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Post by sharksrog on Nov 21, 2021 16:14:15 GMT -5
I just realized, "Hang Mike Pence; it's common sense" rhymes.
Then again, so does "Don't support Trump; he's rump."
Or "Don't support Gaetz; he just hates."
Or "You can't go far with Gosar."
I agree with not supporting these guys, but not with hanging Mike Pence.
You know the weird thing? If we hadn't moved from Huntington, Indiana, when I was a kid, I probably would have been friends with Dan Quayle! As a guy, Quayle was a whale (of a guy?)? You know how Dan won VP? He ran. (And apparently he had a fan - or at least his president did.) And he was from Indi-ann.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 21, 2021 16:15:33 GMT -5
So how again is it common sense to chant "Hang Mike Pence," Matt?
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 21, 2021 17:11:02 GMT -5
I don't think it's common sense to chant anything of the sort, or to riot and destroy property. That's been my opinion the whole time, from the riots in the summer of 2020 through the riot on Jan 6.
Why did your opinion change on Jan 6? During 2020 you thought it was "mostly peaceful" then all of a sudden on Jan 6th it became a violent attack on Democracy.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 21, 2021 17:52:36 GMT -5
I think that if you go back, Matt, you'll see that other than Kyle Rittenhouse I didn't comment much until January 6th, which was horrendous. I doubt you realize how horrendous it was, since I don't think you've watched "Four Hours at the Capitol," and I don't think you paid much attention to the many hours of other footage. You were likely at work when it occurred, but I was watching it live.
For the moment, let's not worry about how much Trump contributed to riling up the crowd with his lies. Let's just look at three extremely foolish things he has said:
First, he said January 6th "a very beautiful time." Indeed it was -- if one ignores the hundreds of injuries, multiple deaths, hundreds who have been arrested and the attack on democracy.
Then he said that the election was the insurrection and that January 6th was the protest. Aside from the facts, that's pretty much true.
Finally, he said that it was "common sense" for the rioters to chant "Hang Mike Pence." And indeed it WAS common sense -- except to those who have a modicum of common sense.
My opinion didn't change on January 6th, but aside from September 11th, it was the worst thing I've seen on TV. That it was OUR terrorists doing it, not terrorists from the Middle East, made it all the more scary. That our president may well have contributed to it and at the very least was highly negligent in stopping it just adds to the terror. That he CONTINUES to lie about it just puts the sour cherry on top.
You now say you don't think it's common sense to chant "Hang Mike Pence," Matt. Yet you continue to support the liar who made such a foolish statement. He called January 6th "a beautiful time." The man is a monster whom you continue to enable.
As for common sense, I've told you I'm a pacifist. Do you think I support any type of rioting or destruction of property? I agree with you that the riots AND January 6th were horrible. The way police often treat minorities is horrible. The way Trump has failed to call out groups like the KKK, Q-Anon and the Proud Boys (with whom Kyle Rittenhouse has apparently associated) and the way he has shown support for neo-Nazi's and white supremacists is horrible. The way voting rights are being trampled is horrible, as well.
Hey, the Democrats have made plenty of mistakes too. There are many of them I don't like. True Republicans probably have my greatest support. Democrats are too parochial, and I just called them out for being so critical of Rittenhouse's being found non-guilty, when based on the evidence I have seen -- and I've seen more than many of them apparently -- the verdict was proper. The situation wasn't, but the verdict was.
But some of the Democrats for instance have criticized the former governor of New York, President Biden being among those who did so. A Democratic congressman voted AGAINST the bill that passed on Friday. But the Trumpers have taken over the Republican Party, and they won't vote for ANYTHING that might be considered to come from the Democrats. And anyone who DOES vote for anything that could be considered anti-Trump is called on the carpet in an attempt to drum them right out of the party.
Some of the most moral politicians I know are the ones who have voted against Trump at various times. Never mind that many of those they supported him 90% of the time. Once they went against him on something he deemed important, they were dead to him. Take a look at how Trump has praised people when he thought they supported them, and then how he tore them apart once he believed they had crossed him.
