Dead Wood

[klaiggeb]

It's the end of June and almost July, and, IMHO, time to move out more deadwood.

Consider: We gave deals to Crawford, Ruff and DesClafani that, though they weren't tons of money, was likely more than they would have gotten elsewhere.

In return, the Giants have gotten, well, very little.

Crawford has been awful all year long at the plate, and his defense has slipped by more than just a notch with him booting plays we've seen him make hundreds of times.

Ruf is a below average to poor fielding 1B man, and he's not hit worth a darn all year long.

DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

Lyttle was just sent down, Longoria has been basically useless since his return, and the same goes for La Stella.

Thus, the title of this thread; Dead Wood.

As in, "it's time to get rid of a bunch of dead wood."and just move on.


I posted yesterday that teams that win have "it."

This team, as I said, can't spell "it."


I've held off posting this for over a month now, but what I see is a team that lacks chemistry at every level.

They might all be nice guys and all that, but they don't jell. They just don't.


If we aren't going to win, and we aren't, time to jettison pieces other teams likely would want, Crawford topping that list, and move on.

Roll out the kids, let them get some experience and move forward.


I think it was boagie who posted that last year's abberition likely set this team's development BACK, because it gave a false picture of hope when there really isn't any with this aging time.


Now do I think Farhan will actually move, Crawford, Ruff, La Stella and Longoria?

Nope.

Not a chance.

I think he's going to delude himself into thinking that we aren't winning due to so many injuries.

Yes, that has had some effect, but it is NOT the reason.

The reason, to me, anyway, is simple:

Players UNDER PERFORMING.

And on that list I have these players.

Crawford
Ruff
Longoria
La Stella
Slater
DesClafani
Wood
Lyttle
Rogers
Alvarez

That's a list with way too many veterans on it. Way toooooooo many.

Farhan has the ax, and now is the time to use it.

[reedonly]

As I suspected, Crawford has been playing with three or four injuries. The bone bruise was one thing but also a forearm and quadraceps issue. The IL stint is being looked on as a reset.

[reedonly]

To be honest, no one wants players who cost too much or are too old. Nobody jumped on them the last three years and I do not expect that anyone wants them now. I think the only ones he will be able to move will be the pitchers and especially the ones that do not make too much. Maybe Brebbia or Leone gets moved.

[klaiggeb]

Jun 27, 2022 15:09:36 GMT -5 reedonly said:

To be honest, no one wants players who cost too much or are too old. Nobody jumped on them the last three yers and I do not expect that anyone wants them now. I think the only ones he will be able to move will be the pitchers and especially the ones that do not make too much. Maybe Brebbia or Leone gets moved.

Reed, I disagree. Roger and I argued this all the time and he had your point of view.

I don't expect much of ANYTHING back for them. I want to move them to clear space so they can come to the big club and get experience.

It is senseless, and self defeating for our team's future to keep them.


As to Crawford...I'm sorry, I'm not buying that he's been hurt all year.

I'm just not.

If that's the story the Giants are shoveling, so be it.

He started slowly, never improved, and then went down hill.

Now....IF they want me to believe that he got hurt a couple of times en route to June... that's a different story.

But it does NOT justify his slow bat speed right out of the gate, and multiple botched plays in the field.

[reedonly]

Right now, the Giants are a half game out of the final wild card spot. You know they're just going to wait until all the injured guys get back and make a run for it. Unless they totally fall off the cliff they are not going to tear everything down. Boagie was right in the sense that the 107 win season threw off the natural progression. Hopefully they don't trade away some good pieces in a futile attempt.

[klaiggeb]

I understand what you're saying, and you are right. If they are close they will make a run for it.

But from my perspective, that's where the rub is. I don't think we're going to be close enough to make a run for it but that won't matter to management, they're going to go do it anyway, trading away minor Leaguers for someone who might get them into a wild-card spot with a far outside chance to make the World Series.

Management is just delaying the inevitable.

