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Post by sharksrog on Nov 6, 2021 5:43:37 GMT -5
Reed, you told the truth. You said the election was over 12 months ago.
The problem is that Trump has spent the last year trying to get us to believe otherwise. And the truly sad and dangerous thing is that with people like Matt, he has succeeded.
Never mind the Supreme Court. Never mind the other 60 courts. Never mind the Republican election officials. Never mind Trump's Attorney General and his Justice Department. Never mind honest Republican politicians.
Doesn't it bother anyone that on January 6th, Trump never DID call out the National Guard, that Mike Pence had to do it? That despite being implored by his staff and relatives to call of the dogs, Trump instead waited hours to do so -- and then praised his followers at the Capitol and told them he loved them and that they were special?
Why are you so afraid of the truth about January 6th coming out, Matt? If it had been nothing to worry about as you say, wouldn't the facts show that? Shouldn't you be rooting for the facts to come out to prove you right? Shouldn't Donald Trump want the facts to come out to prove him innocent?
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 7, 2021 11:45:00 GMT -5
I thought it was a flash mob taking selfies Basically, yes.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 7, 2021 13:53:53 GMT -5
Yes the facts would show it, Rog, but Liberals only care about facts when it supports their narrative. So why should anyone try to present facts to Liberals like you when you just ignore them? More people died and were injured during the BLM and Antifa riots than occurred on Jan 6, yet you will fixate on Jan 6 as being the true threat to this country because that ONE riot made Trump look bad, whereas the countless other riots throughout the Summer prior to that were orchestrated by Liberal leaning groups, and supported by Liberal politicians. Those are facts, Rog.
The facts coming out about Jan 6th would likely portray Trump as acting improperly during a moment when he should have been a leader...I don't disagree with that. I've stated that to you many times. But I felt he also acted improperly during the BLM and Antifa riots. He should have federalized the national guard and brought in the Marines to stop the riots, Just as George H.W. Bush did during the Rodney King riots. I've explained my position on this to you, Rog, I told you I didn't like the way Trump behaved in his final days, but you don't accept my level of anger because you're deranged, and want everyone to be as swayed by media sources as you are. That's not happening with me, so forget it.
You want facts, Rog?..here's some facts:
It's a fact that when BLM and Antifa stormed our City Hall and police precinct here in Seattle the Liberal media portrayed it as upset minorities choosing their right to protest, while on Jan 6th it's portrayed as an insurrection aimed at toppling our Democracy.
It's a fact that the Liberal media painted Trump as a monster when he built the wall on the southern border. An idea they supported when Democratic Presidents suggested the same. Their opinion was that Trump is just a racist that doesn't like brown people, and criticized the idea of building the wall because "walls don't work." Of course they also often equated Trump's wall with the Berlin wall to add to the narrative.
Yet when rioters took over Seattle and Portland what was the first thing they did? They built barriers and walls to keep the police out. These were the same BLM/Antifa douchebags calling walls racist. To the Liberal media and Liberal politicians this was merely just peaceful protesting. Do you see the hipocracy here? Probably not.
You tell everyone here to open their mind, well I've opened my mind. I see nothing wrong with protesting, but when that turns to rioting, it needs to be stopped and definitely not supported by politicians or the media. When it's supported it grows, just as it did in the summer of 2020.
The Liberals turned the other cheek when it came to the BLM riots, so they should have nothing to say about the Jan 6 riots. They are only upset about it because the mob was coming for them. Democrats AND Republicans were running like babies, hiding in bunkers and safe rooms. I'm actually upset that the mob didn't catch up with them...you know why? Because when the mob was coming for innocent victims and business owners those same leaders did NOTHING! You know who DID do something? Kyle Rittenhouse did something because our leaders wouldn't, Rog. Is that strong leadership to you? To only care about your own self and disregard those who need help? That's why I won't watch your HBO documentary on Jan 6, because quite honestly I don't give a rat's ass. I don't need to hear about how some scared politician had to leave his or her caviar and champagne lounge and barricade themselves in their wine and cigar room. It only shows just how detached and corrupt they've become. They can all go to hell.
I'll tell you another difference about the BLM/Antifa riots and the Jan 6 riot. The BLM/Antifa riots were directed mainly at the police, and affected local businesses. The Jan 6 riots were directed at politicians...drop all your mind control by Liberal media for one second and think about that...of the two groups who do you think got closer to actually getting to the root of the problem in this country? Who do you think really deserved to have their day ruined...the police and local business owners, or the greedy politicians?
