The most underappreciated Giant

[sharksrog]

My nominee for the most underappreciated Giant is Curt Casali. It's true that Curt couldn't hit his way out of the proverbial paper bag, but guess what? As a catcher handling the staff last year as Buster Posey backup, he was phenomenal.

Over the years, Giants pitchers have RAVED about how much they liked pitching to Buster. Part of the reason Buster will get into the Hall of Fame is his handling of pitchers. Yet last season Curt caught close to 60% as many innings as Buster did, and when pitching to Curt, the Giants' pitchers were even better than when they pitched to Buster. And not just by a little bit. By 5/6ths of a run per innings. One could make an argument that the Giants were an even better team with Curt behind the plate than they were with Buster.

When one can even make that argument compared to a Hall of Fame catcher, I'd say we're talking most underappreciated territory.

I'm thinking about the players the Giants can improve on, and the weak-hitting Casali comes immediately to mind. Then I look a little closer, and I realize I may be barking up the wrong tree.

Man, I do wish they were stronger in center field though. Steven Duggar still doesn't seem likely to hit, and can La Monte Wade, Jr. play a good enough center field to platoon with Austin Slater? Could the Giants use Mike Yastrzemski there? Is Heliot Ramos a good enough center fielder to play there, and can he hit right-handers well enough to avoid being a platoon player? (Heliot batted only .224 against righties last season while he was playing in AA.)

[sharksrog]

Saw another compliment to Casali in that he is looked at as a good mentor for Joey Bart.

[Islandboagie]

Casali seems like a good teammate and clubhouse guy, I just worry about the lack of production offensively.

I believe we took a hit losing Gausman and settling with Webb and a handful of #4 making up our staff. But the biggest hit we took is losing Posey and they seem content with a rookie and a mediocre defensive backup taking over.

That's two big spots we took hits and we're penny pinching when all the talk was that we were going to be very active in the free agent market.

[sharksrog]

I too was worried about Curt's lack of offense and envisioned catcher as a place to improve. I even mentioned signing Yan Gomes if the Giants were concerned about Bart's readiness. But I must say that I'm impressed with a catcher who can handle his pitchers to five-sixth of a run less than Buster Posey. That's more than any catcher I know contributes offensively.

The Giants have only Bart and Casali on their roster as catchers, so I suspect they'll add another one on either a minor league or possibly major league contract. Curt Suzuki is an old hand who is available, although he had a very disappointing season at the plate in 2021.

As for the rotation, I hope you've seen all I've posted about the two re-signings and Cobb. One could perhaps argue that Cobb is only a #4 based on his slightly limited success until his promising 2021 season, but DeSclafani portrays as a strong #2, and Wood appears to be at least a #3. Health could be an issue, but ability? I don't think so.

Remember, a #2 usually has an ERA around the 3.40 to 3.89 range. A #3 is around the 3.90 to 4.39 area. And a #4 is more like 4.40 to 4.89. If DeSclafani, Wood and Cobb pitch to only the 4.40 to 4.89 range over their contracts, you were right. But even if we ignore the improvements they made last season, their career ERA's are 4.06, 3.50 and 3.87. They would have to decline significantly to fall to #4's.

You could look it up.

The Giants said they would be active in the free agent market, and they have been. They re-signed or signed Brandon Belt, the above trio, Trevor Hildenberger, Joe Duplantier and Mauricio Llovera as free agents, and they picked up Hunter Harvey, Austin Dean and Joe Palumbo as free agents. That's more than I can remember their doing before by December 1st.

Farhan has spoken more about trades than in previous winters, so we may still have something to look forward to there. And when baseball resumes its player/owner contract, there are still free agents available. If all else fails, I foresee an intriguing trade deadline.

Didn't you see what Reeder wrote about the Giants and Dodgers both looking like they're saving up a bit for bargains that could develop once baseball gets back to business? I don't mean to be harsh, but I feel as if you and Boly aren't seeing the bigger picture and are simply getting overly impatient.