Then again, this could be their plan all along. Tread water until the kids are closer to ready while in the meantime, the put forth the illusion that they actually have a chance to make it to the World Series.

[reedonly]

Jun 27, 2022 16:01:25 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Jun 27, 2022 15:09:36 GMT -5 reedonly said:

To be honest, no one wants players who cost too much or are too old. Nobody jumped on them the last three yers and I do not expect that anyone wants them now. I think the only ones he will be able to move will be the pitchers and especially the ones that do not make too much. Maybe Brebbia or Leone gets moved.

Reed, I disagree. Roger and I argued this all the time and he had your point of view.

I don't expect much of ANYTHING back for them. I want to move them to clear space so they can come to the big club and get experience.

It is senseless, and self defeating for our team's future to keep them.


As to Crawford...I'm sorry, I'm not buying that he's been hurt all year.

I'm just not.

If that's the story the Giants are shoveling, so be it.

He started slowly, never improved, and then went down hill.

Now....IF they want me to believe that he got hurt a couple of times en route to June... that's a different story.

But it does NOT justify his slow bat speed right out of the gate, and multiple botched plays in the field.

Other teams will not just take Giants' dead wood for nothing.  If the dead wood cannot contribute anything of value to the Giants, the other teams will require monetary compensation to assume those salaries.  Nowadays, no one wants an old experienced glove or an old pinch hitter off the bench.  The reason why they don't want them is because they cannot be optioned.  Farhan is not the only guy doing the roster churn.  The way that modern baseball has become, the flexible roster space is more valuable to a team than to keep a marginal veteran on the bench.  As such, unless they are pitchers, the only way to get rid of some of these guys is to release them.  No more trading a player for a bucket of baseballs because the team that gets the player loses a valuable roster spot. 

[reedonly]

Jun 27, 2022 12:32:43 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

It's the end of June and almost July, and, IMHO, time to move out more deadwood.

Consider: We gave deals to Crawford, Ruff and DesClafani that, though they weren't tons of money, was likely more than they would have gotten elsewhere.

In return, the Giants have gotten, well, very little.

Crawford has been awful all year long at the plate, and his defense has slipped by more than just a notch with him booting plays we've seen him make hundreds of times.

Ruf is a below average to poor fielding 1B man, and he's not hit worth a darn all year long.

DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

Lyttle was just sent down, Longoria has been basically useless since his return, and the same goes for La Stella.

Thus, the title of this thread; Dead Wood.

As in, "it's time to get rid of a bunch of dead wood."and just move on.


I posted yesterday that teams that win have "it."

This team, as I said, can't spell "it."


I've held off posting this for over a month now, but what I see is a team that lacks chemistry at every level.

They might all be nice guys and all that, but they don't jell. They just don't.


If we aren't going to win, and we aren't, time to jettison pieces other teams likely would want, Crawford topping that list, and move on.

Roll out the kids, let them get some experience and move forward.


I think it was boagie who posted that last year's abberition likely set this team's development BACK, because it gave a false picture of hope when there really isn't any with this aging time.


Now do I think Farhan will actually move, Crawford, Ruff, La Stella and Longoria?

Nope.

Not a chance.

I think he's going to delude himself into thinking that we aren't winning due to so many injuries.

Yes, that has had some effect, but it is NOT the reason.

The reason, to me, anyway, is simple:

Players UNDER PERFORMING.

And on that list I have these players.

Crawford
Ruff
Longoria
La Stella
Slater
DesClafani
Wood
Lyttle
Rogers
Alvarez

That's a list with way too many veterans on it. Way toooooooo many.

Farhan has the ax, and now is the time to use it.

Your list might be a bit conservative.  Cobb, Yaz, McGee have also been underperforming.

[klaiggeb]

I agree. I thought about putting cob on the list but didn't because he's missed so much time due to injuries

And you are right,I should have included Yaz

[reedonly]

One thing that could trigger a foolish trade is that the schedule gets easier in the second half with a lot of games against Diamondbacks and Rockies.

