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Idiocracy
Mar 5, 2022 12:09:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Mar 5, 2022 12:09:26 GMT -5
You won't like this, but I tend to agree with your wife, Boly. It is apples and oranges. In baseball, the products people are paying for are the players on the field, so the players have a lot more pull than the average worker for a corporation. Most employees can easily be replaced, whereas someone like Brandon Crawford can only be equally replaced by only a handful of people in the world. This gives the players a lot of power to determine their own paycheck.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 5, 2022 16:27:28 GMT -5
Here are the prospects who have agreed to deals with the Giants in the 2022 international signing period: Ryan Reckley, SS, Bahamas -- $2,200,000 Juan Perez, C, Venezuela -- $1,100,000 Dennys Riera, SS, Venezuela -- $700,000 Alessandro Duran, C, Venezuela -- $397,500 Erick Arosemena, CF, Panama -- $369,700 Moises De La Rosa, OF, Dominican Republic -- $272,500 Alfonso Perez, RHS, Dominican Republic -- $97,500 Mauricio Estrella, RHS, Dominican Republic -- $10,000 Carlos Gomez, RHS, Colombia -- $10,000 Audie Jimenez, SS, Venezuela -- $10,000 Deifran Yriarte, RHS, Venezuela -- $10,000 This is just the international players, 7 of 11 signed got a bonus of $97.5k or more. 6 got $272.5k or more. That's a lot of money for a kid. One sad example was Angel Villalona. He could barely read and write but could hit and got a $2 million bonus from the Giants. I guess that $2 million made him a big shot in his country because he even had his own seat at a local bar. However, he was said to have killed a man in the Domincan and potentially could have spent 20 years in prison. He ended up paying the victim's family and the witness disappeared so he was added back to the Giants in 2011 and released in 2014. At the time, the Chronicle wrote an article saying that this kind of thing happens to young prospects who come into a lot of money and start flashing the money around. They become targets for the locals and we will probably never know if he really committed murder or if he was just a dumb kid who couldn't handle his money. He has been bouncing around a lot of semi-pro leagues and looked woefully out of shape (very heavy) in 2019. I'm not sure if he ever learned to read or write. Washed up at age 31.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 5, 2022 16:44:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately, there are a lot of examples of players who lost a lot of money. Willie Mays said he was poor early in his career because he spent too much on things like suits and did not know how to save until Herman Franks taught him how to save and not spend so much. I guess when you are young and have a lot of money, you spend helping others or get clothes, cars, and jewelry but it goes away very quickly unless they are smart enough to have a financial planner. Even then, a lot goes to agents and taxes. Its a hard lesson.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 5, 2022 21:20:06 GMT -5
Unfortunately, there are a lot of examples of players who lost a lot of money. Willie Mays said he was poor early in his career because he spent too much on things like suits and did not know how to save until Herman Franks taught him how to save and not spend so much. I guess when you are young and have a lot of money, you spend helping others or get clothes, cars, and jewelry but it goes away very quickly unless they are smart enough to have a financial planner. Even then, a lot goes to agents and taxes. Its a hard lesson. Reed, no question you are correct.
But those were choices the players made.
That can't be a reason to 'give' them more money.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 5, 2022 22:21:01 GMT -5
Reed, my wife worked in the corporate world as President of a subsidiary of a large Health organization.
She and I disagree about this all the time.
Her point is that I can't compare salaries of other places to those of MLB. Apples and Oranges she says.
I couldn't disagree more.
We all live in the same world, same market place, buy the same goods, and thus it's not apples to oranges.
MLB minimum salary is $570,500.
MINIMUM!
Across the USA, the AVERAGE salary is $51,480.
Do the math; that means the AVERAGE American has to work 10 years to make the minimum of what a MLB player earns.
10 freaking years!
I don't disagree that a MLB career tends to be a short one.
Then again, at the MINIMUM, playing just 2 years nets you $115 MILLION!
That's over 20 years wages for the average american.
Choosing to play, or attempt to play in pro sports is a choice.
I CHOOSE to be a teacher who, most people feel are under paid. (For the record, I disagree with that statement)
MY choice.
If I choose to manage a Subway, MY choice.
