From the Giants' team psychologist

[sharksrog]

We've discussed the unfortunate playoff incident when Shawn Estes slid into second base, severely twisted or broke his ankle, came off the base, and was tagged out. It's one of our least favorite moments, since all of us would have done everything in our power to hold or reach back to the base. Boly told us about the time he literally tore his hamstring between first and second bases, yet virtually crawled the rest of the way to the base.

As much as we all hated the play, I mentioned that I believed it was possible that Shawn more or less blacked out temporarily from the pain. First of all, I know we each experience pain differently. I'm lucky enough to have a high pain threshold, but everyone's threshold is different. I know that regardless of pain threshold, we all would do our very best to get to and hold that base. But what if we essentially blacked out from the pain? Then we would have no control over our actions.

Legend has it that Willie Mays was knocked out when he made a diving catch into the wall to end a game against the Dodgers. When he came to, there were two people surrounding him on the ground. One was Giants manager Leo Durocher. The other was Jackie Robinson. "What are you doing here, Jackie?" Willie asked. "Making sure you held onto the ball," Jackie replied. By rule, the ball had to be voluntarily removed from Willie's glove in order for the out to become official. Unconscious players have dropped balls before. Depends on how the ball is lodged in the glove and the angle of the glove. The player no longer has control.

I myself dislocated my knee swinging at a pitch. I crumpled to the ground and had to be removed from the game. What I didn't realize until I talked to my friend after the game was that I screamed out in pain when it happened. I "blacked out" to the point where I couldn't even hear myself scream. Is it possible that Shawn Estes "blacked out" and thus could enact the instinct each of us has to get to and hold the base? I posted here that I suspected that was the case, that judging him without personally experiencing his pain was wrong.

The Giants' psychologist, Shana Alexander, lives right across the street from me. She spends a lot of time in San Francisco and when she's home, with her seven-year-old son. But I resolved that the next time I was going to my car at the same time she was going to hers, I would ask her. If we want the answer to a psychological question, ask a psychologist, right? And whom better to ask than the Giants' own team psychologist.

Well, today was the day we went outside to our cars at the same time. So I asked Shana. And she verified that, yes, it was possible the player (I didn't tell her who it was, since she likely knows Shawn and I didn't want to influence her answer) "blacked out" from the pain and was unable to react as he normally would. She didn't say that is what happened. There likely is no way to know without talking to Shawn himself. Even he might be unclear about exactly what happened.

I hope someone will copy this so that Boly sees it. He thought my idea was crazy, but I realized I'm more open to a variety of ideas than he is and suspected I was right. I was in the fortunate position that if I waited long enough -- I didn't want to go to Shana's door and bother her, even though she almost certainly wouldn't mind -- I could get the answer from the person who is probably about as qualified as anyone to give the answer. (Shana is the person who has worked with Drew Robinson and his family, and she said this morning that Drew is "great.")

I wasn't surprised when she gave the answer she did. We're not psychologists, but common sense says that people experience things differently. I'll bet if we asked Shawn, he would tell us that was the most embarrassing moment of his career. But when a person "blacks out," he loses control of his actions.

Can't say for sure that's what happened to Shawn, but again common sense says it's likely. Common sense also tells us it's a good idea to keep our minds open to any reasonable possibility.

Some might even say it's a good idea to examine what a person says when he's a known liar. Even when a person normally tells the truth, it's a good idea to examine what he says. We can all make mistakes. But when a known liar speaks, it can be dangerous to an entire country.

[Islandboagie]

You don't "black out" because of pain, unless of course the pain is something hitting your head and you really black out. When you experience extreme pain it normally makes you focus on that pain, so the rest of your senses are fuzzy.

For example you might be in a car accident and you cut your head open, you might not smell gasoline because you are in survival mode. While others who responded to the car accident smell the gas very clearly, you are focused on checking yourself, making sure you are in one piece.

That doesn't mean your body can't function, it means you've prioritized what you deem important. If your competing in a sport and you hurt yourself, focusing on what's happening in the game might be a priority, while others might focus on their own well being. In Estes' case, he focused on his own well being rather than the game.

Then of course there are injuries when the person is simply incapable physically to continue the play. I don't think this applies to Estes, because he still had limbs that worked, and he was close enough to the base that if that was his priority he could have crawled his way back to the bag. But that's why Shawn Estes is sitting at a desk now talking about other guys winning Championships without a ring himself. He is a loser and was always a loser.