The way i think they should look at it is that the bar is not set on the Dodgers. The bar is now set at Yankees, Astros, Dodgers, Padres, Mets, and Braves. If they think they can compete with all those teams, then go for it otherwise, don't do it.   To be honest, those teams are on a different level.   I think they can compete with the Dodgers but not the other teams. 


I know they are banking on return from injury by Wade Jr and others and they have to be honest and say that the team is too old and would be one and done at most.  There are too many pieces that need to get healthy.  Its not just Wade Jr, but its also Crawford, Belt, DeSclafani, Cobb, Gonzalez, Junis, Longoria, LaStella, Byrd.  Some of the guys who are not on the IL probably would still be on the IL during the course of a normal season.  As all of you know, when a person gets to a certain age, it takes a lot longer to heal an injury, if ever.  

[reedonly]

Jun 27, 2022 23:10:02 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Jun 27, 2022 12:32:43 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

It's the end of June and almost July, and, IMHO, time to move out more deadwood.

Consider: We gave deals to Crawford, Ruff and DesClafani that, though they weren't tons of money, was likely more than they would have gotten elsewhere.

In return, the Giants have gotten, well, very little.

Crawford has been awful all year long at the plate, and his defense has slipped by more than just a notch with him booting plays we've seen him make hundreds of times.

Ruf is a below average to poor fielding 1B man, and he's not hit worth a darn all year long.

DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

Lyttle was just sent down, Longoria has been basically useless since his return, and the same goes for La Stella.

Thus, the title of this thread; Dead Wood.

As in, "it's time to get rid of a bunch of dead wood."and just move on.


I posted yesterday that teams that win have "it."

This team, as I said, can't spell "it."


I've held off posting this for over a month now, but what I see is a team that lacks chemistry at every level.

They might all be nice guys and all that, but they don't jell. They just don't.


If we aren't going to win, and we aren't, time to jettison pieces other teams likely would want, Crawford topping that list, and move on.

Roll out the kids, let them get some experience and move forward.


I think it was boagie who posted that last year's abberition likely set this team's development BACK, because it gave a false picture of hope when there really isn't any with this aging time.


Now do I think Farhan will actually move, Crawford, Ruff, La Stella and Longoria?

Nope.

Not a chance.

I think he's going to delude himself into thinking that we aren't winning due to so many injuries.

Yes, that has had some effect, but it is NOT the reason.

The reason, to me, anyway, is simple:

Players UNDER PERFORMING.

And on that list I have these players.

Crawford
Ruff
Longoria
La Stella
Slater
DesClafani
Wood
Lyttle
Rogers
Alvarez

That's a list with way too many veterans on it. Way toooooooo many.

Farhan has the ax, and now is the time to use it.

Your list might be a bit conservative.  Cobb, Yaz, McGee have also been underperforming.

Estes and Kuiper have been harping on this for a couple of weeks now.  They mentioned that most of the losses are close ones and they cite that there are way too many 90 foot mistakes, either by walk or fielding miscue and good teams like the Braves know how to take advantage of them.   Having Crawford out or underperforming or having inexperienced second basemen has been a huge part of this.  

[reedonly]

Boly: DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

There is a youtube video showing the exact play where he was hurt. He then missed a couple of starts afterwards. They knew he was hurt and still signed him to a three year contract to be the newest Jeff Samardzdija.

[reedonly]

Jun 28, 2022 10:37:45 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Boly: DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

There is a youtube video showing the exact play where he was hurt. He then missed a couple of starts afterwards. They knew he was hurt and still signed him to a three year contract to be the newest Jeff Samardzdija.

rog spent most of last autumn trying to convince us that deSclafani was by definition a number two starter if we could not find 60 better starting pitchers than deSclafani.  Trouble is, now Anthony is ranked about 195 in ERA and WHIP so one could probably make the case that he is one of the very worst pitchers in baseball that is not on the IL.   If he did not have a guaranteed contract, we could also argue that he should not be on a major league roster. 