In neither job will I ever make close to the minimum ML salary.
But it was MY choice to do so, and I knew that salary fact going in.
And Slater and the rest keep talking about a fair deal?
Grow up, Austin and the rest of the players, take off those glasses tinted by meal money and all the other benefits and look at the rest of our country.
Your reality and the reality of what the rest of America has to deal with aren't even close.
The sport is undergoing a huge shift. Baseball was THE thing when I was growing up. Now, its just A thing in an ever growing pool of other things. Too bad we don't get paid what we are worth. You, as a teacher probably contributed more to society than most baseball players.
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Idiocracy
Mar 6, 2022 0:27:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by klaiggeb on Mar 6, 2022 0:27:26 GMT -5
I agree, Reed it is changing big time.
For people my age, not the better.
I just see it as sad.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 6, 2022 10:40:29 GMT -5
Here are the prospects who have agreed to deals with the Giants in the 2022 international signing period: Ryan Reckley, SS, Bahamas -- $2,200,000 Juan Perez, C, Venezuela -- $1,100,000 Dennys Riera, SS, Venezuela -- $700,000 Alessandro Duran, C, Venezuela -- $397,500 Erick Arosemena, CF, Panama -- $369,700 Moises De La Rosa, OF, Dominican Republic -- $272,500 Alfonso Perez, RHS, Dominican Republic -- $97,500 Mauricio Estrella, RHS, Dominican Republic -- $10,000 Carlos Gomez, RHS, Colombia -- $10,000 Audie Jimenez, SS, Venezuela -- $10,000 Deifran Yriarte, RHS, Venezuela -- $10,000 This is just the international players, 7 of 11 signed got a bonus of $97.5k or more. 6 got $272.5k or more. That's a lot of money for a kid. One sad example was Angel Villalona. He could barely read and write but could hit and got a $2 million bonus from the Giants. I guess that $2 million made him a big shot in his country because he even had his own seat at a local bar. However, he was said to have killed a man in the Domincan and potentially could have spent 20 years in prison. He ended up paying the victim's family and the witness disappeared so he was added back to the Giants in 2011 and released in 2014. At the time, the Chronicle wrote an article saying that this kind of thing happens to young prospects who come into a lot of money and start flashing the money around. They become targets for the locals and we will probably never know if he really committed murder or if he was just a dumb kid who couldn't handle his money. He has been bouncing around a lot of semi-pro leagues and looked woefully out of shape (very heavy) in 2019. I'm not sure if he ever learned to read or write. Washed up at age 31. To be honest, those bonuses less than $1 million probably don't go very far. Those players will have to last long enough to hit it big in free agency or need to do some other jobs after baseball. I would not be surprised if the "agents" end up getting finders fees or end up pocketing about half.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 6, 2022 11:07:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately, there are a lot of examples of players who lost a lot of money. Willie Mays said he was poor early in his career because he spent too much on things like suits and did not know how to save until Herman Franks taught him how to save and not spend so much. I guess when you are young and have a lot of money, you spend helping others or get clothes, cars, and jewelry but it goes away very quickly unless they are smart enough to have a financial planner. Even then, a lot goes to agents and taxes. Its a hard lesson. Reed, no question you are correct.
But those were choices the players made.
That can't be a reason to 'give' them more money.Sadly, in other countries, the people that hang around these prospects are just hangers on for the money and don't have the players' best interests at heart. How does Villalona at the age of 20 get his own seat at a bar? How does a bunch of money make a murder rap go away? Villalona is half my age and he's now a fat guy who has likely squandered his bonus. We can take those "choices" for granted but it is much harder to keep it living elsewhere.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 6, 2022 12:27:44 GMT -5
I'm not sure when it became like this where the priorities of society turned over. I guess they consider themselves as elite entertainers and fans happily buy into it. This is not just in the USA because those soccer stars receive a lot of money, also. I can see that a superstar baseball player might justify the cost but the average players probably should not make more than, say, a surgeon. I was not too concerned when Will Clark got his first big contract but I blew a gasket when Steve Buechele, whose career is the very definition of mediocre, got an $11 million contract for hitting .245!
