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Post by klaiggeb on Feb 13, 2022 16:14:54 GMT -5
Saw where the idiots sat down over the weekend and tried to get things settled.
Heck, only 30 PLUS MILLION APART!
Greed vs Ego...probably make a better movie than the last Alien movie.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 14, 2022 11:34:22 GMT -5
They will probably hammer out a deal the way a college kid studies for finals. Cram at last minute. My fear is that they try to cut back on spring training instead of regular season. Remember, because of COVID the last two seasons, they cut back on spring training and there was an epidemic of soft tissue injuries all throughout baseball. To be safe, I think they will need six weeks to get ready at minimum. Unfortunately, this is not just baseball's problem because there was an uptick in these kinds of injuries in the NBA, as well.
I guess they are working on the arbitration clock and dis-incentives for tanking. Seems like the soft salary cap is being set somewhat high, in my opinion.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 15, 2022 11:25:46 GMT -5
There is a new rule they are considering in the new CBA which would limit the number of times a player could be optioned to the minor leagues at five per season. This impacts teams like the Giants and Dodgers who use their minor league system to stash players. As a reference point the 2021 option list went like this:
Thairo Estrada 7 Jason Vosler 7 Sammy Long 5 Chadwick Tromp 5 John Brebbia 4 Camilo Doval 4 Steven Duggar 4 Jay Jackson 4 Sam Selman 4
I would have thought Jay Jackson and Duggar were optioned more frequently than they have been but this clearly would have impacted the use of players like Estrada and Vosler.
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Post by klaiggeb on Feb 16, 2022 10:41:30 GMT -5
Reed, who is pushing for this rule; the players or the owners?
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Idiocracy
Feb 16, 2022 11:18:01 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Feb 16, 2022 11:18:01 GMT -5
I'd imagine the players are wanting that new rule, and I tend to agree with it.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 16, 2022 11:37:28 GMT -5
I think it is the players. I guess it will discourage them from using the minor leagues as a taxi squad. Supposedly the worst offenders are the Giants and Dodgers.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 16, 2022 15:31:49 GMT -5
They should not have had to shuttle Thairo Estrada back and forth to Sacramento so much. they should have DFA'd Dickerson instead. Maybe they need to include an exemption if they are replacing a player who has gone on bereavement.
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Post by klaiggeb on Feb 16, 2022 18:04:04 GMT -5
You know I agree, Reed. I'm guessing they still believe Dickerson could "turn things around."
And with the money invested in him, I can understand that.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 17, 2022 11:24:12 GMT -5
On KNBR this morning, they mentioned that Juan Soto was offered an extension by the Nationals of $350 million and he turned it down. Could we soon see a $500 million player? Soto will be age 26 when he becomes eligible for free agency.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 17, 2022 16:14:46 GMT -5
Saw where the idiots sat down over the weekend and tried to get things settled.
Heck, only 30 PLUS MILLION APART!
Greed vs Ego...probably make a better movie than the last Alien movie.
Krukow stated today on KNBR that if a deal is not finalized by this weekend, opening day is in jeopardy. They had two short meetings, a fifteen minute one to discuss starting arbitration in 2 to 3 years of service time and changing the pre-arbitration bonus pool from $100 million/30 players to $115 million/150 players and a 20 minute side meeting. Its pretty clear to me that they are not too serious about getting a deal done if they are just screwing around for 35 minutes
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Post by reedonly on Feb 18, 2022 9:20:20 GMT -5
Now MLB is saying that Feb 28 is the cutoff day for the season to begin on time. Swell. that means 4 weeks of spring training maximum. Prepare for yet another season full of unnecessary injuries, maybe even worse if you add in the lingering effects of the past two seasons. Last season, the guys that kept getting hurt were Belt, LaStella, Longoria, and Yaz. I get that it affects everyone less economically if they cut ST instead of regular season but its not wise. Also, this will impact the development of prospects if they have to spend more time getting the vets ready.
Both sides are shafting the fans and its times like these which make me think twice about all the time and support I give these guys. Of course we will all be back when the season gets rolling but its getting to be a struggle. A few years ago, I've started not attending live games, even before COVID. Its too much for a sixty something like me to deal with all those crowds and drunk fans at the park and I have turned down offers of free tickets several times. I would have to bring my wife to these games if we go and she's not all that interested in it. Tickets, food, and parking can run about $300. Maybe we can go to weekday day games after I retire but at this stage and with COVID still hovering around, Oracle is not my safe spot (they are not screening vaccination cards or negative COVID tests or requiring masks).
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Post by klaiggeb on Feb 18, 2022 11:07:23 GMT -5
I agree, Reed. In fact, I stopped attending games back in the late 1990's.