[Islandboagie]

I'm happy they got Belt back, but he accepted a qualifying offer, that's not exactly being active in the free agent market.

I'm also glad they resigned Wood, and Desclafani, although the length of Desclafani's contract worries me a little. Cobb was a nice pickup, but I think he's a downgrade from Gausman. Reed compared Cobb to Gausman's second half..Gausman wasn't nearly as good in the second half.

And the rest of the guys you mentioned are minor league projects.

These moves don't replace the production we're missing with Gausman and Posey gone...when I hear a team has money to spend in the FA market I don't envision them resigning a few players from last season, signing a downgrade to fill a spot left from one of their best starters and not filling in the void by their franchise player that retired.

That being said, I'm not panicking. Zaidi may still have some tricks up his sleeve before spring, but right now I'm not seeing much, if any, upgrades that we've made anywhere. As it stands, our only chance of being competitive like we were last season is if the young kids step up.

[klaiggeb]

Dec 7, 2021 19:00:21 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Casali seems like a good teammate and clubhouse guy, I just worry about the lack of production offensively.

I believe we took a hit losing Gausman and settling with Webb and a handful of #4 making up our staff. But the biggest hit we took is losing Posey and they seem content with a rookie and a mediocre defensive backup taking over.

That's two big spots we took hits and we're penny pinching when all the talk was that we were going to be very active in the free agent market.

Penny pinching! Great call! I have been saying the same thing, but not in those words.

[klaiggeb]

Dec 7, 2021 22:59:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'm happy they got Belt back, but he accepted a qualifying offer, that's not exactly being active in the free agent market.

I'm also glad they resigned Wood, and Desclafani, although the length of Desclafani's contract worries me a little. Cobb was a nice pickup, but I think he's a downgrade from Gausman. Reed compared Cobb to Gausman's second half..Gausman wasn't nearly as good in the second half.

And the rest of the guys you mentioned are minor league projects.

These moves don't replace the production we're missing with Gausman and Posey gone...when I hear a team has money to spend in the FA market I don't envision them resigning a few players from last season, signing a downgrade to fill a spot left from one of their best starters and not filling in the void by their franchise player that retired.

That being said, I'm not panicking. Zaidi may still have some tricks up his sleeve before spring, but right now I'm not seeing much, if any, upgrades that we've made anywhere. As it stands, our only chance of being competitive like we were last season is if the young kids step up.

Again, very well said! I totally agree! We had money to spend and didn't do a bloody thing with it!

[sharksrog]

I think you guys may be looking at this incorrectly.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that had the Giants not issued the QO to Belt but instead signed Ray, Gausman, Gomes and Rizzo instead of Belt, DeSclafani, Wood and Cobb, you would be happier. The Giants would have signed two of the top free agent starters, and they would have replaced both Belt and Posey. Based on last season, they would have picked up 12 wins, and they would likely have spent about $285 million to do so. By instead signing or re-signing the quartet the did, they picked up or retained more than 11 wins based on last year. And they spent about $100 million to do so.

Based on last season, they picked up one fewer win, but they saved over $180 million in doing so. That's $180 million that could be available for Freddie Freeman or Carlos Rodon or Trevor Story or maybe just to lock up the young guys when they reach the majors in a couple of years.

Now, if they had signed the guys I mentioned, they would be looking even deeper for starters than they are now, and they might not need Curt Casali. But they might also not be playing Joey Bart as much, and if the Giants are to become what they can become in a couple more years, Joey will likely play an important role. He'll likely contribute as much next season as Gomes would, and beyond that he should contribute much more.

You guys say you trust Farhan, but your comments indicate otherwise. If we truly trust him, we should be quite happy with what he did with the $100 million or so he has spent thus far. And we would realize he's not yet done.