I don't condone either acts of unlawful behavior, but the Jan 6 riot had more purpose in my opinion. The rioters on both sides were a bunch of morons, but at least the rioters on Jan 6 had their anger directed at the right people. The BLM/Antifa kids were just brainwashed stooges of the mainstream media and Liberal politicians looking to make Trump a one term president. They won, and the business owners, decent law abiding citizens and the police lost.
This all (plus changing the rules leading up to the election and finding votes for Biden in the middle of the night) was a calculated strategy by the Democratic party to take the power back, and as I've said before, they pulled it off masterfully. As just an average citizen they've proven to me over these last few years that I no longer have a voice in this country, my vote apparently doesn't matter anymore, because they'll conveniently find more in the middle of the night that have the opposing view. But I'm not that upset by that because there's nobody really worth voting for. So I can do nothing else now but tip my cap to them.
I've given up on fair elections and reasonable politicians, Rog. That's why I've stated that I really don't like talking politics with someone who is so heavily brainwashed by an openly corrupt party that controls almost every avenue of information now. They're using Jan 6 to shut down every opposing voice on social media that is widely owned and run by their friends who are as delusional as yourself. And now you're trying to do that same thing here because you've been told by your heroes that it's ok. That's the only reason I'm posting this. What you've seen over the last two years by the Democratic party IS the real threat to our Democracy. They've checked all the boxes..censorship, thugs beating people in the streets who oppose them, complete control of the media, fixed elections, and government control of the supply chain. You're right, there is a threat to our Democracy, what you don't understand is you're on the side that's threatening it.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:04:30 GMT -5
Why do you care about the facts only when it suits your narrative, Matt?
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:05:50 GMT -5
Matt, you keep calling me a liberal. I must have been an idiot over my life to vote mostly Republican. If I were a liberal, wouldn't I register Democrat?
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:12:51 GMT -5
What I am, Matt, is a person who lets the facts take him where they lead. For quite a while I thought the facts led me toward Donald Trump, which made for an interesting dinner with a member of the local Democratic Party. As I've mentioned, she tolerated my jokes well, even though they were favoring Donald. And as I've also mentioned, the more she drank, the funnier she thought I got.
When I was for Trump, I got along well with friends who were Democrats. Now I get along well with friends who are Republicans. But none of them has been able to give a decent explanation of how they ignore Trump's lies. My belief is that a true Republican, such as myself, can't in good conscience support Trump, who may have hurt this country more than any previous politician, possibly including Jefferson Davis. We've now had more deaths from COVID than we suffered in the Civil War I believe. And COVID has certainly cost more than the Civil War, although perhaps not in real dollar terms.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:16:15 GMT -5
You said absolutely nothing here that helps ex-president Trump, Matt. You made some decent points, but they had little to do directly with Donald.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:16:51 GMT -5
You say you've given up on fair elections, Matt. That means you've given up on democracy. That's a shame.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:17:56 GMT -5
Matt, you say I've been corrupted by a political party, but I'm still a true Republican. Many Republicans have been corrupted by Donald Trump, but I'm not among them.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:19:34 GMT -5
You're living a lie and denying the Supreme Court, Matt. That's a Supreme Court that is made up six Republican appointees out of nine and includes three appointees of ex-president Trump. Clearly something horrible has gone wrong with the Republican Party if a member of it disbelieves a Supreme Court that its party dominates.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:21:35 GMT -5
You have yet to show how the Supreme Court, 60 other courts, Trump's Attorney General and Justice Department, Republican election officials, Republican politicians and former members of Trump's White House is living a lie and you're not, Matt.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:34:39 GMT -5
You have yet to show why Trump couldn't have aggressively and precisely battled COVID immediately instead of waiting for it to get out of control, Matt. South Korea did what we should have done, and they're just now approaching 3000 COVID deaths, whereas we have already exceeded three-quarters of a million here in the US. South Korea acted promptly and accurately enough that they didn't have to shut down their economy as we did. Had we done the dame, we would have saved $5 trillion or more. And of course hundreds of thousands of deaths.
If you have answers, Matt, why haven't you give them to us?
Is the Supreme Court living a lie, or are you and Boly? I personally would like to see a Supreme Court that is 5-4 either way, not 6-3 Republican, but at least they're not living The Big Lie.
You don't trust elections because you are ignoring the facts. The Supreme Court bases its opinions on them, but not you.
I think you're a good guy, Matt, but you're living a lie. Don't be a Democrat. Don't be a Republican. Just follow the facts and vote for democracy.