Krukow was discussing his bad Sunday outing on his segment yesterday and felt it was not as bad as it looked.  Krukow saw a lot more snap and finish to the pitches than the previous start but the problem with deSclafani is that they are essentially doing rehab at the major league level and trying to lengthen his outings by about one inning at a time.  The trouble with this approach is that it will not work if the opposing team has a long grinding inning.  My feeling is that if he's not ready, he's not going to get ready at the major league level.  He's not as bad of a pitcher as his number indicate but he obviously is not ready to go now.   I think the consensus of the board would have been to have deSclafani take as much time as he needed to rehab and to have Sam Long learn how to lengthen his outings in his place.  The results may be similar but better for the long term.  

[klaiggeb]

Totally agree.

Sam long needs to be stretched out, because from what I've seen he has big league stuff.

Anthony should not be doing his rehab at the big league level. It's hurting him and hurting the club

[reedonly]

You singled out Crawford and he has said that he was really affected by the lockout. he had some injuries he had to deal with and he intended to train with the team at the Scottsdale location (which is not too far from his winter home). He was not allowed to contact the medical personnel and he said the lockout caused him to lose a lot of the muscle memory that he acquired last year with the coaching staff. When he got to the abbreviated spring training, he complained that he was back to square one whereas if they were not locked out, he could have hit the ground running. The lockout is hitting all teams but the Giants more so because they are an older team. I think that's partly true along with Crawford having his final spurt year. You will not see Farhan jettison Crawford because he is the all-time greatest Giant at that position and Farhan recognizes the value of legacy players.

You would think that its just happening to the Giants but it hit the Padres, also. Remember when Tatis Jr had the bike accident? Because of the lockout, he was not allowed access to the Padres' medical team. So, double whammy.

[klaiggeb]

You are likely correct, but I just don't see these kinds of afflictions affecting any other team but us in this magnitude.

[reedonly]

The Giants are the have the oldest average age in the majors so it should be expected that all the underperforming and injuries would hit them harder than most other teams. Even the guys who one might think are young guys are about to hit 30. That is why what happens in the minors is important because they need to use the minor league system as a pipeline to the majors like they did when Buster, Lincecum, Cain, and Bum came up. I am happy that they're trying to incorporate guys like Estrada, Wynns, Gonzalez, and Long but the guys in the system like Ramos and Bart need to step it up. I realize that the pandemic put a crimp on the minor leagues in 2020 but we are getting away from that now and the Giants should be a little more aggressive in the area of phasing in the youngsters.

[klaiggeb]

Jun 30, 2022 15:59:35 GMT -5 reedonly said:

The Giants are the have the oldest average age in the majors so it should be expected that all the underperforming and injuries would hit them harder than most other teams. Even the guys who one might think are young guys are about to hit 30. That is why what happens in the minors is important because they need to use the minor league system as a pipeline to the majors like they did when Buster, Lincecum, Cain, and Bum came up. I am happy that they're trying to incorporate guys like Estrada, Wynns, Gonzalez, and Long but the guys in the system like Ramos and Bart need to step it up. I realize that the pandemic put a crimp on the minor leagues in 2020 but we are getting away from that now and the Giants should be a little more aggressive in the area of phasing in the youngsters.

Agreed, Reed. We should be more aggressive but for some reason, Farhan isn't... and I don't get that.

[reedonly]

Jun 27, 2022 20:18:07 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Right now, the Giants are a half game out of the final wild card spot. You know they're just going to wait until all the injured guys get back and make a run for it. Unless they totally fall off the cliff they are not going to tear everything down. Boagie was right in the sense that the 107 win season threw off the natural progression. Hopefully they don't trade away some good pieces in a futile attempt.

Right now, the Giants probably are looking at a playoffs which has Dodgers, Mets, Brewers, Cardinals, Braves in it. To be honest, unless they get really lucky, they would sneak in and not get past the first round. In the Athletic, Bisbee feels that they may be over-achieving not under achieving. The runs per game is among the best in the majors but every other hitting metric is around the 50th percentile so Bisbee feels that runs/game is more of an outlier. The trade piece will be a guy that cannot make the 40 man roster who they might otherwise lose in the Rule V draft anyway. Baggarly thinks Santos, Rodriguez, or Teng might be the most likely chips.