Look at the Dodgers. In Bauer, Kershaw and Seager, they have lost nine wins from last season and not really replaced much of their loss. The Giants have lost 10 wins in Posey and Gausman, but they have replaced 2 1/2 wins with Cobb, and they should received a similar contribution from Bart. The Giants have fared better this offseason than the Dodgers, and they've saved a ton of money in doing so.

I think you guys are looking more at the money spent than the quality of the guys who were signed or re-signed. I think you guys undervalue the pitchers in particular. If we add in the Giants' re-signing Brandon Crawford, they replaced about 17 wins from last season and spent $130 million in doing so. They could have spent at least $225 million to sign Ray and Gausman alone and replaced only about half that many wins.

You guys say you trust Farhan, but you seem to be looking at the Giants' signings not as Farhan is looking at them, but more as we used to. Farhan is about value, and you guys should be too. Farhan is looking at 2022, but he's realizing the Giants' best years are likely 2023 and beyond.

I think if one looks closely at Belt, DeSclafani, Wood, Cobb, Crawford and Bart and then at say Rizzo, Ray, Gausman, Gomes and Marcus Semien, one realizes the Giants could have spent somewhere around $325 million more and not improved their team by all that much more. The six the Giants have cost $130 million to retain. The guys I mentioned would have cost at least $460 million. Yes, I would prefer Rizzo, Ray, Gausman, Gomes (still with Bart) and Semien to Belt, DeSclafani, Wood, Cobb, Crawford and Bart, but I would prefer them only marginally -- not by three and a half times as the dollars would imply.

If you guys want the Giants to build another dynasty that is stronger and last longer than the one they had 10 years ago, you should respect the value of value investing the Farhan way. How has it worked so far?

Incidentally, I know you guys value team chemistry, and I would venture to say that the Giants' team chemistry heading forward will be at LEAST as good as it would have been had they signed the other guys I mentioned. I'll bet they'll win almost as many games as they would have won going the other way -- and look at all the money they've saved in going the direction they've headed.

Farhan said he would bring back many of their present players. Already done. He said he would sign at least one pitcher to a multi-year contract. Done. Farhan has already done what he said he would do, and he's got time and money to do even more as he sees fit.

All of us put together here don't know as much about the Giants and major league baseball as Farhan does. We say we trust him, but they we act as if we really don't.

I've been making the point that we should be answering far more questions here. We complain, but we don't give enough valid reasons for the complaints, and we certainly don't offer solid suggestions on how to fix the problems we believe exist. The question I would ask here is, are the Giants pinching pennies as Matt said and Boly agreed with, or are they spending their money wisely?

If we don't know the correct answer to that after the fabulous 2021 season, I'm not sure we're going to learn.

Have the Giants upgraded from last season? I wouldn't say so. But when you've got a 107-win team from which you could lose six important players and you want to keep team chemistry as well as good players, I think the goal is to keep the team chemistry and at least not lose TOO much talent. I would say the Giants have achieved that goal, and they still have time and money to do more.

I'm not sure why we're worried that the Giants re-signed DeSclafani for too long. He's only 31, and his past two full seasons have been the best of his career. He's also thrown only a little over 1200 innings in organized ball, and even if we include college and summer ball, he doesn't quite reach 1300 frames. Yes, he's had injuries, and there is some concern there. But the Giants signed him for less than a third what it would have cost to sign Ray or Gausman. The Giants are taking FAR less risk with DeSclafani than they would have been taking with either Ray or Gausman.

[reedonly]

Dec 8, 2021 10:02:25 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Dec 7, 2021 22:59:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'm happy they got Belt back, but he accepted a qualifying offer, that's not exactly being active in the free agent market.

I'm also glad they resigned Wood, and Desclafani, although the length of Desclafani's contract worries me a little. Cobb was a nice pickup, but I think he's a downgrade from Gausman. Reed compared Cobb to Gausman's second half..Gausman wasn't nearly as good in the second half.

And the rest of the guys you mentioned are minor league projects.

