padres have overwhelmingly proven this.
#2. the citizens voted to not pay for a new stadium with tax dollars, but they vote yes to paying for anything liberal. The bay area media also didn't do much to push the issue in favor of paying for the new stadium. So there's really no reason for the locals to criticize the ownership group in their handling of the money they are seeing now after they chose to invest, while the locals chose not to.
#3 The "fans" and local media ran Sabean and Bochy out of town for being "old heads." Obviously, there's a lot who still love Bochy, but many thought it was time for the Giants to adopt the new modern way of playing a sabremetric style of baseball. Pretty sure most of the media pushed that idea to the fans and they gobbled it up. Not sure Krueger was one, but I fairly certain he didn't oppose the switch.
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 12, 2023 15:44:25 GMT -5
I agree with Larry's rant in one aspect; we have money to spend and we're not spending it. No I'm not saying we build a team through free agents, but what I am saying is that we get a few Key Parts and then let the kids in the system come up and play.
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Post by reedonly on Dec 12, 2023 19:03:16 GMT -5
My gripe is that they have money to spend on good players, get outbid, and then spend on bad or damaged players
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Post by reedonly on Dec 12, 2023 19:28:57 GMT -5
I disagree with Krueger's rant. #1. As I already expressed, you don't win Championships by going after big name free agents. The Angels, Dodgers, Mets and most recently the Padres have overwhelmingly proven this. #2. the citizens voted to not pay for a new stadium with tax dollars, but they vote yes to paying for anything liberal. The bay area media also didn't do much to push the issue in favor of paying for the new stadium. So there's really no reason for the locals to criticize the ownership group in their handling of the money they are seeing now after they chose to invest, while the locals chose not to. #3 The "fans" and local media ran Sabean and Bochy out of town for being "old heads." Obviously, there's a lot who still love Bochy, but many thought it was time for the Giants to adopt the new modern way of playing a sabremetric style of baseball. Pretty sure most of the media pushed that idea to the fans and they gobbled it up. Not sure Krueger was one, but I fairly certain he didn't oppose the switch. Citizens did not vote to pay for ballpark but they did give them a tax abatement and voted for $90 million in infrastructure upgrades. Also, voters approved of the Mission Rock Project in 2015 that was pushed heavily by the Giants and the Giants said it would help as an income stream for the baseball club. Mission Rock now has valuation of $2.5 billion so while the city did not fund the ballpark, they got about $100 million for infrastructure and all that money from Mission Rock. All of that is on missionrock.com. While the Giants built their own ballpark, there were two separate ballot measures to provide them with the land on which the ballpark was built and the land for the Mission Rock area. Without those two ballot measures, the Giants would not be sitting on $5 billion valuation so its not like the city is totally separated. I'm not sure where you hear Sabean and Bochy were run out of town. No one in my circle of friends and family did not like Sabean and Bochy, In fact, the only guy I know who liked Zaidi better than Sabean was a poster on this board. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Dec 12, 2023 22:56:52 GMT -5
I listened to the interview with Alec Pavlovic, and he was adamant that Bruce Bochy was not run out of town.
Not sure where you heard that, boagie, but it doesn't agree with what was said in the interview.
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Post by reedonly on Dec 13, 2023 9:43:34 GMT -5
I don't think Bochy was "run out of town" as such but in 2019, it would have been difficult to continue. The team was shifting into analytics mode so it was probably not Bochy's preferred style and it would have been hard to mesh with the new system. I realize that comments were made by Sabean to Larry Krueger saying that Bochy did not go out on his own terms so the truth probably lies in the middle. Bochy was technically not forced out or asked to leave but Zaidi surrounded him with a new system that would have made it difficult to continue.
In my own personal situation, I was not asked to retire but I was using up an FTE (full time equivalent) and was a drag on the company budget. Right before I left, I was tasked with learning a lot of new things and it was difficult to learn everything so I left when I turned 65. The company replaced my position with a 60% FTE to save them money. I was not asked to leave but they made it hard to stay.
Second, and more importantly, Bochy was in pretty bad physical shape in 2019. At the end of 2019, he could hardly walk. Those familiar with Bochy's personal life know that the thing that is really important to him and his wife is to take walks in the cities he travels to. He probably cannot do his "Everest" walks anymore (meaning ballpark to Golden Gate Bridge or climbing the steps to Coit Tower) but it was a good way for him to clear his mind when he was managing. During his hiatus, he had four total procedures for back, knees, and hip. It's pretty clear that if he did not get the time off to do all those procedures, he would have required a cane and be subject to a great deal of pain. He was 64 when he left in 2019 but with all the physical and cardiac problems, it was not a young 64.
The only reason we discuss whether Bochy was forced out or not is because the new system that was implemented crashed and burned. In 2019, Bochy earned the right to decide to do whatever he wanted to and what he wanted was to not have to deal with the increased analytics and get himself healthy. He was in such bad shape in 2019 that if he continued, something bad might have happened to him to force him to quit.
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 13, 2023 23:31:47 GMT -5
Bochy was given a retirement send off when he himself never said he was retiring, and as far as I know he wasn't offered a contract to stay. If that's not being pushed out I don't know what is.
If you believe the fans weren't ready for Bochy to leave, go look at our 2019 season posts..plenty of negative comments about Boch.