[sharksrog]

Why would I think the Giants' team psychologist would know more about this subject than you, Matt? Shame on me for even considering it.

And shame on me for even considering it when I myself "blacked out" to the point where I was shocked to find I had screamed. I would have bet money that I didn't. I thought I was completely conscious of everything that was happening. But I guess that can all be explained by saying my ears simply didn't work for a little while. Temporary deafness. Must have been a quick but temporary inner ear infection.

Next time I need some psychological advice, I won't check with Shana. I won't talk to my cousin's wife. I'll simply slip you an email. I appreciate the help. I'm curious though. Where did you receive your doctorate? Was there a lot of study and research involved? I guess you didn't apply for the Giants job because you live in the Seattle area. The Giants told Shana she would need to move to the Bay Area, and we were disappointed to be losing good neighbors, but COVID threw things off, and she, Blake and Cash haven't moved yet. Which is good. They're all nice people, and I enjoy occasionally pitching batting practice to 7-year-old Cash.

When I learned from Blake that Shana had gone to work for the Giants, I looked online at reviews of her private practice. They were stunningly good. I'm not surprised the Giants hired her. Apparently some of her private clients had been with the River Cats. Since baseball is a self-defined "game of failure," its players likely can benefit from psychological assistance. I haven't asked her about her work, but she has told me she works with players in the minors as well as the majors. Because she lives near Sacramento, I believe she works a fair amount with the River Cats.

And now Drew Robinson apparently works with her. His is an amazing story. He did manage to hit one homer with the River Cats last summer before the Giants transferred him into their player relations department, but how do you hit high 90's pitching with only one eye? Not many can do so with two really good ones. I would think breaking balls would be even tougher.

By the way, you may have explained the phenomenon when you said the rest of your senses become fuzzy. That quite possibly could apply to your thought process as well. If my own pain kept me from hearing my own screaming, it would seem possible that Shawn's pain could have overridden his instincts. The Giants' psychologist seemed to think so.

They say to walk a mile in someone's shoes before we judge them, and I don't think any of us is capable of waking that mile in Shawn's shoes. I'm not saying you and Boly are wrong about what happened to Shawn. I'm not sure even Shawn would know for sure. What I am saying is that you're wrong for JUDGING him without knowing.

It's kind of like Javier Baez's bunt. You guys said the bunt was wrong because he had two strikes, ignoring that Roger Craig and Don Zimmer, among others, occasionally had their non-pitchers bunt with two strikes. Boly says he believes Craig has been the Giants' best manager. I didn't say the bunt was right or that it was wrong. What I said was that it MIGHT not have been wrong. And I gave a lot of reasons why it might not have been -- primarily that Javier was in a huge strikeout slump in which he was striking out almost every time he got two strikes on him. Google picked it up, the only time I know of where one of our posts got that treatment. SOMEBODY thought it was an interesting post.

It may indeed have been wrong for Baez to bunt with two strikes -- but not solely because nobody bunts with two strikes. Roger Craig and Don Zimmer do, and they know/knew more about baseball than all of us here put together.

And it wasn't wrong for another reason one poster cited -- that he should have bunted BEFORE he got to two strikes. The runner wasn't on third until he had two strikes on him, so the opportunity hadn't presented itself.

Far too often here people think they've made decisive arguments when those arguments lacks facts and/or logic. No one here proved with facts and logic that Baez's bunt was wrong. No one proved it was RIGHT, either, but then no one ever said it was the right thing to do. Only that it might not have been the wrong thing.

The slump Baez was in indicated that had he swung, he quite possibly would have struck out on the pitch. It was perhaps the most likely result. But it wasn't a certainty, and we'll never know. No one can say with certainty that bunting was the wrong move, just as they can't say it was the right one. We CAN say it didn't work out, but in with hitters in baseball, the right move usually DOESN'T work out.

Did I mention that baseball is a game of failure? Have I ever mentioned that while baseball itself is mostly a game of black and white -- ball or strike, safe or out, catch or no-catch -- the strategy in the game isn't nearly so black and white, since even the best strategy doesn't work 100% of the time?