[reedonly]

Jun 28, 2022 10:37:45 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Boly: DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

There is a youtube video showing the exact play where he was hurt. He then missed a couple of starts afterwards. They knew he was hurt and still signed him to a three year contract to be the newest Jeff Samardzdija.

www.mlb.com/news/anthony-desclafani-hurt-exits-in-second-inning

[reedonly]

Jul 1, 2022 16:42:05 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Jun 28, 2022 10:37:45 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Boly: DesClafani was hurt, I get that, but if I understood what Reed posted, the Giants KNEW he was hurt last year... and he never adequately healed and/or rehabbed.

There is a youtube video showing the exact play where he was hurt. He then missed a couple of starts afterwards. They knew he was hurt and still signed him to a three year contract to be the newest Jeff Samardzdija.

www.mlb.com/news/anthony-desclafani-hurt-exits-in-second-inning

DeSclafani shut down on the IL again until at least the All Star Break.  He seems to have hit the wall in his recovery.  They said he saw a specialist in Green Bay who saw no structural damage but this is concerning.  From Kapler's comments, it looks like DeSclafani tried to let the injury rest during the lockout and then he felt discomfort during spring training.  

Kapler:  “I think there’s real concern there,” Kapler said. He’s battled through this for a really long time. He’s pushed himself. He’s rehabbed. He’s done everything he possibly can and he’s still kind of hitting the wall. That’s not the best signal, right? When you’re not able to get over the hump and feel like the most athletic, effective version of yourself as a pitcher. And I think we’ve gotten to a place now where we have to protect him.”

I'm not convinced that DeSclafani did a lot of rehab during the lockout because teams were not allowed contact with players, and that included trainers and doctors.  I suspect he felt discomfort when he tried to ramp up in spring training and could not push it further.  This is a big blow because the team was expecting deSclafani to be an innings eater up until 2024.  I still don't know what the Giants were thinking if they knew he was injured as far back as last August.  Even though a specialist thinks that he doesn't need surgery, the sooner the better might be the most prudent plan. 

[reedonly]

Longoria has been getting his BA up but I hear he is considering retirement after this season. He is finding it more difficult to spend time away from family.

[klaiggeb]

Jul 2, 2022 8:57:41 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Longoria has been getting his BA up but I hear he is considering retirement after this season. He is finding it more difficult to spend time away from family.

Personally, I'm fine with that. Though I like his glove, I've been very unhappy about his inconsistent offense for a while now.

Vossler's glove isn't anywhere near as good, but for now, I'd take him over Longoria.


IF Longo retires, however, that leaves a huge hole at 3B. Though I like Vossler now, I don't see him as a long term replacement.

[reedonly]

If Longoria retired, he would be leaving $13 million on the table for 2023. That's not a huge sum but it is not exactly chump change. The past few weeks have been a steady climb back so he just needed a few weeks to get his delayed spring training work in.  Vossler is decent and if Vossler does not pan out, they have Villar doing well in AAA and the long term solution may be Casey Schmitt in A.

[klaiggeb]

Jul 2, 2022 11:00:34 GMT -5 reedonly said:

If Longoria retired, he would be leaving $13 million on the table for 2023. That's not a huge sum but it is not exactly chump change. The past few weeks have been a steady climb back so he just needed a few weeks to get his delayed spring training work in.  Vossler is decent and if Vossler does not pan out, they have Villar doing well in AAA and the long term solution may be Casey Schmitt in A.

Unless I'm reading things incorrectly, I think Vossler is 28 or 29; older than I thought he was.

His defense, from my observation, is average to below average.

Offensively, I see a ton of holes... but I still prefer him over Longo.

I don't see Evan walking away from that cash either.

And I'm glad to know about Villa an Schmitt.