Nearly a third of Republicans think we'll have to resort to violence, Matt. I don't believe here's not a single member of the Supreme Court who concurs. I think there are few rational people who concur. Sadly, that shows what the Republican Party has degraded into. I refuse to be degraded.
it's a shame that you've given up on democracy. And it's an even greater shame that much of the Republican Party has.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:50:00 GMT -5
I threw you an easy pitch to hit, Matt. I'm shocked that you didn't jump on it when I told you that Joe Biden stood onstage and told the crowd that he knew his wife wished she could have been there, when in fact she was standing right next to him the stage. If that doesn't show his senility, I don't know what does. Perhaps since the media favors the Democrats so heavily, you hadn't heard about it. But since I read a lot to try to find the truth, I came across it.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:52:30 GMT -5
You say you're upset the mob didn't catch up with the Democratic and Republican politicians who were in fear of their lives. Do you truly mean that, Matt? Because I think you're a far better person than that, I don't think you do.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 14:59:51 GMT -5
Maybe you're just not nearly as good a person as I think you are, Matt. You say the Democrats stole the election, and you tip your cap to them. I say that if the Democrats stole the election, lock them up.
Have you no morals?
You're flat-out wrong twice here, Matt. You say the election was stolen, but it has been proven in the Supreme Court and 60 others that it wasn't. Then you say that we should tip our caps to the Democrats for stealing it successfully. That's disgraceful.
Is there anyone here who believes if the Democrats stole the election they shouldn't be held accountable for it? People disagree on things, Matt, but I have a very hard time respecting anyone who believes that law-breakers shouldn't be held accountable. That would drop us to the level of Trump when he pardoned Bannon for stealing money from Republicans.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 7, 2021 15:19:59 GMT -5
Matt, you keep calling me a liberal. I must have been an idiot over my life to vote mostly Republican. If I were a liberal, wouldn't I register Democrat? You like to tell us what you were most of your life, and what you aren't now, but you refuse to reveal what you are currently..in Hopes that not being affiliated with any group or side will make you seem more open minded and void of being attached to any ideologies that are flawed...you know how I know you're a Liberal, Rog? Because only Liberals do that. You think it gives you complete immunity while criticizing everyone else that stands by their beliefs. The same people who do that also say they voted for their 7th grade math teacher or themselves, for the same reasons. And you say I'm living a lie. That's priceless.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 17:10:42 GMT -5
I've previously told you I'm registered an an independent, Matt. Not with the Independent Party. But I re-registered as an independent when I couldn't stand the hypocrisy of many Republicans, including myself for remaining in the party after it was hijacked by Donald Trump. I didn't feel any less independent when I was registered as a Republican; I simply came to realize many of them were hypocritical, and I was being hypocritical myself by remaining in the party.
I repeat: IF I were a liberal, wouldn't I register as a Democrat or in an even more liberal party?
I think you misunderstand. I admire people who stand by their beliefs -- as long as those beliefs are based on honesty, truth, facts and logic. There are plenty of Democrats I don't support. I do support most true Republicans, but not Trumpers.
Let's be honest, Matt. You can't answer how the Supreme Court, 60 other courts, Republican election officials, Trump's own Attorney General and Justice Department, former workers in his White House, and elected Republican officials are living a lie and you aren't.
Maybe he'll still surprise us, but thus far Joe Biden hasn't been a great president. But we don't hear his members of his own party trashing him, as we have heard from members of Trump's party.
I dislike having to say that you are living a lie, but you have been exceptionally ineffective in showing otherwise. You simply don't have honest answers to my questions. You just keep coming back with more opinions instead of facts and logic.
