Bart's Defense

[sharksrog]

We've asked some questions about Joey Bart's defense, so I was encouraged to see this excerpt from last spring's Fan Graphs evaluation of Joey:

Bart’s defensive tools become the foundation of his skillset. He’s Mike Alstott’s size but with the lateral quickness and ground game of a small-framed catcher. He’s quick out of his crouch and throws accurate lasers to second base. He also has field general qualities: he’s a rousing, vocal leader at times, a calming presence at others.

[Islandboagie]

I'm not sure how Bart's defense became a negative thing here on the board. Obviously he had some growing pains in 2020, and it was highlighted in the media because Johnny Cueto and him couldn't get on the same page. But to me that has more to do with Cueto refusing to learn the language during his 14 year career. Veterans should help the rookies, Cueto just wanted to pass blame for his shitty pitching.

[reedonly]

Mike Krukow kept bringing up Bart's defense on knbr. He was able to watch Bart on TV since he gets Rivercats games in Reno. Last year, he said at least two times "he's not ready" as in not being ready to serve as a backup catcher.  I'm not sure exactly what the deficiencies were.  Supposedly, most catchers need a year at each minor league level and he fell a year behind when they didn't play in 2020. 

[sharksrog]

Joey is a bit of an enigma. When he was drafted, he had a very good reputation on both sides of the ball. It was viewed as a plus that he was allowed to call his own games in college. He was believed to have big-time power, with the biggest question being how high an average he would hit for.

Now there seems to be a question or two about his defense, and last season he hit for average but not power. With Mike being one of Joey's critics, I wonder if perhaps he needs to improve on his pitch-calling and/or perhaps his framing.

It appears that barring injury, we'll find out this season.

[reedonly]

Krukow said he had a hard time learning the one knee method and was resistant because he had success in college with the traditional squat.  I thought it was his strikeouts but Krukow says its his defense. 

[reedonly]

From Facebook KNBR (August 2020): Johnny Cueto and Joey Bart had some communication issues in their first time working together, but the pitcher refused to place any blame on the rookie.

“He’s the future of the franchise. He is young. We will work together and we will get to know each other.”

From Twitter (march 2021): Johnny Cueto on the communication issues with catcher Joey Bart tonight: “I think we just have to get in sync. It seems like we’re always lost.” Cueto said Bart is a young player and will learn to adjust.

[Islandboagie]

On the surface that looks like Cueto said the appropriate thing, but notice he's talking about Bart being young and needing to adjust, rather than himself needing to adjust to a new catcher? I mean if it were just his words I'd let it pass, but the fit he threw on the mound is why that became an issue in the first place. Johnny Cueto wasn't good anymore at that point, those who are just taking up roster space should be the ones adjusting, not lecturing the new kids on how they should adjust to him.

[reedonly]

Cueto is gone.

[klaiggeb]

Call it being in sync with your catcher, call it being on the same page, call it whatever you want. But I can speak from personal experience that sometimes there isn't Good chemistry between the catcher and the pitcher.

And when that's not there, being a guy who was on the mound, it's hard to get into a rhythm where you can set up your pitches, set up the hitter, and be real fine with your strikes, because your brain is still struggling to figure out if this is the right pitch, should I throw something else, why isn't he suggesting...

It's complicated, and there is no easy answer.

Johnny cueto and Joey Bart is the current example, but I can think of one going back to the 1960s, when Jack Sanford only wanted to pitch to Tom Haller, and refused to pitch to Ed Bailey the veteran catcher.

The important thing is that the pitching staff and the catching staff have to be in sync, they have to have a good chemistry, and if that's not there between any of the two, you're going to be problems.

[reedonly]

Nothing new in baseball. A lot of pitchers have personal catchers such as Lester, Cole, Kershw, Maddux, etc.

[klaiggeb]

Nov 15, 2021 10:10:47 GMT -5 reedonly said:

Nothing new in baseball. A lot of pitchers have personal catchers such as Lester, Cole, Kershw, Maddux, etc.

That is a fact, Reed. No question at all.

My point in the post is that, other than Cueto throwing a hissy fit, there should be no reason not to give Bart a legitimate shot.

Just because he struggled with one pitcher doesn't mean he'll struggle with others.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Steve Carlton insist that McCaver be his personal catcher?

[sharksrog]

Steve McCarver was indeed Steve Carlton's personal catcher. We may have forgotten it, and it's perhaps a bit surprising, but Tim Lincecum didn't particularly like to pitch to Buster Posey. I'm guessing that Buster took an analytical approach to pitch-calling, while Tim was probably more of a gut feel type of guy. I believe Buster did catch both of Tim's no-hitters.

I think that unless the team directs otherwise, it is up to the catcher to adjust to the pitcher. Ideally they would compromise and get on the same page, but unless the catcher has a reason he can sell the pitcher on, I think the pitcher should have the final call on which pitch to throw. It's the pitcher's ERA.

Thanks for bringing up that Joey was having a hard time adjusting to the one-knee style, Reed. I hadn't heard that. I would say that Boly is in the best position to help us judge which style would be better. I guess that the more control the pitcher has, the better the one-knee style would work, but it certainly limits a catcher's lateral mobility. In addition, I would think it makes throwing more difficult. Is part of the advantage of the one-knee style that the catcher sets up lower, giving the umpire a better view of the pitch?