I'd rather watch on TV, listen to Kuip and Kruk, and watch the replays.
As to the owners and players union...they don't care one inkling for the fans. Not one.
Let me put it this way: Both sides think they are nouns, and everyone else is just an adjective.
Nouns, as you know, exist just fine without adjectives.
But this always brings me back to unions. Greed. It's never, EVER enough, and they hide behind the pretense that what they are doing is "for the workers benefits."
No it's not. To paraphrase what Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men. "The law isn't about justice. It's about winning and losing."
"Bargaining isn't about what's fair to both sides, it's about how much you can win from the other.
Both sides disgust me.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 18, 2022 11:24:06 GMT -5
I agree, Reed. In fact, I stopped attending games back in the late 1990's. I'd rather watch on TV, listen to Kuip and Kruk, and watch the replays. As to the owners and players union...they don't care one inkling for the fans. Not one. Let me put it this way: Both sides think they are nouns, and everyone else is just an adjective. Nouns, as you know, exist just fine without adjectives. But this always brings me back to unions. Greed. It's never, EVER enough, and they hide behind the pretense that what they are doing is "for the workers benefits." No it's not. To paraphrase what Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men. "The law isn't about justice. It's about winning and losing." "Bargaining isn't about what's fair to both sides, it's about how much you can win from the other. Both sides disgust me. Yes, its no longer about the negotiations, its winning or losing. The thing about going to live games nowadays that bothers me most is the drunk fans, or more precisely, people who cannot hold their liquor. Going to the game itself is fun but waiting in line with all of those guys for food or trying get around or leave the ballpark is the real torture. It was not like that until after 2010 or so. Even when you get to your car, its not safe because people would wander into traffic. Last time we went there, it took an hour and a half to get home and we live in the city. since they are not checking for COVID or vaccination status, the danger is magnified.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 18, 2022 11:28:07 GMT -5
On KNBR this morning, they mentioned that Juan Soto was offered an extension by the Nationals of $350 million and he turned it down. Could we soon see a $500 million player? Soto will be age 26 when he becomes eligible for free agency. Also, news has leaked that Walker Buehler has also turned down an extension. From the timing of these news leaks, its probably from the owners. Even so, there was one poster who thought it would be a good idea to extend them when they are young and cheap like they did with Wander Franco but maybe this route is no longer feasible.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 24, 2022 11:41:05 GMT -5
Saw where the idiots sat down over the weekend and tried to get things settled.
Heck, only 30 PLUS MILLION APART!
Greed vs Ego...probably make a better movie than the last Alien movie.
Both sides have been pretty bad. They could have at least started the ball rolling before the holidays and that would have meant lesser chance of losing games. Not even any sort of presentation before Christmas! With both sides screwing around even up to last week with those stupid 15 minute meetings, its hard to root for players or owners and it certainly screwing around the fans who had made vacation plans for spring training. I've mentioned this a number of times and it bears repeating: if they shorten spring training too much, we will see another epidemic of soft tissue injuries that we saw in 2020 and 2021, which also had shortened spring trainings because of COVID.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 28, 2022 9:46:29 GMT -5
From what I'm hearing now, the owners are willing to sacrifice up to a month or so of games in the beginning of the season and tack on expanded playoffs. The feeling is that the money generated by the expanded playoffs will make up for the first month of the season. If games are canceled, the games will not be made up nor will the players be paid for canceled games. I would think that canceled games is a money saver for the owners.
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Idiocracy
Feb 28, 2022 11:13:21 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Feb 28, 2022 11:13:21 GMT -5
For the teams that make the playoffs, which usually don't have money issues. The other teams will lose a month of revenue.
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Post by reedonly on Feb 28, 2022 16:08:39 GMT -5
They are probably going to expand the playoff pool. Also, for those teams that don't contend for the playoffs, its more of a push because they don't have to pay salaries.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 1, 2022 11:09:15 GMT -5
I heard the Krukow show this morning and from the way they were talking, they think that there will be a deal done in the next couple of days. The new item on the table is possible expansion of playoffs to include 12 to 14 teams. Players don't want 14 because they feel it would take away owners' incentive to spend if they can get into the playoffs with an 82 win team. So, if we take last years' standings, that would mean Toronto and Cincinnati would have made the playoffs and about half a dozen more teams would have been fighting for the last spots. For me, this is a minor issue and I suspect most fans wouldn't care either way. If I were in the fanbase of one of those borderline teams, it would not excite me because even if they win the play-ins, they would go up against the team with the best record and its more than likely to be one-and-done.