Probably the dumbest thing you've said in your life is that the Democrats stole the election and we should tip our caps to them. If they stole the election, I want them to pay the price. Send the offenders to jail.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 18:08:18 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 18:12:42 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 18:15:00 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 18:17:03 GMT -5
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 7, 2021 18:19:45 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 8, 2021 10:57:13 GMT -5
Why do you care about the facts only when it suits your narrative, Matt? What is my narrative, Rog? You never seem to even address my narrative, you only want to spout the mainstream media's narrative, over and over again. I've said I didn't think Trump was a good President, I merely voted for him because he was better than the alternative. If Trump was running against Hilary or Biden today, I'd vote for him again. I told you I voted for Trump because I felt he would be the better choice for me for financial reasons, and for 4 years that was true. I have stated what areas I believe Trump failed in. I've called him a narcissist, I've commented on how his tweets were often a waste of time. I literally gasped when Trump declared himself the winner on election night. I've told you I'm not a fan of Trump the person, his character is lacking that of a good President, not to mention a good person. What you fail to see here is many of these issues I had with Trump are the same problems I felt with past Presidents. Do you think Obama wasn't a narcissist? Do you think Bill Clinton was a man of great character? He stuck a cigar in an intern's vagina within the Oval Office... Or how about Hilary? Hilary is the reason Obama was called an anti-American terrorist and why people questioned his birth. She revolutionized the art of dirty politics. These were all despicable people in my opinion. George W. Bush I believe was a good guy, but he allowed his handlers to have too much power, which led to a lot of bad decisions. Jimmy Carter was/is a great person with great moral character and integrity, but he was a lousy President. Unfortunately, It takes a certain character to be President, and that character isn't always someone you want to have at the dinner table. Donald wasn't what his supporters portrayed him as. He has many character flaws that I cannot defend, but for me, being part of the working class in this country, I had to take my pick. Did I want integrity from my President, or did I want a little bit of financial freedom? I voted for my finances. Is that my fault that I felt that way, Rog? When the other party is continuously taking more and more away from my paycheck...can you blame me? I don't want to pay for someone's drug addiction, I don't want to pay for a new housing shelter in my neighborhood. I don't think I should have to pay $600 for car tabs every year. I definitely don't want to pay more for gas everytime I go to the pump. I don't think we should allow a steady stream of illegal immigrants to cross the border. I want LESS crime in my neighborhood, not cuts to our police force. These things I don't want are the things the Democrats are running on. In our state, us voters voted for a flat rate of $30 car tabs and it passed. The Democrats decided they didn't like that vote so they held it up in court until the Supreme Court of Washington deemed it unconstitutional. To the Democrats our vote only matters if it agrees with their agenda. You know what's unconstitutional? Taking away the will of the voters. You don't think they fix elections and votes? They do, I saw it first hand. Here we are, it's 2021..they just bought up a hotel down the road and have converted it into a housing shelter. Gas prices increase everytime I fill up, I just paid $500 and change for new car tabs (the roads are still littered with potholes.) I've seen two stabbings this year, prostitution is all over, and there's still homelessness everywhere despite every business has hiring signs in their window. And of course, the illegal immigration problem is getting worse. So yeah, Rog, I voted for Trump, and I'd do it again. If you have a problem with that, either make a decent candidate miraculously appear in the next election, or send me a check for my taxes, gas and car tabs. Otherwise, shut the hell up!
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Post by reedonly on Nov 8, 2021 13:45:41 GMT -5
I’d love to pay my fair share of taxes. That would cut mine in half.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 8, 2021 17:01:33 GMT -5
First of all, Matt, thanks for your detailed explanation. You told me more in this one post than you have told me in all the many months before that we've been discussing Donald. You basically voted your pocketbook, and most people do primarily that.
And indeed you did benefit financially from Trump -- until the pandemic. Perhaps even more than you benefited from Obama, although there is no question that Obama turned our economy around; until the pandemic, Trump did a nice job of continuing or even expanding that (depending on how one looks at it) -- until the pandemic. But Trump just killed us (literally in some cases) with his horrible mishandling there. Our country owes about $30 trillion. Trump promised he would balance the budget, but we owed "only" about $22 billion when he took office.
(This is an aside, but do you know who the last president to balance the budget was? I was shocked, thinking it HAD to be a Republican, but it was Bill Clinton.) Trump promised he would balance the budget, which as a conservative you know is quite important, but he failed to do so -- even before the pandemic, and even though he "saved" a trillion bucks by failing to deliver the infrastructure bill he promised.)
You did well financially during Trump's years, but you should have been doing well during Obama's years as well. I did well during both period, and so has my wife -- except that her taxes went UP after Trump's tax cut, which was the case with quite a few in the lower and middle classes. Most people of wealth did VERY well during the pandemic (and with the tax cut), but the lower class in particular suffered. I recently heard 2.5 million fewer women are working, and people of color have suffered similarly.
But all the improvements for people as a whole went out the window when Trump allowed COVID to shut down our economy. Had he not been a narcissist, that wouldn't have been necessary. Since they got right on the virus, South Korea didn't have to shut down their economy. Trump had the same opportunity beginning on January 28th when he was told by his top national security advisor that the virus was the biggest threat to national security Trump would face. Now, 21 months later, South Korea has suffered 3000 COVID deaths. We have suffered three-quarters of a million.
We fared quite poorly financially AS A COUNTRY during Trump's reign. A quarter of our country's debt accrued during that time. He failed at balancing the budget, then the pandemic turned the situation into a route for our country as a whole.
Meanwhile, our country has been torn apart, as has been the Republican Party. Our democracy has been threatened as it never has been in our country's history. Our reputation throughout the world has suffered mightily.