[reedonly]

The one knee is supposed to give the pitcher more of the bottom of the strike zone but sacrifice throwing and mobility. They are aware of this and have run the metrics and feel it is more beneficial to get the bottom of the strike zone.

[sharksrog]

I wonder if the metrics change with a runner on third base and two outs? Obviously they DO change, but do they change by enough for the added mobility to outweigh the lessened pitch framing ability? Probably depends on the control and perhaps other tendencies of the pitcher. And the catcher's ability to block balls with lessened mobility.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- Steve McCarver was indeed Steve Carlton's personal catcher. We may have forgotten it, and it's perhaps a bit surprising, but Tim Lincecum didn't particularly like to pitch to Buster Posey. I'm guessing that Buster took an analytical approach to pitch-calling, while Tim was probably more of a gut feel type of guy. I believe Buster did catch both of Tim's no-hitters.

Boagie- Incorrect. Hector Sanchez caught Timmy's second no-hitter.

I'm not sure where it came from but there was talk that Tim and Buster didn't meld well together, but I don't think that was the case. Tim pitched well throughout the 2010 post-season while throwing to Buster. The next season he was a good pitcher, but not dominant like he was before. Tim was never the same after the 2010 post-season, perhaps because pitching so deep that season put too much stress on his arm.

[sharksrog]

Thanks for correcting me about the second no-hitter, Matt. I remember the Buster hug after the first one, and I couldn't remember the second, which because of vacation I had to watch several days after the fact. The funny thing about the second one was that I was just leaving Kentucky for Indiana when I got a call from the number of my friend up near you (Bremerton). I normally don't take calls when driving, but my friend was old enough then (and now deceased), that as soon as I could pull over, I took the call, since I knew there was a possibility it could be his wife calling to tell me he had had to go to the hospital or even passed away.

Instead, my friend answered the phone and told me Tim had pitched a no-hitter. I said, yes, but it was almost a year ago. He said, no, he pitched another one! I was pretty darn excited.

The funny thing about Tim and Buster though was that while we almost always hear how great it was to pitch to Buster, Tim actually preferred Hector. As I mentioned, the only thing I could figure out was that Buster was highly analytical in his pitch-calling, while I suspect Tim was more of a feel guy.

Hector started 122 games behind the plate for the Giants, and it wouldn't surprise me if half or more came with Tim on the mound.

As for Tim's 2011 season compared to his 2012 season, Tim was still quite good in 2011. His 2.74 ERA was right in the middle of his ERA's in his first five years and was actually close to his 2.62 and 2.48 ERA's in his two Cy Young seasons. Entering his final start of 2011, Tim was actually at 2.59, or in the middle of his two Cy Young ERA's. It was in 2012 that his career took a sharp and sudden turn.

2010 was actually the first season after his rookie year that Tim began to show cracks. After a fabulous start to the 2010 season (1.27 ERA in April), Tim faltered in May, struggling to a 4.95 mark. He was back to being Tim in June (3.09) and July (3.02), but he really hit the skids in August (7.82). The very first day of September he got back on track (from the chemistry book I remember that someone -- Bruce Bochy? -- had talked to him and rebuilt his confidence) with a 2-1 win over Ubaldo Jimenez (the night Darren Ford took third base on a wild pitch in the bottom of the 8th and went home on a throwing error), and he pitched to a 1.74 ERA in September before winning the award as the Most Valuable Player in the 2010 playoffs).

I was dying through that August, and then for a couple of reasons, September 1st was one of the most memorable days of my life.

[reedonly]

Nov 15, 2021 22:54:35 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Rog- Steve McCarver was indeed Steve Carlton's personal catcher. We may have forgotten it, and it's perhaps a bit surprising, but Tim Lincecum didn't particularly like to pitch to Buster Posey. I'm guessing that Buster took an analytical approach to pitch-calling, while Tim was probably more of a gut feel type of guy. I believe Buster did catch both of Tim's no-hitters.

Boagie- Incorrect. Hector Sanchez caught Timmy's second no-hitter.

I'm not sure where it came from but there was talk that Tim and Buster didn't meld well together, but I don't think that was the case. Tim pitched well throughout the 2010 post-season while throwing to Buster. The next season he was a good pitcher, but not dominant like he was before. Tim was never the same after the 2010 post-season, perhaps because pitching so deep that season put too much stress on his arm.

Boagie, I get the opportunity to listen to KNBR before and after work on my commute and when there was a game on the way home with Timmy pitching, Hecotr was refered to as his personal catcher by announcers. 

[sharksrog]

Years ago I used to listen while I worked to Marty Lurie after Giants games. I like Marty a lot, and he has some interview tapes of old-timers that likely have significant baseball historical value.

But on this particular day, he decided to have a contest with his listeners to come up with the best possible nickname for Buster Posey. Things were progressing in an interesting manner until a listener called in and reminded Marty that Buster WAS Gerald's nickname. That does show how common Buster's name had become -- that we didn't even think of it as a nickname. We had never known him by any other.