The Problem

[klaiggeb]

Reed calls most of our problems, "the process," and I would be hard pressed to disagree.

I've been around the game a long...long...LONG time, as a player, coach and a fan.

I've seen many Giant teams go through stretches where runs were hard to come by.

The 2010, 2012, and 2014 teams (especially that 2010 group) really went through a ton of lean times, causing Kuip to say: "Giant's baseball; Torture!"

But none of those 3 teams fielded a line up like this group.

Yeah, Yaz is down, but Wade, Estrada, JD, Conforto, Haniger, and Pederson...(just to name the vets) that's a LOT OF THUMP!

But this team continually has difficult times with most average, or below average pitchers. As we did in these last 2 games. We should have scored a LOT more runs, especially against Thursday's lefty.


Now yesterday's loss was, for the most part, not the fault of the bats, but rather, Captain, I'm smarter 'n you are Ego so never question what I'm doings, ridiculous pitching plan.

Why in the world would you NOT start Wood, and then NOT bring him in 2nd?

The excuse I heard today was, "well, AZ packed the line up with Right Handers.


Really. And do they seriously believe teams DON'T DO THAT WHEN HE STARTS?


That is absolutely ASININE logic! Asinine!

It's logic that I would expect from a 10 year old... or a manager who is so into sabermetrics he can't see what's right in front of him.

I can't think of even ONE reason for yesterday's game to have been a bullpen game using an opener. Not one.

And then to bring in guys who are far better served starting than relieving...it just confuses me beyond belief.



But that aside, and these last 2 games aside, am I the ONLY one sick and fed up with team's constant failures at the plate?

Even yesterday, AGAIN, RISP, less than 2 out... and too often we failed to score.


Now I'll be fair; Haniger HAMMERED some balls over 400 feet that got caught.

And we hit A LOT of balls right at people. I keep saying we have had incredible bad luck, but no one agrees with me.


But how can we be the ONLY TEAM I SEE that continually has this same problem?

And let's be honest, that has been a problem for our team for ALL of Kapler's years with us.


Reed likely is right; it is the process.


Far too much emphasis on sabermetrics;

Far too much KAPLER NOT UNDERSTANDING how pitchers think and feel, for this to be a coincidence.

He had a good team in Philly and couldn't win.

He has another one, Stripling and Manaea aside, now... and he's not winning.





More STUPID base running (see JD Davis last night) under him than ANY SF manager that I've observed in the last 30 years.

The list goes on and on and on and on.



Yeah, Reed, you're right; it's the process. The process which is a BY PRODUCT of our manager.

[reedonly]

I don't know why but most of the sabermetric types act like they are new and cutting edge but the problem is is that they are all utilizing the same sets of data and all act the same ways. Bruce Bochy and Dusty Baker are said to be old school but you can bet that they had access to all of the same data. The secret is found in the song "The Gambler" where you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. The more successful managers know when to not go with the data and know when to manage more unpredictably. Three very successful NBA coaches just got the axe (two of them just won NBA titles) and it baffles me the Giants' managment tolerates GK and how the team's mouthpieces seem to give him a pass. All the spreadsheets and tablets don't make anyone smarter than anyone else but it likely transforms GK from being a bad manager to being average.

One thing about baseball nowadays is that with computers and social media, trade secrets don’t stay as secrets as long as it did before. A team can have an edge one year and the next season, all the rest of the teams will copycat. FZ and GK may have been smarter in 2021 but that edge is now long gone.

[klaiggeb]

Very good analogy about the Gambler!

Certainly appropriate

Though I'm not sure I'd stick Dusty in the same class as Boch.

[reedonly]

Dusty is not as strategic as Bochy but he is better at relating with his players. I mentioned recently that Dusty said that BOchy is harder to manage against because all the sabermetric guys manage the same way and Bochy is more unpredictable.

[klaiggeb]

Not questioning Dusty's ability to relate to players, but I have a big issue with the way he runs his pitching staff. Bruce Bochy never had that problem, which doesn't mean I didn't disagree with him, but he did well

[reedonly]

I thought Bochy would have difficulty working with new rules like the pitch clock and the pitchers being required to throw to three batters. Instead, it seems that he embraced the new rules. While he was away, he saw the rules from the perspective of a fan so he has that fan perspective.

[klaiggeb]

Only manager I thought was even close to Boch, was Roger Craig.

He won with very, VERY inferior talent, IMHO.

His starters NEVER brought to the table what Cain, Lincecum, Bum and Vogey did.

Poor Roger was saddled with the likes of LaCoss and Kelly Downs who NEVER developed as I thought he would.

Yeah, he had Robinson, Rueschel and Garrelts, but outside of Rueschel, NONE of those guys were in Cain's, Bum's or Lincecum's class. I'd rank him just above Vogey

[Islandboagie]

I liked Roger Craig, but he had an obsession with "pitch to contact" veteran pitchers. He kept Hammaker, Downs, Reuchel, and LaCoss around far too long, which stunted any growth we may have seen from some of our younger arms.

[Islandboagie]

Add Don Robinson to that list as well.

[reedonly]

I don't remember those pitchers truly blocking anybody at the time. They were not that deep in pitching in the 80s. the young guys at the time were Trevor Wilson, Mark Davis, and Mark Grant. I seem to remember a lot of pitchers developing sore arms and the writers were blaming Craig's use of the splitfinger. Craig and Rosen were working with what they had and that was leftover from the Haller-Davenport era.