Trump hurt the Republican Party badly. When he took office, they controlled the presidency and both houses. By the time he left office, they had lost all three. Now that he's semi-gone, they're regaining office again. They fared quite well without him last Tuesday.
Anyway, thanks for your explanation. Now, if you would be so kind as to answer the questions I've asked -- beginning with whether it is the Supreme Court or you who are living a lie -- I'll be satisfied. It's taken a long, long time, but I thank you for beginning a true conversation.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 8, 2021 17:21:50 GMT -5
I liked your tax joke, Reed.
The sad thing is that while we've been promised no new taxes for people making less than $400 K, we're going to have to pay for COVID (which cost and is still costing FAR more than it should have) as well as the rest of our national debt. Maybe you would indeed be paying only half as much if you were paying your fair share, but most of the well off would be paying far more than they're paying now.
I'm going to sound awfully conservative here, but the national debt significantly understands our debt as a country. We owe a huge debt to infrastructure and climate control. We're behind the 8-ball with Social Security and Medicare -- right at the time the baby boomers are using those systems more and more. We've messed up by allowing illegal aliens to come into our country to fill jobs most of the people who are legally here don't want to fill. COVID and mistakes that have been made with stimulus have depleted our work force, as has the need for more affordable childcare.
We're still the greatest country in the world, but we owe more money than ever before, our workforce is more fragile than it's been in a long while, and our democracy is threatened by lies.
Not all our problems were caused by Donald Trump, but he caused more than any previous president I can think of. Nixon had to resign, but as a country, we were better off then than we were when Trump left office.
Biden inherited a horrible hand, and he hasn't yet played it as well as we would hope. But he' FAR more honest than Donald Trump, and he's working to bring the country together, not further divide it. He's working to rebuild our worldwide reputation. He's following science on climate control, not ignoring it.
I'm not sure there has been a president who inherited a worse situation than did Biden, at least not since the Depression. He needs our prayers, but at least he sees things as they really are, not as his narcissism warps his viewpoint to see.
Biden's party has some people of whom I don't approve, but he's got them fairly well under control. Trump IS the cancer in the Republican Party, where extremists now reign. There are extremists in the Democratic Party too, but they're not running their party. And perhaps as people like Matt and Boly wake up, the Republican Party will get its extremists under control as well.
Donald Trump simply felt he needed the votes of white extremists, Q-Anon, the Proud Boys, etc. to disavow them. It's little wonder Trump's approval rate is even lower than Biden's -- and Biden's will improve, while Trump's legal problems will eventually expose him even further.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 8, 2021 19:06:43 GMT -5
Biden has nobody in control, Nancy Pelosi is running the party.
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 8, 2021 20:18:46 GMT -5
As far too often is the case, I'd like to see your evidence for that. Donald Trump isn't even in office, and I think he has far more control over the Republicans than Ms. Pelosi has over the Democrats. She hasn't announced whether she'll even run again, whereas we know that Donald Trump would love nothing more than to do so. After all, even though our greatest president of all, Abraham Lincoln lost out on no fewer than SIX offices before he won the presidency, one of our worst, Donald Trump, believes in his own deluded mind that he can't lose unless the election is stolen. Every other politician I've ever heard of believes he can lose and works as hard as he can not to do so.
I believe that as bad as he was as president and despite facing two opponents who weren't exactly fierce, Trump would have been re-elected had he not shot himself in the foot with COVID. I'm surprised how few seem to realize how badly he truly screwed up, but I believe he could have overcome that had he simply shown a little compassion. IMO Trump's delusions cost the Republicans both the presidency and the Senate. The latter is virtually a no-brainer.
I haven't seen anything that indicates what you say here is correct, Matt. What are your sources?
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Post by sharksrog on Nov 8, 2021 20:21:12 GMT -5
One thing we can rest assured of is that no non-Trumper has the Republican Party in control. The party has developed something of a mental illness out of sympathy for its ex-president: It has developed a split personality. It is narcissistic on one side, and under appreciated on the other.
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Post by Islandboagie on Nov 9, 2021 8:16:07 GMT -5
I have eyes and ears, Rog. I don't need a "source." I don't need someone else's opinion to validate my own. Nancy is the speaker of the house, shes the one who passed the infrastructure bill. She's the one constantly fighting against the Progressive side of the party AKA the "Squad" to get them in line. Biden is senile, and Kamala is AWOL. They gave her ONE thing to do and that was go to the border and she couldn't even do that.
You really believe Biden is the one keeping everyone under control? He couldn't even keep his dog under control. Biden slips up all the time and says stuff like "I've been told" in press conferences and it's often when Nancy is standing behind him with that disingenuous smile on her face.
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