I can see how Slater has a vested interest in the whole process because I think he will be out of baseball by the time he will be eligible to get the big bucks in arbitration. He is our Steve Buechele.
I don't begrudge working people who teach, manage Subways, or anything. Tip my cap to them. Its a challenge to do this stuff on a day in day out basis for 30 years. Maybe its a reflection on our society that a guy who is basically a replacement gets paid so much.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 6, 2022 16:58:40 GMT -5
Reed, my wife worked in the corporate world as President of a subsidiary of a large Health organization.
She and I disagree about this all the time.
Her point is that I can't compare salaries of other places to those of MLB. Apples and Oranges she says.
I couldn't disagree more.
We all live in the same world, same market place, buy the same goods, and thus it's not apples to oranges.
MLB minimum salary is $570,500.
MINIMUM!
Across the USA, the AVERAGE salary is $51,480.
Do the math; that means the AVERAGE American has to work 10 years to make the minimum of what a MLB player earns.
10 freaking years!
I don't disagree that a MLB career tends to be a short one.
Then again, at the MINIMUM, playing just 2 years nets you $115 MILLION!
That's over 20 years wages for the average american.
Choosing to play, or attempt to play in pro sports is a choice.
I CHOOSE to be a teacher who, most people feel are under paid. (For the record, I disagree with that statement)
MY choice.
If I choose to manage a Subway, MY choice.
In neither job will I ever make close to the minimum ML salary.
But it was MY choice to do so, and I knew that salary fact going in.
And Slater and the rest keep talking about a fair deal?
Grow up, Austin and the rest of the players, take off those glasses tinted by meal money and all the other benefits and look at the rest of our country.
Your reality and the reality of what the rest of America has to deal with aren't even close.
I think the problem did not originate with sports but with other entertainment such as music and movies. When guys like Brando and Stevie Wonder started getting those big multi-million dollar contracts, the sports world followed suit. Also, the world puts these guys on a pedestal as role models and these are the kinds of fields where if an average young person wants to go into it, they would have the least chance to succeed. One local teacher even asked Steph Curry not to speak at his school because he did not want kids to emulate him and try to become professional athletes and to take up more realistic professions.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 6, 2022 17:14:34 GMT -5
Unfortunately, there are a lot of examples of players who lost a lot of money. Willie Mays said he was poor early in his career because he spent too much on things like suits and did not know how to save until Herman Franks taught him how to save and not spend so much. I guess when you are young and have a lot of money, you spend helping others or get clothes, cars, and jewelry but it goes away very quickly unless they are smart enough to have a financial planner. Even then, a lot goes to agents and taxes. Its a hard lesson. Reed, no question you are correct.
But those were choices the players made.
That can't be a reason to 'give' them more money.I believe there is now a trend for youngsters to hire financial advisors. Steve Finley, who used to play for the Giants has become a financial advisor. He says that signing bonuses should be treated like a windfall, to be careful not to sign too fast because of tax implications, to watch out for fraud, stop spending on stuff, and learn to say no to people. Its probably a lot harder for these kids from third world countries. link to article about Steve Finley.
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Idiocracy
Mar 8, 2022 9:48:18 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by klaiggeb on Mar 8, 2022 9:48:18 GMT -5
Absolutely true! When you have nothing, come from nothing, and then all the sudden you're swimming and money, and likely don't have a ton of education, that's a prescription for trouble
Good call!
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Post by reedonly on Mar 8, 2022 11:26:41 GMT -5
Absolutely true! When you have nothing, come from nothing, and then all the sudden you're swimming and money, and likely don't have a ton of education, that's a prescription for trouble Good call! Its not just financial. I think there were sexual abuse incidents, as well. Its really primitive in those third world countries as one of the videos I posted had kids and dogs running around on foul ground.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 8, 2022 11:33:02 GMT -5
I agree, Reed. In fact, I stopped attending games back in the late 1990's. I'd rather watch on TV, listen to Kuip and Kruk, and watch the replays. As to the owners and players union...they don't care one inkling for the fans. Not one. Let me put it this way: Both sides think they are nouns, and everyone else is just an adjective. Nouns, as you know, exist just fine without adjectives. But this always brings me back to unions. Greed. It's never, EVER enough, and they hide behind the pretense that what they are doing is "for the workers benefits." No it's not. To paraphrase what Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men. "The law isn't about justice. It's about winning and losing." "Bargaining isn't about what's fair to both sides, it's about how much you can win from the other. Both sides disgust me. From what Krukow was talking about on KNBR this morning. Pitch clock is going to to be in. Defensive shifts will be forced to have two defenders on each side of second base and none on outfield grass. They also mentioned bigger bases which would help to reduce injuries such as the one Max Muncy had last year. No word on the phantom runner in extras. Also, the main hold up is the CBT level but I think they will find middle ground soon. Unfortunately, they will probably go with shortened spring training and I think owners will try to extend lockout two more series (cost savings).