Stop and think how Farhan has been so successful to date (and likely won't be viewed so successfully a year from now). Not every move he's made has worked out. Many haven't. But he is unafraid to try moves, no matter how small, and he has been good at avoiding taking heavy risks. he has done an excellent job of assessing risk/reward ratios, and as a result, he's been nicely rewarded at times but not heavily penalized when his moves haven't worked out.

It strongly appears he has stuck with that basic strategy this winter. We'll see how it works out. The one thing we can be pretty sure of is that he's not done yet. Have we EVER known him to be done? Even with the MLB lockout one, he's still making minor league moves. No move seems to be too minor for him if it has a reasonable chance of improving the team now or at some time in the future.

Farhan has a couple of things going for him. First, he's a brilliant man. Second, he keeps an open mind. We can't all be as brilliant as he (I'm not sure I personally know ANYONE who is bright as Farhan), but we can all keep our minds open. And like Farhan, search hard and logically for the truth.

For those who seek the truth, it can often set them free. For those who avoid it, the truth can often be incriminating.

[reedonly]

Dec 20, 2021 11:23:58 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

You don't "black out" because of pain, unless of course the pain is something hitting your head and you really black out. When you experience extreme pain it normally makes you focus on that pain, so the rest of your senses are fuzzy.

For example you might be in a car accident and you cut your head open, you might not smell gasoline because you are in survival mode. While others who responded to the car accident smell the gas very clearly, you are focused on checking yourself, making sure you are in one piece.

That doesn't mean your body can't function, it means you've prioritized what you deem important. If your competing in a sport and you hurt yourself, focusing on what's happening in the game might be a priority, while others might focus on their own well being. In Estes' case, he focused on his own well being rather than the game.

Then of course there are injuries when the person is simply incapable physically to continue the play. I don't think this applies to Estes, because he still had limbs that worked, and he was close enough to the base that if that was his priority he could have crawled his way back to the bag. But that's why Shawn Estes is sitting at a desk now talking about other guys winning Championships without a ring himself. He is a loser and was always a loser.

The Giants may have given him a ring for working the Giants pre and post game for CSN Bay Area.  They've given rings to a lot of non players such as Krukow, Kuiper, Renel, and all the Hall Of Famers.  I would not be surprised if he received one.  I mean, even Dan Uggla got one for going 0 for 11 and committing 2 errors for the 2014 team.  

Estes did make a comment in passing that I think he did not intend to make.  He was talking about Logan Webb on KNBR and said Webb was a guy who wanted the ball in the biggest situations and then he said "I wasn't one of those guys".   

[sharksrog]

I remember your mentioning that comment, Reeder. If Shawn hadn't intended to make the statement though, I doubt he would have. Maybe he wishes he hadn't, or maybe he's just an honest guy. Or perhaps both.

Shawn was pretty good in 1996 and 1997, but aside from those two seasons, his ERA over his remaining 1400 innings was just a tick under five. Shawn was basically a #4 or #5 starter over his career.

For Matt to call Shawn a loser, when Shawn seems to be a decent guy who has been far more successful than Matt, seems wrong.

I wonder if the Giants win it all if Shana will get a ring. Probably not, but if she does, maybe I'll get to see one some day.

[Islandboagie]

That could be true Reed, they could given him a participation ring. Don't get me started on that...

[sharksrog]

I got a participation ring, and I've been married ever since.

And participating.

[reedonly]

Dec 20, 2021 19:00:57 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

That could be true Reed, they could given him a participation ring. Don't get me started on that...

The team was generous in getting rings to all the personnel. Uggla got one for exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide at the right time and lesser personnel got smaller ones. I would think Estes got one, participatory or no.

[sharksrog]

Dan Uggla. One of the best Rule 5 picks of all time, behind Roberto Clemente and Johann Santana, among others. The Giants haven't had great luck with their Rule 5 picks, but they keep trying.

This month they drafted Michael Gigliotti and traded for Tanner Andrews, who had been drafted by the Braves. They lost six players in the draft themselves. Not that it's great to lose six players, but it's a good sign when teams WANT your players enough to draft them. I can't remember the Giants' losing anywhere close to this many players before in the draft.

[reedonly]

Dec 20, 2021 19:47:20 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Dec 20, 2021 19:00:57 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

That could be true Reed, they could given him a participation ring. Don't get me started on that...

The team was generous in getting rings to all the personnel. Uggla got one for exchanging oxygen and carbon dioxide at the right time and lesser personnel got smaller ones. I would think Estes got one, participatory or no.

