From an MLB Trade Rumors Chat

[sharksrog]

Bob
1:04 But do the Giants and other teams actually do things to "rebuild" players, or are they simply lucky to catch guys in a rebound season?
Mark P
1:05 Much has been written about the Giants coaching staff and their work in figuring out fixes for both the new pitchers and incumbent veteran hitters like Crawford, Belt, etc. Sure, some luck is involved, but the fact that the Giants have had so many players rebound at the same time tells me there's some skill involved.


Mark Polishuk, the chat host, also said that between the money the Giants have to spend this winter and their ability to rebuild guys, they could be interested in almost any free agent pitcher out there. It's wonderful to have the biggest pool to choose from.

If you want about the best available info on possible transactions this winter, go to MLUTradeRumors.com. If you scroll down the right-hand side, you can sort by Giants rumors or those of any other team. Soon after the completion of the World Series, Trade Rumors will have a column on the top 50 free agents, complete with predictions of how much the players will be signed for and IIRC also the teams that will sign them. If we want to stay on top of things this winter, that's a great place to check on something approaching a daily basis. Even done daily, in just a few minutes per day, one can keep up with the moves and rumors on an hour-by-hour basis.

[sharksrog]

I see that Tommy LaStella had Achilles surgery. His recovery time is expected to be four months, which when coupled with the knowledge that despite his issues, he was still able to play some, tells us that the Achilles problem, while nothing to scoff at, wasn't too bad. As a comparison, it's been just over a year since the Warrriors' Klay Thompson tore his Achilles, and he's not expected to join the Warriors' roster for at least a month or two.

[Islandboagie]

The trade rumor articles are usually wrong..why would I waste my time with that? A lot of the time it's not even a rumor, it's more of a "what if" scenario or they just make it up so they get clicks. I prefer to wait until it's actually substantiated by the organization that they have interest in a certain player. Then I know it has some validity, otherwise it's just fake news.

[klaiggeb]

Oct 31, 2021 9:47:49 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

The trade rumor articles are usually wrong..why would I waste my time with that? A lot of the time it's not even a rumor, it's more of a "what if" scenario or they just make it up so they get clicks. I prefer to wait until it's actually substantiated by the organization that they have interest in a certain player. Then I know it has some validity, otherwise it's just fake news.

Totally agree, boagie. I don't know why anyone pays attention to that crap.

But it's what sports writers (and I use the term 'writers' loosely), do. Try to create a story, or a controversy where there isn't one.

Their job is to TELL THE STORY or REPORT a stroy, not try and create one!

[sharksrog]

You guys don't know what you're talking about here. Yes, it is called "Trade Rumors," and it certainly does deal with rumors. But it also reports every transaction soon after it happens. You guys don't know what you're criticizing -- not that you let that stop you.

With regard to sportswriters, there are good ones and bad ones, but we learn much more from them now than we used to. It's been a while since I read a sportswriter who doesn't know more than we do.

Here are the most recent headlines at MLBTradeRumors.com:

Mariners to decline club option on Kyle Seager (news)

Framber Valdez, Tucker Davidson to start game 5 of World Series (news)

East Notes: Mancini, Rojas, Bendix (mostly news)

Jeremy Remy passes away (news)

Mariners tried to trade for Kris Bryant, Bryan Reynolds (news)

Padres outright five players (news)

Rogert Suarez could become free agent this winter (news)

Rangers release Drew Anderson (news)

Jason Castro tests positive for COVID-19; Garrett Stubbs added to World Series Roster (news)

Zack Greinke, Dylan Lee to start game 4 of World Series (news)


Those are the articles on MLB Trade Rumors' first page as of this moment. They're all news or mostly news. You guys are merely showing your lack of open-mindedness here.

If you opened your minds, you could learn a lot more.

[Islandboagie]

What in my post tells you I don't know what I'm talking about, Rog? I've been "researching" trade rumors and the websites that cover them just as long as you have, if not longer. I said I didn't like wasting my time with trade rumors because most trade rumors are just that..rumors. I mean it's right there in the title of the website... A lot are nothing more than click bait, not viable inside information with substantiated sources.

I don't really know if there's a good place to actually find out inside information without all the "rumors" but if I want to know about transactions that can actually be substantiated as happening, I go to the ESPN MLB wire. If I want to see the rumors first from the sources themselves I get on Twitter, where I follow most of the big name baseball analysts that break the story first, right there. If they aren't saying it, it's most likely click bait. Now, that's not to suggest the analysts don't also fall for the rumors, and want to get a click..but if there's any truth to it, they are almost always the first to break the story.