Cross democracy, and Trump isn't likely to bat an eye. But cross HIM, and you won't believe the vitriol. Actually, you don't even have to truly cross him. He merely has to THINK that you did.
If it isn't anywhere close to common sense to shout "Hang Mike Pence," Matt, why did Trump say it was? If January 6th at its very best was far from "a beautiful time," why did Trump say that's what it was?
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 21, 2021 21:08:19 GMT -5
Rog- He called January 6th "a beautiful time." The man is a monster whom you continue to enable.
Boagie- He was referring to the rally before the riot started, see this is what I mean about you buying a twisted narrative the media feeds you, Rog. They get a quote from Trump then associate it with something that makes him look bad and they peddle it to people like you. This is the exact definition of fake news, and you're a ignorant victim of it.
Rog- As for common sense, I've told you I'm a pacifist. Do you think I support any type of rioting or destruction of property? I agree with you that the riots AND January 6th were horrible. The way police often treat minorities is horrible. The way Trump has failed to call out groups like the KKK, Q-Anon and the Proud Boys (with whom Kyle Rittenhouse has apparently associated) and the way he has shown support for neo-Nazi's and white supremacists is horrible. The way voting rights are being trampled is horrible, as well.
Boagie- I think you turn away from anything that makes the Democrats look bad, and you clutch onto anything that makes Trump look bad, which is a common symptom of TDS.
As for condemning those radical right wing groups, I sent you a video of Trump calling them out many times, did you not watch the video or are you just forgetful, or are you just purposely turning away from the truth again?
You want me to hate Trump for some reason, yet I don't expect you to like Trump because Im not arrogant enough to think it's my duty to create a world in which everyone should believe as I do, I just expect you to be level headed and fair. I think I've displayed that I am level headed and fair, why can't you?
Finally, explain to me how voter rights are being trampled.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2021 14:12:02 GMT -5
Why would I want you to hate Donald? I don't hate him, or anyone else. I do, however, hate his actions, which have been a huge threat to our democracy.
You will will show that you're level-headed and fair when you can honestly and logically answer my questions, many of which are of key importance to our democracy.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2021 14:38:33 GMT -5
You are correct that when Trump called January 6th "a very beautiful time," he was referring to his speech. But that shows how his narcissism doesn't allow him to put things into any kind of perspective. He did acknowledge that the day was "marred by what took place" after his speech. But he was also concerned that the "fake news" didn't report the size of the crowd, showing how little perspective he had for the events of the day. (Anyone watching on TV saw how large the crowd was, and quite frankly, that made what happened afterward and its potential for explosiveness all the more frightening.
Wouldn't someone with any kind of perspective downplayed his speech given the horrifying events of the day, which included deaths, six-figure injuries and arrests and already many convictions, or at least after saying "it was a very beautiful time" added "up until the injuries, deaths and threat to democracy started?" Perhaps at least added, "That put a bit of a damper on a day that had started out so beautifully. Hard to believe a day could start out so beautifully and then degrade into what many think was one of the darkest days of our lifetimes." One might even have added, "If I had had any idea what the day would lead to, I might have done a few things differently."
But, no, for Trump it apparently was a very successful day. In fact, if Mike Pence had gone ahead and broken the constitution as Trump had implored him to do, Donald would have thought it was one of the best days in our history.
Never mind that the Supreme and 60 other courts had said there was no evidence -- NO EVIDENCE -- of widespread fraud. Never mind that our constitution set up three branches of government so that they would balance each other and that by trying to override the Supreme Court -- the top court in the land -- Trump was committing an act against the constitution.
Remember when we learned civics growing up how important it was that our forefathers had the foresight to set up three branches of government so they would provide a balance of power? Trump tried to override that.