One item that they are considering that I do not agree with is the concept of a "ghost win" which gives a division winner a 1-0 advantage in a series.
Once the agreement is signed, there's going to be a lot of movement in the free agent market, rule V, and so forth.
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Idiocracy
Mar 1, 2022 15:24:15 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 1, 2022 15:24:15 GMT -5
Actual movement in the talks! Who would have thunk it
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Post by reedonly on Mar 1, 2022 16:14:49 GMT -5
Actual movement in the talks! Who would have thunk it ESPN would pony up an extra $85 million if playoffs expand to 12 teams., $105 million if it goes to 14 teams.
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Idiocracy
Mar 2, 2022 9:38:33 GMT -5
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 2, 2022 9:38:33 GMT -5
I have no doubt that Austin Slater is correct; that the owners planned for this moment in time to make it look like the players were holding up negotiations, and thus the but the start of the season in jeopardy.
But Austin Slater's statement that the players won't take a subpar deal implies that these people are working for turnips, potatoes, and corn flakes.
I was in the teachers union for over 27 years, and what I learned, and what I have always said, coincide. It's never enough for the union. Never.
I am not absolving the owners. They are just as much to blame as the players. But for the players to come out and tell the fans that they won't take a subpar deal is rhetoric I would expect from a freaking politician!
Tens of thousands of players, who, like me, once dreamed of being in the show here a statement like that didn't see the foolishness, and the absurdity in it.
I don't have the exact numbers, but I believe the minimum salary for a major league baseball player is in the mid six-figure range.
Now compare that to the average salary for most americans, and they are not even close!
To sit there and claim they're getting a subpar deal is ridiculous!
I see greed and ego all over this.
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Idiocracy
Mar 2, 2022 19:50:26 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 2, 2022 19:50:26 GMT -5
What amazes me is when these teams win a Division, a League or a World Championship they say they it's all for the fans...yet the fans aren't represented at these talks anymore. Major League Baseball used to represent the fans but Manfred is all about money, not protecting the game.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 3, 2022 11:20:07 GMT -5
What amazes me is when these teams win a Division, a League or a World Championship they say they it's all for the fans...yet the fans aren't represented at these talks anymore. Major League Baseball used to represent the fans but Manfred is all about money, not protecting the game. Manfred was selected by the owners and is currently still receiving his paychecks. I'm hearing that the negotiations actually move along until they are almost done and then Manfred adds something that throws in a curveball at the last minute and brings negotiations to a halt because it require the players to discuss. They had a couple weeks before the holidays to bring up this stuff and they didn't. My feeling is that the owners are trying to save money by extending the lockout about a month - after opening day, its usually colder and bad attendance anyway. I'm not a fan of Manfred and its pretty clear he's not a fan of the game or a fan of the fans.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 3, 2022 11:31:18 GMT -5
Actual movement in the talks! Who would have thunk it ESPN would pony up an extra $85 million if playoffs expand to 12 teams., $105 million if it goes to 14 teams. As far as the Giants go, ownership has noticed that payroll has decreased under Zaidi and that the team has been successful under Zaidi. As such, local sportswriters feel that ownership might spend enough for an 85 win team instead of spending closer to the CBT. The team is staying quiet about the whole lockout situation but this might affect how the team spends money, especially if as much as $70 million per year is at stake. Giants ownership has a lot more going on than just baseball operations and stadium. They are involved in the Mission Rock Project on the site of the parking lot which is supposed to end up being a mixed use facility. Pandemic delayed that a bit and it is estimated to be over a $2 billion project. Initially, this was pitched as a secondary income source for the Giants but things can go the other way fast. I mentioned before that the Giants lost a lot of money in 2020 and 2021 so don't assume savings from Posey's and Cueto's contracts to go back into payroll.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 4, 2022 11:17:33 GMT -5
I have no doubt that Austin Slater is correct; that the owners planned for this moment in time to make it look like the players were holding up negotiations, and thus the but the start of the season in jeopardy. But Austin Slater's statement that the players won't take a subpar deal implies that these people are working for turnips, potatoes, and corn flakes. I was in the teachers union for over 27 years, and what I learned, and what I have always said, coincide. It's never enough for the union. Never. I am not absolving the owners. They are just as much to blame as the players. But for the players to come out and tell the fans that they won't take a subpar deal is rhetoric I would expect from a freaking politician! Tens of thousands of players, who, like me, once dreamed of being in the show here a statement like that didn't see the foolishness, and the absurdity in it. I don't have the exact numbers, but I believe the minimum salary for a major league baseball player is in the mid six-figure range. Now compare that to the average salary for most americans, and they are not even close! To sit there and claim they're getting a subpar deal is ridiculous! I see greed and ego all over this. I know its hard to sympathize with guys who make more than we do for playing sport. I think the players are of the mindset of trying to maximize what they can as payoff for living on poverty wages while they are in the minors and for short playing careers (the average is now 2.7 years). I do understand that Major Leaguers represent about 700 guys and most of those in the minors don't make it so its the uppermost of the toppermost. Also, unless they've hit it big in free agency, most of these guys will have to learn another job after they leave baseball. The bigger names on the team who have had big contracts (Crawford, Belt, Longoria, etc) do not have to worry but I would think Yastrzemski and Wade would likely need to transition into another profession. You can begin to see why Slater is the player rep because he probably will not land a big contract and about a year or two, he'll probably be done.