Also, in 2011, when the first rings came out, Kruk and Kuip were actually surprised to receive a full sized ring. I guess the team wanted everyone to share in the celebration.  I have no problem if Estes or any ex-Giants working directly or indirectly got one.   We can probably assume that Will Clark, Jeffrey Leonard, Dave Dravecky, and all the HOF in attendence received one.  Even if its like a participation trophy, I think the alumni that stayed with the Giants probably deserve recognition more so than a guy passing through like Uggla. 

[Islandboagie]

I believe you should have to earn the ring to receive one. Uggla was on the team for a short period, so he should get one. Will Clark was employed by the organization, he should get one. But handing them out to Mays and Leonard and others not associated with the organization shouldn't...I've been a loyal fan for a long time, if they get one I should too.

[reedonly]

Actually, Leonard and Dravecky are community reps so they are on payroll. Basically, it’s up to the front office and they’ve been fairly generous. I have issue with Gaylord’s statue because he’s in the hall for what he did after being traded.

[sharksrog]

I'm perfectly fine with whomever they wish to give a ring to. It's their decision, not mine. Naturally if Matt or I got one, I would be delighted. But I certainly wouldn't feel either one of us was deserving. Anyone who actually played on the team almost always gets one. Heck, while I'll bet it was very small, Uggla likely got a small World Series check as well. And that seems fine (as long as it wasn't OVERLY generous to the exclusion of someone else).

Perry wouldn't have been my choice for a statue either, but he did fare quite well as a Giant, posting a 2.96 ERA in nearly 2300 innings. It wasn't his fault he was traded. Putting this in perspective, while Gaylord wouldn't have made the Hall if he had retired upon leaving the Giants, his career ERA with the Giants was only 0.20 higher than Sandy Koufax's career ERA and it came in MORE innings than Sandy pitched. I had forgotten how good Gaylord truly was with the Giants and over how many innings.

I certainly can't argue his career with the Giants was as good as Sandy's with the Dodgers, but it wasn't as far off as I would have guessed. One thing about Gaylord is that he was a workhorse. He exceeded 320 innings twice and 280 innings in five of his 10 seasons with the Giants, only eight of which were full seasons.

Ignoring the postseason, there is more of a difference between Clayton Kershaw and Sandy in the regular season than between Sandy and Gaylord. Clayton too has now exceeded Sandy's innings, and he has won 20 more contests while losing three fewer and posting an ERA nearly 10% lower than Sandy's.

[Islandboagie]

I didn't know Leonard was a community rep..that might be pushing it as far as getting a ring. They aren't giving rings to ushers and they have as much to do with the Giants winning a World Series as a community rep does.

[sharksrog]

Why the sour grapes?

[reedonly]

I heard that the Giants gave out two versions of the ring. Version A is the one that the the players and presumably the more prominent members of the organization got and those run about $70,000 each. Version B is a similar but much less valuable piece. If you're worried about what Leonard, Estes, or Dravecky got, they probably got a version B. Players, hall of famers, main announcers, etc got version A.   For the fans, knockoff replicas can be had for as little as $12.95 on ebay and they'll even size it up for you.  

The players actually had a meeting about Uggla whether or not to award him the ring and bonuses and it was the players who wanted him to get the ring. After receiving the ring, he knew he didn't do anything to deserve it and was in the right plae at the right time but its something he can show off to his grandkids someday. Uggla did play a small role that year. Had he succeeded he would have continued to start but since he played miserably, the Giants turned to Joe Panik and the rest is history.  

Benjie Molina was in a weird spot in 2010. He wanted to go run out on the field with the Giants but knew he couldn't. He was happy to get his ring and the AL Champ ring.

Sometimes these things end up on ebay. One year, I saw Ernie Camacho's 1989 NL Champ ring for sale. Sad.

[reedonly]

Dec 22, 2021 9:59:58 GMT -5 reedonly said:

I heard that the Giants gave out two versions of the ring. Version A is the one that the the players and presumably the more prominent members of the organization got and those run about $70,000 each. Version B is a similar but much less valuable piece. If you're worried about what Leonard, Estes, or Dravecky got, they probably got a version B. Players, hall of famers, main announcers, etc got version A.   For the fans, knockoff replicas can be had for as little as $12.95 on ebay and they'll even size it up for you.  