One question we have to ask ourselves is whether or not Trump caused the January 6th insurrection, he didn't call off the dogs, even as his cabinet and relatives implored him to do so. Why did he not call out the National Guard when he could see on TV how badly needed they were? Why when after hours he finally told his followers to go home did he tell them they were "very special" when he could clearly see on TV that vast amounts of violence had occurred and that the Capitol had been breached?
Am I wrong when I say that the apparent reason is that he's a narcissist, and he cares first, foremost and almost only about himself?
Former President Donald Trump called January 6, the day of the Capitol riot, "a very beautiful time" in a March interview with ABC News correspondent Jonathan Karl, according to Karl's forthcoming book.
During the interview at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Palm Beach, Trump praised the supporters who attended his speech in which he urged his loyalists to march to the Capitol and protest Congress' certification of then-President-elect Joe Biden's victory.
When Karl asked Trump why he tweeted, "Remember this day forever," hours after the deadly riot, Trump told him that Jan. 6 was "a very beautiful time with extremely loving and friendly people — the largest crowd that I've ever spoken before — with tremendous spirit. And I'm referring to that."
Trump went on, "I'm referring to when I made a speech which was perfectly fine. Some people thought it was mild-mannered .... it was a relatively mind-mannered speech."
Karl said he wasn't expecting Trump to express remorse for his role in inciting the deadly mob, but that he was shocked at how the former president recalled the day with pride.
"I was taken aback by how fondly he remembers a day I will always remember as one of the darkest I have ever witnessed," Karl writes in "Betrayal: The Final Act of the Trump Show," an advanced copy of which was obtained by Insider.
Trump also insisted that "the fake news" didn't report on the large size of the crowd on the National Mall.
"When I made that speech, it was a magnificently beautiful day," he told Karl. "They never gave the credit to the size of the crowd when the crowd went all the way back to the Washington Monument."
Trump conceded that the day was "marred by what took place" after his speech.
The former president also said he wasn't worried for then-Vice President Mike Pence's safety, even as Trump's loyalists called for Pence's execution and erected a gallows outside the Capitol.
Trump went on to justify his supporters' chants of "hang Mike Pence."
"It's common sense," he said. "How can you — if you know a vote is fraudulent, how can you pass a fraudulent vote to Congress? How can you do it?"
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2021 14:49:06 GMT -5
You ask, how are voter rights being trampled? Well, let's look at what voters do.
In our democracy, every legal vote is equally important. To make our democracy as broad as possible, we want every legal voter to vote. On the other side of the coin, we want as few illegal votes as possible.
So we have two objectives: Make it as easy as is feasible for legal voters to vote, so that our vote will be as representative of our people as possible, and take appropriate action to limit illegal votes as much as is feasible.
Voter rights are being trampled now because we're making it harder for people to vote when we should be making it easier.
Our country has consistently increased the right to vote. In the beginning, it was mostly white male landholders. Now the vote has spread to women and people of color. It is now available to people at the same age as they can be drafted if we have an armed forces draft. That is a very good thing, since limiting voters limits our democracy.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 22, 2021 15:32:32 GMT -5
You are correct that Trump has indeed spoken against far-right groups, but he's been rather ambivalent about it. Many times he has had the national opportunity -- such as in his town hall and in debates before the 2020 election -- to call them out, and he has failed to do so or even lied.
Rather than call out the Proud Boys, he told them to "Stand back and stand by." That was such a putdown of them that they adopted it as their motto.
Rather than call out Q-Anon, he denied he knew anything about them -- and then said that he knew they supported children. (In reality, they have advanced a conspiracy theory that Democrats and Hollywood types have kidnapped children and IIRC that they even eat their hearts.)
Before the 2016 election, he denied he knew who David Duke, the head of the KKK, was, even though many years before then he had called Duke out.
Do you deny that if Donald says something, it is as likely to be wrong or a lie as it is to be truthful and correct? Fact checkers have identified more than 30,000 falsehoods he told just during his time as president. That's over 20 a day, and it's easily a new record.
Don't hate Donald Trump. Do hate his lies though.
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