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Post by reedonly on Mar 8, 2022 11:36:53 GMT -5
Saw where the idiots sat down over the weekend and tried to get things settled.
Heck, only 30 PLUS MILLION APART!
Greed vs Ego...probably make a better movie than the last Alien movie.
A good thing that has come out of this is that minor leaguers have reported and the staff can focus on them for the time being. Matos is impressing people (comparisons with Ronald Acuna).
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Post by reedonly on Mar 8, 2022 11:49:07 GMT -5
I have no doubt that Austin Slater is correct; that the owners planned for this moment in time to make it look like the players were holding up negotiations, and thus the but the start of the season in jeopardy. But Austin Slater's statement that the players won't take a subpar deal implies that these people are working for turnips, potatoes, and corn flakes. I was in the teachers union for over 27 years, and what I learned, and what I have always said, coincide. It's never enough for the union. Never. I am not absolving the owners. They are just as much to blame as the players. But for the players to come out and tell the fans that they won't take a subpar deal is rhetoric I would expect from a freaking politician! Tens of thousands of players, who, like me, once dreamed of being in the show here a statement like that didn't see the foolishness, and the absurdity in it. I don't have the exact numbers, but I believe the minimum salary for a major league baseball player is in the mid six-figure range. Now compare that to the average salary for most americans, and they are not even close! To sit there and claim they're getting a subpar deal is ridiculous! I see greed and ego all over this. I know its hard to sympathize with guys who make more than we do for playing sport. I think the players are of the mindset of trying to maximize what they can as payoff for living on poverty wages while they are in the minors and for short playing careers (the average is now 2.7 years). I do understand that Major Leaguers represent about 700 guys and most of those in the minors don't make it so its the uppermost of the toppermost. Also, unless they've hit it big in free agency, most of these guys will have to learn another job after they leave baseball. The bigger names on the team who have had big contracts (Crawford, Belt, Longoria, etc) do not have to worry but I would think Yastrzemski and Wade would likely need to transition into another profession. You can begin to see why Slater is the player rep because he probably will not land a big contract and about a year or two, he'll probably be done. The guy they usually select as a player rep nowadays is a college guy who has had some business classes. Its not necessarily the most skilled or most senior or richest player. Mainly, they do not want a guy who will end up falling asleep during the meetings. I guess that's why its Slater. If not Slater, then it would be a guy like Curt Caseli.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 10, 2022 11:30:46 GMT -5
Absolutely true! When you have nothing, come from nothing, and then all the sudden you're swimming and money, and likely don't have a ton of education, that's a prescription for trouble Good call! Also, I was reading about Pomares and there were hints that people who helped him get out of Cuba got a cut of his bonus as well as a cut going under the table to scouts for an audition. That might have happened to Yasiel Puig, too. As a result, I would think that Pomares actually took home way less than half of his bonus.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 11, 2022 11:35:58 GMT -5
I agree, Reed. In fact, I stopped attending games back in the late 1990's. I'd rather watch on TV, listen to Kuip and Kruk, and watch the replays. As to the owners and players union...they don't care one inkling for the fans. Not one. Let me put it this way: Both sides think they are nouns, and everyone else is just an adjective. Nouns, as you know, exist just fine without adjectives. But this always brings me back to unions. Greed. It's never, EVER enough, and they hide behind the pretense that what they are doing is "for the workers benefits." No it's not. To paraphrase what Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men. "The law isn't about justice. It's about winning and losing." "Bargaining isn't about what's fair to both sides, it's about how much you can win from the other. Both sides disgust me. Okay, so they're going to do a 162 game schedule and three weeks of spring training. This season might be a grind because the first week will be made up with a series of doubleheaders and three days tacked on to the end. Here we go again with a third consecutive abbreviated spring training and another epidemic of muscle pulls and soft tissue injuries. I don't see what they have in that contract that could not have been there three weeks ago. Larry Baer was quoted that the team will be "pretty aggressive" in free agency. That kind of quote tends to bite people in the butt if they don't follow through so we shall see. The team was not at the forefront of negotiations (Detroit, Anaheim, and Cincinnati) but they realize that because of the pandemic and Russia War that fans are pretty angry and they realize that they will have to be fan friendly at the beginning.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 20, 2022 10:50:18 GMT -5