These moves don't replace the production we're missing with Gausman and Posey gone...when I hear a team has money to spend in the FA market I don't envision them resigning a few players from last season, signing a downgrade to fill a spot left from one of their best starters and not filling in the void by their franchise player that retired.

That being said, I'm not panicking. Zaidi may still have some tricks up his sleeve before spring, but right now I'm not seeing much, if any, upgrades that we've made anywhere. As it stands, our only chance of being competitive like we were last season is if the young kids step up.

Again, very well said! I totally agree! We had money to spend and didn't do a bloody thing with it!

Andrew Baggarly says all teams presently grade out as "incomplete".  All of the big market teams (Giants, Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox) all did not do much and they are all probably lurking. 

[reedonly]

Dec 7, 2021 22:59:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'm happy they got Belt back, but he accepted a qualifying offer, that's not exactly being active in the free agent market.

I'm also glad they resigned Wood, and Desclafani, although the length of Desclafani's contract worries me a little. Cobb was a nice pickup, but I think he's a downgrade from Gausman. Reed compared Cobb to Gausman's second half..Gausman wasn't nearly as good in the second half.

And the rest of the guys you mentioned are minor league projects.

These moves don't replace the production we're missing with Gausman and Posey gone...when I hear a team has money to spend in the FA market I don't envision them resigning a few players from last season, signing a downgrade to fill a spot left from one of their best starters and not filling in the void by their franchise player that retired.

That being said, I'm not panicking. Zaidi may still have some tricks up his sleeve before spring, but right now I'm not seeing much, if any, upgrades that we've made anywhere. As it stands, our only chance of being competitive like we were last season is if the young kids step up.

Boagie, you are correct in that sooner or later the young talent has to step up.  We are talking Bart now, Luciano, Ramos, and Matos later or all the international talent in hte lower levels. 

My feeling about Gausman was that first half Gausman left us about the time of the all star break, not after the season.   Outside of that first half, the second half numbers are very consistent with the whole of his career.  I'm afraid that's probably what Toronto is going to get.  Seeing as how Gausman was always listed in the top five of free agent pitchers, that would imply that the free agent pool is not very good.  The best available free agents were old and most of the rest were not very good.  I posted about the 2015 class of free agent pitchers being bad investments and the 2021 class feels even worse.  

Webb stepped up last season and a couple more need to do so in 2022. 

[sharksrog]

Here's the way I see this, Reeder. I believe that Matt and Boly significantly underrate DeSclafani, Wood and Cobb when they say they're just "guys" who are "#4's." Based on Fan Graphs' WAR last season, the Giants now have last season's #20 pitcher (Webb), the #41 pitcher (DeSclafani), the #49 pitcher (Wood) and #50 in Cobb.

Given that each team has five starters, there are 150 starters in the majors. The top 30 are by definition #1's for that season; #31 through #60 are #2's. That means that based on last year's performances, the Giants have a #1 starter in Webb, and three #2's in DeSclafani, Wood and Cobb.

Now, there is more than last season that goes into the equation, but it's really hard not to rank DeSclafani a #2, Webb at least a #3 and Cobb at least a #4. I'm open to Matt's and Boly's reasons why they see the last three as only #4's, but the evidence seems to contradict their opinions. Again, I'm open to being convinced, but neither one has given valid reasons for their ranking these guys so low. If these guys are below-average, how did their teams win so many games when they pitched? Both the Giants and especially the Angels won at a higher percentage when these guys pitched than when their other starters went.

To me Boly and Matt are so frustrating because they rarely give good reasons for their opinions. With regard to this discussion, I hope this time will be an exception. I love discussing differing opinions when good reasons are given, but it's extremely frustrating when that isn't the case.

[sharksrog]

Casali has a lower catcher's ERA than his team's in seven of his eight seasons. Three of the seven, his ERA has been lower by more than a full run. Last season even with Buster Posey as the Giants' primary catcher, his ERA was lower by over half a run. Casali's receiving skills seem to be the real deal and were likely the reason the Giants signed him last season. If he could just hit a little, he could provide a lot of value. As it is, his catching skills seem to carry the day for him as a backup receiver. And he might be a fine mentor for Joey Bart.