If I want to dream about the Giants signing all the big free agents without any sources backing up those claims, then I'll go to one of those "trade rumor" sites.

Thank you for the suggestion though.

[sharksrog]

Hey, Matt, I'll give you some credit here. You said that most trade rumor articles are wrong, and I misread it with capitals, as in most Trade Rumors are wrong. What you wrote is correct, obviously. If they were more than rumors, they would usually be right, and when we're talking about the future, it's almost impossible to be right a high percentage of the time, unless we're talking in generalities.

As I pointed out though, Trade Rumors is about far more than rumors. If one wants to know what is going on transactionally in the world of baseball, I know of no better source. As you say, you don't really know if there is a good place to actually find out inside information without all the rumors. I enjoy Trade Rumors' chats, since the person hosting the chat usually has better contacts than I do and thus may have a more informed opinion.

By the way, if I want to dream about the Giants' signing all the big free agents without any sources backing up those claims, I won't go to Trade Rumors. They're certainly not right anywhere near all the time, but their back up is usually better than anywhere else I can find as much information.

Are you against Trade Rumors simply because I was the one who recommended it? Clearly you don't know all that much about it. By the way, the other sports have similar content that can be indirectly accessed from MLB Trade Rumors. I have found the basketball site in particular to be interesting.

I frequently try to pass on places I have learned from. An inquiring mind would at least check them out, as I did with Boly's recommendation of "My Giants" by Russ Hodges. As I mentioned, I was a little disappointed, but there is no doubt I learned a few things from the book. I am tempted to re-read it, as it seems like there must have been something I missed. Boly brought it up in the context of the 1962 Giants not being as good as the 2016 version, and I guess I thought I would learn more that would make me believe that the 2016 team was better. Maybe my expectations were too high, as the rest of the 2016 season clearly showed the 2016 Giants weren't the better team.

The Giants did have the best record in baseball the first half of the 2016 season. But they were getting inordinate contributions from AAAA player, contributions that weren't likely to continue -- and didn't.

One free site I've mentioned here before that is still an excellent source of information is Fan Graphs. To be honest, I don't go there often enough. Baseball Savant is another. And there are some that I've forgotten about and haven't visited in years. If a fan wants to learn about players, those are two of the very best free sources.

[Islandboagie]

I frequent fan graphs and baseball savant. The site I frequent the most is obviously baseball reference.

As for Boly, I believe he said the 2016 was the best team since the '62 Giants. I may be wrong though.

For the record, I didn't agree with him. I wasn't around in the 60's but for my money the best team in my lifetime were the 2012 Giants. First and foremost we had the best manager in baseball. Every starting pitcher had at least 30 starts, and double digit wins. The bullpen was stacked. Buster had an MVP season, Melky was instrumental in the first half, Pence and Scutaro were in the second half. Pablo had a nice season, we had a strong bench, the defense was spot on and the baserunning was aggressive and smart. And of course we won the World Series by sweeping the Tigers who were a pretty good team in their own right. Not to mention Matt Cain tossed a perfect game and we dominated the All-Star game. They may not have won the most games, or put up the best numbers, but the entire roster were quality players who did their job and more. I don't think you could go 1-25 and not find a weak link anywhere..I would put the 2012 team against any team in Giants history, and almost all teams in baseball history.

[klaiggeb]

I don't think it was the 2016 team, boagie, it was the team with Michael Morse.

When everyone was healthy it was pretty darned good!

[Islandboagie]

2017 was when Michael Morse returned to the Giants. I disagree that the 2016 team was the best since the 60's, but they were at least good. The 2017 team was bad, they finished in last place. If you want to talk worst teams, then 2017 might come into play.

Maybe it's another team you're thinking of?

Regardless, while the 2016 was good, and looked better on paper, they were not the best team since the 60's. The early 2000s teams were better, 1987, 1989, 1993, 1997 were all better in my opinion. I don't even think the 2016 team was the best team in the decade. 2010 and 2012 were better, and you could make an argument for 2011 and 2014 as well. We don't think about 2011 much because they were sandwiched between two Championship seasons, but if Posey weren't injured, followed up by Freddie Sanchez's dislocated shoulder..that team could have repeated. The pitching that season was probably better than any of the Chsmpionship seasons, that's what allowed us to stay in the race so long despite missing a big chunk of our offense.

[klaiggeb]

ha! Shows what my memory is worth these days!

It was 2014. I just looked it up.

That's the year Morse came off the bench and hit that PH HR vs the Cardinals and Ishi hit that incredible HR to launch us into the WS.

Morse came back to the team in 2017, but got hurt in that collision with Samardzija.