I agree, Reed. In fact, I stopped attending games back in the late 1990's. I'd rather watch on TV, listen to Kuip and Kruk, and watch the replays. As to the owners and players union...they don't care one inkling for the fans. Not one. Let me put it this way: Both sides think they are nouns, and everyone else is just an adjective. Nouns, as you know, exist just fine without adjectives. But this always brings me back to unions. Greed. It's never, EVER enough, and they hide behind the pretense that what they are doing is "for the workers benefits." No it's not. To paraphrase what Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men. "The law isn't about justice. It's about winning and losing." "Bargaining isn't about what's fair to both sides, it's about how much you can win from the other. Both sides disgust me. Okay, so they're going to do a 162 game schedule and three weeks of spring training. This season might be a grind because the first week will be made up with a series of doubleheaders and three days tacked on to the end. Here we go again with a third consecutive abbreviated spring training and another epidemic of muscle pulls and soft tissue injuries. I don't see what they have in that contract that could not have been there three weeks ago. Larry Baer was quoted that the team will be "pretty aggressive" in free agency. That kind of quote tends to bite people in the butt if they don't follow through so we shall see. The team was not at the forefront of negotiations (Detroit, Anaheim, and Cincinnati) but they realize that because of the pandemic and Russia War that fans are pretty angry and they realize that they will have to be fan friendly at the beginning. The makeup plan is to tack on a series with San Diego at the end of the season and makeup days with Milwaukee will be made up with doubleheaders or made up on scheduled days off when they are travelling back east.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 28, 2022 8:54:10 GMT -5
Okay, so they're going to do a 162 game schedule and three weeks of spring training. This season might be a grind because the first week will be made up with a series of doubleheaders and three days tacked on to the end. Here we go again with a third consecutive abbreviated spring training and another epidemic of muscle pulls and soft tissue injuries. I don't see what they have in that contract that could not have been there three weeks ago. Larry Baer was quoted that the team will be "pretty aggressive" in free agency. That kind of quote tends to bite people in the butt if they don't follow through so we shall see. The team was not at the forefront of negotiations (Detroit, Anaheim, and Cincinnati) but they realize that because of the pandemic and Russia War that fans are pretty angry and they realize that they will have to be fan friendly at the beginning. And sure enough, as if on cue, injuries are starting to pile up. Joc and Flores have already been hit by pitches and Rogers has been hit by a comebacker. Those could not be avoided. However, Belt's knee is acting up again and Longoria is having finger problem from after being hit last August. Kapler said they were working on these all winter and taking reps in the cages. So far, they project to be "ready" for the home opener. Belt's knee looks ominous because it was the same one he hurt last year. Second base is going to be thin with La Stella out and if Flores cannot go. To be honest, I have a hard time seeing La Stella, Belt, and Longoria hitting the ground running in eleven days. I would have been more comfortable if they were dealing with these injuries in late February but it is what it is.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 29, 2022 10:19:22 GMT -5
And sure enough, as if on cue, injuries are starting to pile up. Joc and Flores have already been hit by pitches and Rogers has been hit by a comebacker. Those could not be avoided. However, Belt's knee is acting up again and Longoria is having finger problem from after being hit last August. Kapler said they were working on these all winter and taking reps in the cages. So far, they project to be "ready" for the home opener. Belt's knee looks ominous because it was the same one he hurt last year. Second base is going to be thin with La Stella out and if Flores cannot go. To be honest, I have a hard time seeing La Stella, Belt, and Longoria hitting the ground running in eleven days. I would have been more comfortable if they were dealing with these injuries in late February but it is what it is. Now they have scheduled Longoria for finger surgery today which immediately rules him out for opening day. From what I've heard, it started becoming painful when he was trying to ramp back up. If not for the lockout, this might have been dealt with sooner. 2022 will have an injury epidemic like 2021 if not greater because of the shortened ST. I'm hearing Estrada or Flores would replace Longoria. Also, Wade Jr tweaked his knee running from third to home yesterday. Kapler said reports were encouraging and Duggar would start in his place if he is unable to go.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 29, 2022 10:23:53 GMT -5