At first glance, Curt appears to be a weak link, but I don't think that is the case.

[klaiggeb]

Dec 8, 2021 18:19:05 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Dec 7, 2021 22:59:19 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

I'm happy they got Belt back, but he accepted a qualifying offer, that's not exactly being active in the free agent market.

I'm also glad they resigned Wood, and Desclafani, although the length of Desclafani's contract worries me a little. Cobb was a nice pickup, but I think he's a downgrade from Gausman. Reed compared Cobb to Gausman's second half..Gausman wasn't nearly as good in the second half.

And the rest of the guys you mentioned are minor league projects.

These moves don't replace the production we're missing with Gausman and Posey gone...when I hear a team has money to spend in the FA market I don't envision them resigning a few players from last season, signing a downgrade to fill a spot left from one of their best starters and not filling in the void by their franchise player that retired.

That being said, I'm not panicking. Zaidi may still have some tricks up his sleeve before spring, but right now I'm not seeing much, if any, upgrades that we've made anywhere. As it stands, our only chance of being competitive like we were last season is if the young kids step up.

Boagie, you are correct in that sooner or later the young talent has to step up.  We are talking Bart now, Luciano, Ramos, and Matos later or all the international talent in hte lower levels. 

My feeling about Gausman was that first half Gausman left us about the time of the all star break, not after the season.   Outside of that first half, the second half numbers are very consistent with the whole of his career.  I'm afraid that's probably what Toronto is going to get.  Seeing as how Gausman was always listed in the top five of free agent pitchers, that would imply that the free agent pool is not very good.  The best available free agents were old and most of the rest were not very good.  I posted about the 2015 class of free agent pitchers being bad investments and the 2021 class feels even worse.  

Webb stepped up last season and a couple more need to do so in 2022. 

Wow! I didn't know that, Reed! Basically the same stats he's had all career!

Thank you for pointing that out!

[sharksrog]

So based on the facts that Reeder pointed out, are you feeling better now about the Giants' three signings, Boly?

There are three positive things the Giants did in signing their trio instead of Kevin:

First, they spent $29 million less to do so.

Second, they diversified their risk between three players rather than putting the entire risk in one.

Third, they limited their risk to two years with two of the trio and to three years with DeSclafani, compared to five seasons of risk had they signed Gausman.

Do you now see how smart their signings were?

[reedonly]

Dec 11, 2021 19:56:56 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Dec 8, 2021 18:19:05 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Boagie, you are correct in that sooner or later the young talent has to step up.  We are talking Bart now, Luciano, Ramos, and Matos later or all the international talent in hte lower levels. 

My feeling about Gausman was that first half Gausman left us about the time of the all star break, not after the season.   Outside of that first half, the second half numbers are very consistent with the whole of his career.  I'm afraid that's probably what Toronto is going to get.  Seeing as how Gausman was always listed in the top five of free agent pitchers, that would imply that the free agent pool is not very good.  The best available free agents were old and most of the rest were not very good.  I posted about the 2015 class of free agent pitchers being bad investments and the 2021 class feels even worse.  

Webb stepped up last season and a couple more need to do so in 2022. 

Wow! I didn't know that, Reed! Basically the same stats he's had all career!

Thank you for pointing that out!

Also, NL West opponents figured him out. 

[sharksrog]

The amazing thing to me is that despite shutting out the Dodgers in his final outing of the regular season against them, Anthony DeSclafani posted a horrendous 7.33 ERA against them. But he went a Cy Young-like 2.37 against all the other teams he faced. Even if we just take away his 10-run start against the Dodgers in May, Anthony's ERA would have been 2.67.

Anthony was actually a pretty consistent pitcher last season -- against everyone but the Dodgers. Against them, with the exception of his September 3rd 6-inning shutout, he was pretty consistently AWFUL.