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Idiocracy
Mar 4, 2022 11:37:15 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 4, 2022 11:37:15 GMT -5
More and more young prospects receive signing bonuses and they don't even need to be top prospects. The mid level guys and the 16-17 year old international prospects who've proven very little other than athletic ability, also get significant signing bonuses so I don't have a lot of sympathy for them making peanuts in the minors. Afterall, the minor league teams don't make a lot of money.
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Post by reedonly on Mar 4, 2022 16:50:44 GMT -5
Most minor leaguers are paid from April to October and I've read were the salary range is $8000 to $14000. Most players don't get the larger signing bonuses. 60% get $100000 or less, 40% get $10000 or less. After agent fees and taxes, the takeaway is about half of the bonus. The Giants are one of the few teams that gives minor league players a housing stipend. I guess the ownership can justify it because they are providing a sort of apprenticeship program. 80% of those players drafted do not make the majors. Surprisingly, the one guy on the supreme court who is questioning baseball's antitrust exemption is Justice Kavanaugh.
To be clear, I don't have any sympathy for those top dollar free agents but the guys like Slater, Yastrzemski, and Wade have to wait years for arbitration and I think I posted that Mike Yastrzemski is going to be arbitration eligible for the first time next year at the age of 32 and cannot be an unrestricted FA until age 35. Wade is in similar boat but he started his arbitration clock three years earlier so arb eligible next year at age 29 and hits unrestricted free agency at age 32. Those two players will probably not benefit that much from free agency and I would be surprised if either would be playing three years from now.
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Idiocracy
Mar 5, 2022 10:36:19 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Mar 5, 2022 10:36:19 GMT -5
Here are the prospects who have agreed to deals with the Giants in the 2022 international signing period:
Ryan Reckley, SS, Bahamas -- $2,200,000 Juan Perez, C, Venezuela -- $1,100,000 Dennys Riera, SS, Venezuela -- $700,000 Alessandro Duran, C, Venezuela -- $397,500 Erick Arosemena, CF, Panama -- $369,700 Moises De La Rosa, OF, Dominican Republic -- $272,500 Alfonso Perez, RHS, Dominican Republic -- $97,500 Mauricio Estrella, RHS, Dominican Republic -- $10,000 Carlos Gomez, RHS, Colombia -- $10,000 Audie Jimenez, SS, Venezuela -- $10,000 Deifran Yriarte, RHS, Venezuela -- $10,000
This is just the international players, 7 of 11 signed got a bonus of $97.5k or more. 6 got $272.5k or more. That's a lot of money for a kid.
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Post by klaiggeb on Mar 5, 2022 10:45:32 GMT -5
Reed, my wife worked in the corporate world as President of a subsidiary of a large Health organization.
She and I disagree about this all the time.
Her point is that I can't compare salaries of other places to those of MLB. Apples and Oranges she says.
I couldn't disagree more.
We all live in the same world, same market place, buy the same goods, and thus it's not apples to oranges.
MLB minimum salary is $570,500.
MINIMUM!
Across the USA, the AVERAGE salary is $51,480.
Do the math; that means the AVERAGE American has to work 10 years to make the minimum of what a MLB player earns.
10 freaking years!
I don't disagree that a MLB career tends to be a short one.
Then again, at the MINIMUM, playing just 2 years nets you $115 MILLION!
That's over 20 years wages for the average american.
Choosing to play, or attempt to play in pro sports is a choice.
I CHOOSE to be a teacher who, most people feel are under paid. (For the record, I disagree with that statement)
MY choice.
If I choose to manage a Subway, MY choice.
In neither job will I ever make close to the minimum ML salary.
But it was MY choice to do so, and I knew that salary fact going in.
And Slater and the rest keep talking about a fair deal?
Grow up, Austin and the rest of the players, take off those glasses tinted by meal money and all the other benefits and look at the rest of our country.
Your reality and the reality of what the rest of America has to deal with aren't even close.
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