Absolutely true! When you have nothing, come from nothing, and then all the sudden you're swimming and money, and likely don't have a ton of education, that's a prescription for trouble Good call! I didn't realize until today when Krukow mentioned it that Estrada was shot in a robbery attempt in Venezuela a few years ago. The bullet was lodged in his hip for six months before it was removed. He was quoted as saying that it made him think twice about going back again.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 29, 2022 15:15:30 GMT -5
Now they have scheduled Longoria for finger surgery today which immediately rules him out for opening day. From what I've heard, it started becoming painful when he was trying to ramp back up. If not for the lockout, this might have been dealt with sooner. 2022 will have an injury epidemic like 2021 if not greater because of the shortened ST. I'm hearing Estrada or Flores would replace Longoria. Also, Wade Jr tweaked his knee running from third to home yesterday. Kapler said reports were encouraging and Duggar would start in his place if he is unable to go. Wade's injury might be enough to put him on the IL. Might open up a space for Dubon or Williams.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 29, 2022 20:27:53 GMT -5
Wade's injury might be enough to put him on the IL. If so, that would open up a space for Dubon or Williams. Swell... season hasn't even started and this crap is happening.
I also heard that Belt's knee, the same one he hurt last year, is already acting up.
I expected down years following such good years from players like Crawford, belt, Wade and Ruff... but this is already putting us behind the proverbial 8 ball.
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Idiocracy
Mar 30, 2022 9:22:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Mar 30, 2022 9:22:32 GMT -5
The injury to Longoria is good, I don't really want to see much of him this season anyways. That opens it up for Flores to start and Vossler to make the team.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 30, 2022 10:02:40 GMT -5
The injury to Longoria is good, I don't really want to see much of him this season anyways. That opens it up for Flores to start and Vossler to make the team. The main loss is the right handed bat which the Giants were already thin. However, he probably would have performed like second half Longoria with the injury so probably not much of a loss overall. The timing of the injury shows me that he probably did not do much conditioning in the off season if he was ramping up his swing so late. If not for lack of off season work and the lockout, the finger might have been addressed earlier and he might have been ready for opening day. As it is, he probably set himself back until at least May. I agree with you in that it gives someone a chance to play their way onto the team.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 30, 2022 16:24:03 GMT -5
I have not heard one word of Vossler being in the equation. Anyone know why?
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Post by reedonly on Mar 31, 2022 8:42:31 GMT -5
NBC sports has mentioned Vosler but he's down on the pecking order for a number of reasons, many of which are due to the numbers game that Farhan plays. Vosler has options while Estrada and Dubon do not so those players with options are less likely to make the big club. Second, he's left handed meaning he's behind Luke Williams and Alex Blandino. Vosler probably does not need to prove anything at the AAA level and he probably did not get enough ABs last year at the Major League level to form enough of a sample size. Vosler having options means he probably goes back down otherwise they would lose Dubon.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 31, 2022 8:50:43 GMT -5
I have not heard one word of Vossler being in the equation. Anyone know why? I've also read some rumors about trading for Jose Ramirez. That probably is unreasonable because it would likely take Luciano and Matos to get it done and I'd rather they keep them.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 31, 2022 10:01:16 GMT -5
I saw Vosler mentioned for the first time today on the MyTeams app
Personally, I think the guy deserves a chance vs RHP.
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