But what bothers me... no, ticks me off, is that Farhan simply will not give the kids the experience they need to SEE for themselves what it takes to play at the big league level.


We're only a game or so back in the wild card race, but if he REALLY thinks this team has what it takes to advance past one round...he's delusional.

As in "Put the crack pipe down, and step away from the table" delusional.

Last night was another PERFECT example of this bunch; chance to get out of the inning and Doval screws up a play.

Every night, or virtually every night, it's the same thing over and over and over... the names change but the incompetence does not.


I still say, move Ruf(and with his power potential it can be done) and move Flores. I would hate to see his versatility go but we NEED to get younger and FASTER!

Both of these guys are base cloggers and double plays just waiting to happen.

Saw it again with Ruf last night.

Kapler is wrong; Ruf is done or nearly done. Last year was his FSY, just like it was for Aubrey Huff.


Get younger, get faster and do both NOW.

But of course, we won't.

[reedonly]

Vosler is 28 and about to turn 29 so he's not a spring chicken. I like what he brings to the team but I realize that his .270 BA might be pretty much what he is capable of and not to expect drastic improvement with regular playing time because of his age.  He may not supplant Longoria but I see him possibly doing the Wilmer Flores role.  They keep using him against right handers because he hits left handed but his splits don't indicate a platoon advantage. 

[reedonly]

Jul 2, 2022 10:21:13 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Jul 2, 2022 8:57:41 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Longoria has been getting his BA up but I hear he is considering retirement after this season. He is finding it more difficult to spend time away from family.

Personally, I'm fine with that. Though I like his glove, I've been very unhappy about his inconsistent offense for a while now.

Vossler's glove isn't anywhere near as good, but for now, I'd take him over Longoria.

IF Longo retires, however, that leaves a huge hole at 3B. Though I like Vossler now, I don't see him as a long term replacement.

Last week, Longoria was written up by Susan Slusser and retirement was definitely on the table Buster Posey style but when he feels good, he says he can go another five years.  His contract is now a club option for $13 million in 2023 or a buyout for $5 million so I expect the club will re-sign him (the $8 million difference is not that great) and see how Schmitt progresses.  I see Vosler and Villar as the bridge between Longoria and Schmitt but I think they hope Schmitt will be the long term answer.  The thing that decides it will probably be family.  Some families who have older kids have learned to live life without the player but the case with Buster and Longoria is similar in that they have young children so I think the way it plays out is that the Giants will take up the option and Longoria's family decides whether to continue or not.  

[klaiggeb]

Totally understand family needs, and I'm praying Longo chooses family over playing.

[reedonly]

Jul 1, 2022 22:03:19 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Jul 1, 2022 16:42:05 GMT -5 reedonly said:

www.mlb.com/news/anthony-desclafani-hurt-exits-in-second-inning

DeSclafani shut down on the IL again until at least the All Star Break.  He seems to have hit the wall in his recovery.  They said he saw a specialist in Green Bay who saw no structural damage but this is concerning.  From Kapler's comments, it looks like DeSclafani tried to let the injury rest during the lockout and then he felt discomfort during spring training.  

Kapler:  “I think there’s real concern there,” Kapler said. He’s battled through this for a really long time. He’s pushed himself. He’s rehabbed. He’s done everything he possibly can and he’s still kind of hitting the wall. That’s not the best signal, right? When you’re not able to get over the hump and feel like the most athletic, effective version of yourself as a pitcher. And I think we’ve gotten to a place now where we have to protect him.”

I'm not convinced that DeSclafani did a lot of rehab during the lockout because teams were not allowed contact with players, and that included trainers and doctors.  I suspect he felt discomfort when he tried to ramp up in spring training and could not push it further.  This is a big blow because the team was expecting deSclafani to be an innings eater up until 2024.  I still don't know what the Giants were thinking if they knew he was injured as far back as last August.  Even though a specialist thinks that he doesn't need surgery, the sooner the better might be the most prudent plan. 

They just announced ankle surgery a week from next Tuesday.  That puts him away till 2023.

[Islandboagie]

Good.