Regarding Gausman, did the NL West figure him out, or did he simply struggled (against just about everyone) in the second half? One thing that was a little bit optimistic for Kevin is that in his final two regular season starts against Colorado (at Denver) and the Padres, Kevin gave up only two runs in his final 13 innings.

[reedonly]

On KNBR yesterday, Krukow had a lengthy discussion about Bart and Casali. In 2020, Bart was totally overmatched to the point where he couldn't even catch a pitch cleanly. Krukow saw the ball rattling around in the catcher's mitt a lot. In 2021, catching the pitch has become crisp. As assumed, the Giants are looking at Casali as a mentor to Bart. They will go over things like pitch framing, how to pitch opponents, how to deal with umpires. The last aspect might end up being the most valuable and its easier to pick up things with hands on training rather than just have someone tell him.

BTW, I now don't view Bart as a trade chip. I have read that Bailey has been having trouble hitting at High-A so its not as if he can just step in if Bart falters. Also, he's a year or two behind Bart defensively.

[klaiggeb]

Thanks,Reed. That was info to which I don't have access

[sharksrog]

Teams can use two good catchers these days. Catchers rarely start much over 100 games, which leaves plenty of work to go around -- especially if the DH becomes universal or at least one of the two catchers can play another position as Buster Posey did. While always looking for excellent trade opportunities, why not develop both catchers to keep all options open?

For Boly, it's easy to follow the minor leagues. Just go to milb.com or to the web sites of the Giants' affiliates. If we don't see ow players are developing, we're seeing only part of the picture.

For those who are concerned about Patrick, he began last season with a .149 batting average in May, but he rebounded to hit .333 in August with a 1.066 OPS and .367 in September with a 1.008 OPS. In addition, he's considered to be very strong defensively. He's very agile, and he recorded 27 assists in his first 25 minor league games, including 13 runners caught stealing.

The Giants had to be highly impressed to draft Patrick, given that they already had Buster Posey and Buster's planned successor in Joey Bart. I really like the idea of drafting the best prospect available.

[sharksrog]

From Around the Foghorn:

Bailey’s ability behind the plate gets consistently rave reviews. He was the best defensive catcher in the 2020 draft class and while his focus has wavered at times this season, he has the tools to become an above-average defender.

[reedonly]

Dec 17, 2021 14:42:13 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

From Around the Foghorn:

Bailey’s ability behind the plate gets consistently rave reviews. He was the best defensive catcher in the 2020 draft class and while his focus has wavered at times this season, he has the tools to become an above-average defender.

A Giants catcher named "Bailey".... good omen.   The elder Bailey caught Juan Marichal's no hitter. 

[sharksrog]

I didn't realize that, Reeder. And I was there.

I have mentioned this before, but I don't think you've seen it. The key moment in preserving the no-hitter came when Jimmy Wynn hit a sharp drive to deep left-center. All eyes were on the great Willie Mays, flying over to his backhand to try to keep the ball from falling in for extra bases. But we'll never know for sure whether Mays could have caught the ball, because the taller Willie McCovey somehow ranged over to cut in front of Mays to make a fine running catch on Willie Mac's own backhand. Might have been the best play McCovey made in his 275 appearances as an outfielder.

McCovey's knees prevented him from getting great jumps, but he could motor pretty well once he hit sixth gear, and he was actually a good base runner going from first to third.

[sharksrog]

Gotta admit. There aren't too many Lonas Edgar's out there.

[sharksrog]

Not even Ed, who passed away nearly 15 years ago. But not before he was on six All-Star teams, his final one with the Giants in 1963. Ed and Tom Haller combined for 35 homers in 1962, even though with both hitting from the left side, they were less than ideal platoon partners. Neither one hit lefties worth a darn that season.

[reedonly]

Dec 18, 2021 12:57:16 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

I didn't realize that, Reeder. And I was there.