The players actually had a meeting about Uggla whether or not to award him the ring and bonuses and it was the players who wanted him to get the ring. After receiving the ring, he knew he didn't do anything to deserve it and was in the right place at the right time but its something he can show off to his grandkids someday. Uggla did play a small role that year. Had he succeeded he would have continued to start but since he played miserably, the Giants turned to Joe Panik and the rest is history.  

Benjie Molina was in a weird spot in 2010. He wanted to go run out on the field with the Giants but knew he couldn't. He was happy to get his ring and the AL Champ ring.

Sometimes these things end up on ebay. One year, I saw Ernie Camacho's 1989 NL Champ ring for sale. Sad.

[reedonly]

This year, while with the Braves, Smith, Duval, Adrianza, Vogt, Sandoval, and Smyly got it. Its like getting an A on a group project. Three of them did the work and three of them didn't.

[reedonly]

Dec 21, 2021 18:45:47 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I believe you should have to earn the ring to receive one. Uggla was on the team for a short period, so he should get one. Will Clark was employed by the organization, he should get one. But handing them out to Mays and Leonard and others not associated with the organization shouldn't...I've been a loyal fan for a long time, if they get one I should too.

Mays is special assistant to Baer and makes spring training appearances.   even if he were not, they should try to record every story he has to tell or honor him as much as possible while he is still with us.  He is one of the last links to the 40s, Negro Leagues, and New York baseball Giants.  There are only about ten players alive in each of the mentioned catagories.  

[Islandboagie]

Yeah but let's face it, Mays doesn't do anything to help the team now, he just wears the hat and tells stories to the players during spring training. He's only special assistant because he's Willie Mays, not because of any work he does for the team.

[sharksrog]

The next time I see Shana I'll try to find out exactly how Willie interacts with the young guys in Spring Training these days. I know that until recently he worked with them on the field, but that may have ended, possibly even a few years back. Willie doesn't hear or see well these days, but he may still impart some instruction to the young guys, even if it's not on the field.

Two springs ago when Shana had just joined the team, she and her husband took their son to Spring Training, and the son got to meet Willie. Because he no longer sees well, Willie took Cash's hand, and Shana said Willie's face just lit up. Nearly three decades ago my dad told my mom she couldn't get Willie's autograph during a Spring Training game, but she got two of them -- one for each of my kids. In fact, thinking back, she probably got four of them -- one for each of my sister's kids too.

Remember that back in Willie's day, players didn't make anything like the money they make today. Players are making upwards of $40 million a season now. According to Baseball-Reference, Willie didn't make $2 million for his whole CAREER. If Willie were playing today, he would be worth well over a billion for his career. Willie would be worth well over 500 times what he was actually paid.

It's kind of like when Chris Speier was a much better player than his son Justin. Yet because Chris played a generation ahead of his first son, Justin made about four times as much in one three-year contract as Chris made in his entire 19-year career. Chris was one of the few players over the past 50 seasons who served as his own agent (although my dad once talked to Horace Stoneham on Chris' behalf). Justin had had dad's former teammate, Chris Arnold, as his agent.

Former Giant Manny Trillo's wife was an attorney who served as Manny's agent. Smart move on Manny's part! I hadn't noticed it previously, but Chris and Manny sort of switched places. Manny played for the Giants in 1984 and 1985 before signing as a free agent with the Cubs from 1986 through 1988. Chris had joined the Cubs in 1985, and he and Manny were teammates there in 1986. Then when the Cubs -- like all other teams in the collusion year of 1986 -- refused to offer Chris or any other free agent a raise in 1987, Chris joined the Giants for the final three seasons of his career.

I have mentioned here that I might have played the teeniest, tiniest part Chris' return to the Giants. After the 1986 season my dad and I agreed that perhaps the Giants' biggest need for a strong 1987 season was a utility infielder. When my dad was called around Thanksgiving, 1986 to give the eulogy at a former employee's funeral in the Scottsdale area, my mom and dad stayed with Chris and Aleta, and when my dad found out from Chris that GM Dallas Green wouldn't offer him even a $1 raise to return to the Cubs, he suggested to Chris that he call Don Zimmer, who had just moved from coach of the Cubs to coach of the Giants, and tell Don he'd like to play for the Giants. On my mom's 64th birthday that year, Chris signed again with the Giants.

For the same exact amount the Cubs had offered him.