[klaiggeb]

I agree, Reed. I can't recall anyone being blocked at all.

And I think history has proven Craig's critics wrong.

Look at all the pitchers now who throw tons of splitters. Cobb leads that list, I think, by far.

and he keeps getting better.

[Islandboagie]

Reed- I don't remember those pitchers truly blocking anybody at the time. They were not that deep in pitching in the 80s. the young guys at the time were Trevor Wilson, Mark Davis, and Mark Grant.

Boagie- I don't think they blocked anyone of significance like a Lincecum or Bumgarner, but we did have some younger arms that were never really given a shot because of the sub par veteran rotation Craig wanted to stick with. A handful of younger arms were promoted then asked to sit in the bullpen not getting enough innings in. After a while of doing that, a few of them were asked to start out of necessity and they were the ones that ended up blowing out their arms. Trevor Wilson being one.

[Islandboagie]

Boly- And I think history has proven Craig's critics wrong.

Look at all the pitchers now who throw tons of splitters. Cobb leads that list, I think, by far.

and he keeps getting better.

Boagie- I wouldn't consider myself a Craig critic, I was a big fan of Roger Craig. Outside of Bochy he's my favorite Giants manager. But at the same time I'm a realist. The fact is we didn't compete a number of years and he still kept running out the same veteran guys over and over again when we could have been trying to develop some of the younger arms.

[reedonly]

The Roger Craig era was about 30-35 years ago so I may be mis-remembering things. I think one of the guys you might be referring to is Mike Remlinger, who was a highly touted pitcher who was supposed to have really electric stuff, but never made it with the Giants. Trevor Wilson was one of the guys who stuck around but I remember him as being wild, most of the time. Davis, Grant, Mulholland, and Cook were used in trades for Dravecky, Lefferts, Mitchell, and Bedrosian. Remlinger and Mitchell were traded for Bill Swift, Jackson, and Burba. I'm not sure if it was Craig's preference for the guys he had or if Rosen traded them off. At any rate, they might not have won their division in 87 or the NL in 89 if they didn't make those trades. I liked this period of Giants baseball because while they may not have been the most talented, for the most part, they played hard.

[Islandboagie]

You may be right, perhaps Rosen preferred the veterans and Craig just made the best of what he got.

Although, I believe Garrelts was misused most of his career. After '86 he should have been a lock as a starter.

Mulholland came up in '86 then was demoted for 2 years before getting called up again, and when he was, he was used in the pen. It's only when he got traded to Philadelphia where he got steady innings.

Trevor Wilson went from just a few bullpen outings and spot starts to pitching 200+ innings.

As much as I hate to say it, I think Craig also mismanaged Dravecky's return after cancer. Dravecky should have started slow and worked his way up. The guy pitched 8 innings his first game back after his cancer surgery. My only guess is that Dravecky was given such a long rope because he was a veteran.

While I liked Craig a lot, I just think he could've groomed some of the younger guys a little better and held more of the veterans accountable.

[reedonly]

That evening in MOntreal was one of the worst in Giants history.

I think what happened was a combination of a lot of things. Dravecky opted for cryosurgery to remove his tumor. I think this appealed to him because it would preserve the musculature of the arm and is less invasive but one of the side effects is that it makes the surrounding bones more brittle. Also, there is the risk of leaving behind cancer cells. Dravecky pushed himself very hard to get back and Craig needed innings, so he pitches 8 innings in Cincinnati and goes against Montreal.

If what happened to Dravecky took place in 2023, I think they might have approached things differently. Now that we are concerned about pitch counts and have medical teams on board. Also, I'm thinking that the re-appearance of the tumor would have been caught earlier. There is no one preferred treatment for bone tumors and may involve some combination of surgery, radiation, localized chemotherapy, or even laser or electro therapy. There are a lot of "what-ifs" and it was very unfortunate. I suspect that because of the cryosurgery, if Dravecky doesn't go 8 innings in Cincinnati, the snapping of the humerus would have taken place sooner or later becuse of the stress of pitching.

[Islandboagie]

Reed- I suspect that because of the cryosurgery, if Dravecky doesn't go 8 innings in Cincinnati, the snapping of the humerus would have taken place sooner or later becuse of the stress of pitching.

Boagie- That's probably true. But the first game wasn't in Cincinnati, it was against the Reds but we were at home. I know that because I was there. I criticize the handling of it now, but boy what a performance that was. Even as a 12 year old kid I remember saying "they can't keep running him out there, can they?" But he kept coming out.

I saw Dave in Scottsdale at a driving range years later and expressed to him how much that game meant to me then and still does now.

[reedonly]

This is part of mis remembering because I remember he received ovation after ovation from the home fans but I placed it in Cincinnati.  Glad you had a chance to tell Dave how you were affected by the game.  Very inspirational.  

[reedonly]

Saddened to read this morning that Roger Craig has passed.

[Islandboagie]

I learned the news last night, sad indeed. Despite my recent comments about his handling of the pitching staffs, I still considered him #2 behind Boch as my favorite Giants manager. He was the manager when I became a fan in '86, so a little of my childhood died last night too. I hope he gets a proper send off on Friday, he certainly deserves it.

[klaiggeb]

I truly loved to Roger Craig as a manager. I thought he did so much with so little. Very saddened to hear the news

[reedonly]

Will Clark was talking about the way Craig worked with Garrelts. Apparently Garrelts was a shy guy before Craig got to him and Clark credited Craig for teaching Garrelts to have more of an Attitude when he pitched as well as teaching him about the split.