I have mentioned this before, but I don't think you've seen it. The key moment in preserving the no-hitter came when Jimmy Wynn hit a sharp drive to deep left-center. All eyes were on the great Willie Mays, flying over to his backhand to try to keep the ball from falling in for extra bases. But we'll never know for sure whether Mays could have caught the ball, because the taller Willie McCovey somehow ranged over to cut in front of Mays to make a fine running catch on Willie Mac's own backhand. Might have been the best play McCovey made in his 275 appearances as an outfielder.

McCovey's knees prevented him from getting great jumps, but he could motor pretty well once he hit sixth gear, and he was actually a good base runner going from first to third.

Willie Mays, Juan Marichal, Ed Bailey, Willie McCovey, Toy Cannon.  Good times.

[sharksrog]

I didn't see it, but I fell asleep listening to it -- Juan Marichal's famous 16-inning shutout dual with Warren Spahn. When Willie Mays hit the homer in the bottom of the 16th, either Russ Hodges or Lon Simmons got really excited, the volume on my radio went up, and it woke me up. Given that my two favorite players were Willie and Juanito, what a great way to wake up!

I also got to see one of Sandy Koufax's no-hitters against the Giants and the one by Ed Halicki. On the latter, I remember my dad and I called my grandpa in between double header games from a phone booth at Candlestick. I remember telling my grandpa that the wind was blowing like crazy, and the second game would probably be a wild one. Never had a CLUE it would result in a no-hitter. Ho-Ho.

[klaiggeb]

Dec 18, 2021 21:49:14 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Dec 18, 2021 12:57:16 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

I didn't realize that, Reeder. And I was there.

I have mentioned this before, but I don't think you've seen it. The key moment in preserving the no-hitter came when Jimmy Wynn hit a sharp drive to deep left-center. All eyes were on the great Willie Mays, flying over to his backhand to try to keep the ball from falling in for extra bases. But we'll never know for sure whether Mays could have caught the ball, because the taller Willie McCovey somehow ranged over to cut in front of Mays to make a fine running catch on Willie Mac's own backhand. Might have been the best play McCovey made in his 275 appearances as an outfielder.

McCovey's knees prevented him from getting great jumps, but he could motor pretty well once he hit sixth gear, and he was actually a good base runner going from first to third.

Willie Mays, Juan Marichal, Ed Bailey, Willie McCovey, Toy Cannon.  Good times.

Reed: Not sure why Jimmy Wynn is on this list... he wasn't a Giant

[reedonly]

Dec 19, 2021 10:42:51 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Dec 18, 2021 21:49:14 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Willie Mays, Juan Marichal, Ed Bailey, Willie McCovey, Toy Cannon.  Good times.

Reed: Not sure why Jimmy Wynn is on this list... he wasn't a Giant

Gisnt or not, he played the game hard and even Hank Aaron thought Wynn was the true HR champ in 1967 because Wynn played in the Astrodome while Aaron played in Fulton County.  

[reedonly]

BTW, the Giants just sigmed Jhonny Pereda to a minor league contract. unimpressive minor league totals of about a .250 BA in AA and AAA but supposedly knows defense and decent K/BB ratio

[sharksrog]

If one followed the specifics of the thread, those were the PRECISE players to be in it, Reeder. The reason we're discussing the game isn't because the Giants won it, but because it was Juan Marichal's only no-hitter. And the key moment in that game was when Jimmy Wynn hit the long drive between the two Willies, one of whom was in his unusual position of left field.

Maybe you had to be there to understand the play to its fullest, but believe me, all eyes were on Willie Mays, and Willie might well have made a great running catch. Certainly he had made many of them, and that was just what the crowd was hoping for given that Juanito was in the 8th inning (IIRC) of the no-hitter, and Jimmy had hit the ball hard, deep and well-placed. What I don't think anyone was expecting given the circumstances was for the Willie who robbed Winn to be McCovey, who because he was five or six inches taller than Mays was able to cut in front, so that we'll never know for sure if Mays could have made the play.