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Post by reedonly on Dec 16, 2023 0:21:34 GMT -5
The Athletic gave some insight about Bochy. He did not want to deal with a GM who wanted to dictate his decisions with analytics so he wanted to give FZ a chance to find his own manager. He had no discussion with FZ. Bochy had a gut feeling it was time and had a discussion with Baer and that was that. FZ said he didnt want to talk Bochy out of it out of respect of the decision he made. The losing seasons, bad health, and family time also were factors. Meanwhile, he went on a farewell tour but it wasn't a "goodbye forever" tour and he got all those gifts. The lavishness of some of the gifts might have indicated he was retiring like the Vin Scully tribute, the Koufax signed jersey and the Fenway stadium seat. Also, most of his core players were aging or gone, especially Bumgarner. If I was not retiring, maybe I might have told the Giants to not bill it as a "farewell tour" and to tone it down on the gifts.
In the break time, he got four procedures done, he got offers from Preller to manage the Padres but he wasn't ready yet. Also, Covid shut things down and he didn't want to get in the middle of that. One of Bochy 's sons moved to Tennessee with four grandkids so he now has a house there. The Texas GM called FZ about Bochy about their experiences together and FZ said it was a great experience and he had a good feel for where the players were. FZ said he wasn't anti numbers but wanted to be as prepared as possible. then Young hired Bochy. Texas is closer to Tennessee so it worked out for him and his family.
From the Athletic: Perhaps it’s more instructive to revisit what Bochy said in 2019: “Sometimes you just know it’s time, and it’s as simple as that. I’ve got no other plans or agenda. I’ve done a lot of managing with my gut, and my gut feeling just told me, ‘You know what, it’s time.’ Whether the team needs to hear another voice or I needed a break, it was just my time to step down. And I’m good with it, I really am.”
So technically Bochy was not forced out but FZ made it difficult for him to stay. In Zaidi's words: “I almost now look back and say, like, ‘Should I have lied on the tracks and tried getting him to stay?'” Zaidi said, via Andrew Baggarly of The Athletic. “It just didn’t even seem like it was an option at the time. It almost seemed disrespectful for me to try to talk him out of something that at the time he felt like doing.” And having to deal with an army of analytics stats geeks is definitely too much. So FZ technically did not force Bochy out but was not bending over backward to keep him.
My hope for Bochy is that he will be around to get inducted to Cooperstown and under his own power. I don't want them to wait until after he's gone to induct him because he deserves all the accolades and tributes while he is around.
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Post by pachyderm on Dec 17, 2023 6:28:06 GMT -5
pfft. Worthless rant. He glosses over the fact that we own our own ballpark. Novice. |
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Post by Islandboagie on Dec 17, 2023 11:59:42 GMT -5
The Athletic gave some insight about Bochy. He did not want to deal with a GM who wanted to dictate his decisions with analytics so he wanted to give FZ a chance to find his own manager. He had no discussion with FZ. Bochy had a gut feeling it was time and had a discussion with Baer and that was that. FZ said he didnt want to talk Bochy out of it out of respect of the decision he made. The losing seasons, bad health, and family time also were factors. Meanwhile, he went on a farewell tour but it wasn't a "goodbye forever" tour and he got all those gifts. The lavishness of some of the gifts might have indicated he was retiring like the Vin Scully tribute, the Koufax signed jersey and the Fenway stadium seat. Also, most of his core players were aging or gone, especially Bumgarner. If I was not retiring, maybe I might have told the Giants to not bill it as a "farewell tour" and to tone it down on the gifts. In the break time, he got four procedures done, he got offers from Preller to manage the Padres but he wasn't ready yet. Also, Covid shut things down and he didn't want to get in the middle of that. One of Bochy 's sons moved to Tennessee with four grandkids so he now has a house there. The Texas GM called FZ about Bochy about their experiences together and FZ said it was a great experience and he had a good feel for where the players were. FZ said he wasn't anti numbers but wanted to be as prepared as possible. then Young hired Bochy. Texas is closer to Tennessee so it worked out for him and his family. From the Athletic: Perhaps it’s more instructive to revisit what Bochy said in 2019: “Sometimes you just know it’s time, and it’s as simple as that. I’ve got no other plans or agenda. I’ve done a lot of managing with my gut, and my gut feeling just told me, ‘You know what, it’s time.’ Whether the team needs to hear another voice or I needed a break, it was just my time to step down. And I’m good with it, I really am.”So technically Bochy was not forced out but FZ made it difficult for him to stay. In Zaidi's words: “I almost now look back and say, like, ‘Should I have lied on the tracks and tried getting him to stay?'” Zaidi said, via Andrew Baggarly of The Athletic. “It just didn’t even seem like it was an option at the time. It almost seemed disrespectful for me to try to talk him out of something that at the time he felt like doing.” And having to deal with an army of analytics stats geeks is definitely too much. So FZ technically did not force Bochy out but was not bending over backward to keep him. My hope for Bochy is that he will be around to get inducted to Cooperstown and under his own power. I don't want them to wait until after he's gone to induct him because he deserves all the accolades and tributes while he is around. I'm not suggesting they had security escort Bochy out of the building, but the fact is, he wasn't offered a contract to stay. They brought in new executives and it was no secret that analytic GMs like to micromanage the team on the field as well. We also know analytic GMs like to have a manager who's on board with that strategy, and who does as he's told. Now, I suppose Bochy could've said he was totally fine with the new situation and could've asked to stick around, but we knew that wasn't going to happen, and from what it sounds like Farhan and Baer knew that wasn't going to happen either. Everything you and I just mentioned rolled up into one is essentially the definition of being "pushed out." Anything more than that would've just been considered being fired. |
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Post by reedonly on Dec 17, 2023 13:09:29 GMT -5
It is everyone saying things without saying it. Bochy didn't want to deal with Zaidi and analytics, Zaidi made it too difficult for him to stay and wanted a guy who would dance to his strings. Both sides get to not say anything harmful. FZ got what he wanted.
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