[Islandboagie]

Now, 2014 was a good team but I still believe 2010 and 2012 were more well rounded. Without Madison Bumgarner in 2014 we definitely wouldn't have won it all. Obviously Lincecum, Posey, Cain..etc figured heavily in the success of those other teams, I don't think you can remove one of those players and guarantee they don't win, they likely might not have, but we can't guarantee it like we could with Madison in 2014.

[klaiggeb]

Nov 1, 2021 10:37:48 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Now, 2014 was a good team but I still believe 2010 and 2012 were more well rounded. Without Madison Bumgarner in 2014 we definitely wouldn't have won it all. Obviously Lincecum, Posey, Cain..etc figured heavily in the success of those other teams, I don't think you can remove one of those players and guarantee they don't win, they likely might not have, but we can't guarantee it like we could with Madison in 2014.

In retrospect, I think I agree.

Thing is, when Morse and everyone was healthy, THAT team had some gas!

[sharksrog]

The team you had mentioned as the best was the 2016 team, Boly. They did indeed post the best record in the majors the first half of the season. But in the second half, they had the 2nd-worst record, and while they made the postseason, they had an unlucky loss in game 4 with the Cubs, the eventual World Champion.

I think the 2012 team was the best of the three World Champions. They had easily the best regular season record of the three. It was amazing that they faced six elimination games that season, and even more amazing that they won all six.

It is doubtful that the Giants would have won in 2014 without Madison. He was tremendous. But I don't think we can accurately say the Giants DEFINITELY wouldn't have won. They might not even have made the postseason without Madison, but if they did, there would still have been a slight possibility they would have won it. As Brian Sabean used to say, "It's a crap shoot." That wasn't a perfect analogy, since in the playoffs, some teams have better odds than others, whereas a crap shoot doesn't favor any particular player but is simply a matter of chance. But it wasn't a horrible analogy either.

The one guy on that 2014 team who might not have gotten enough credit was Jeremy Affeldt. If he hadn't done his job as well, Madison might not have been able to make such a difference in game 7.

[sharksrog]

The Giants' starting pitching in 2011 was fabulous, as you mentioned Matt. That was Tim Linececum's final good season, and Ryan Vogelsong was a huge surprise and an exceptionally consistent starter. Obviously Matt Cain and Madison Bumgarner were also quite good. Your point that had the Giants had both Buster Posey and Marco Scutaro they might have won it all in 2011 too was a good one.

[reedonly]

Oct 31, 2021 16:27:04 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

What in my post tells you I don't know what I'm talking about, Rog? I've been "researching" trade rumors and the websites that cover them just as long as you have, if not longer. I said I didn't like wasting my time with trade rumors because most trade rumors are just that..rumors. I mean it's right there in the title of the website... A lot are nothing more than click bait, not viable inside information with substantiated sources.

I don't really know if there's a good place to actually find out inside information without all the "rumors" but if I want to know about transactions that can actually be substantiated as happening, I go to the ESPN MLB wire. If I want to see the rumors first from the sources themselves I get on Twitter, where I follow most of the big name baseball analysts that break the story first, right there. If they aren't saying it, it's most likely click bait. Now, that's not to suggest the analysts don't also fall for the rumors, and want to get a click..but if there's any truth to it, they are almost always the first to break the story.

If I want to dream about the Giants signing all the big free agents without any sources backing up those claims, then I'll go to one of those "trade rumor" sites.

Thank you for the suggestion though.

A lot of these rumors were discussed by Krukow right after the NLDS so "Trade Rumors" probably heard these items from Mike or the Knbr website. To prove it, one could simply bring up podcast on knbr done after NLDS and verify the date. Krukow podcasts are under Murph and Mac (who are suck ups who don’t add a thing). To be honest, a lot of this stuff can be Googled and anyone who needs verification about things can do so without a great deal of effort. Nobody needs to prove anything to anyone. It’s a message board not “my dog is bigger than your dog”

[sharksrog]

You make a good point, Reed. Most of what is on MLBTR isn't original reporting. They do some nice evaluating writing, and I find their Top 50 Free Agents, which should be coming out any day now, to be the best I have found, but they mostly report on what they read. They cover all teams, not just the Giants, so I read them to get league news and to get Giants news in particular. Anyone have a site they prefer? If so, I'll check it out.

[reedonly]

Free agent route might not be the best this year in places we need. Bisbee thinks we should trade rule v guys we might lose anyway for pieces we need.

[reedonly]

A big story hidden underneath Posey's retirement story is Donnie Ecker is going back to the Rangers.   That's a major hit.

[sharksrog]

I expect the Giants to lose a lot of coaches this winter. I think they have the best coaching staff in the business.

[sharksrog]

Matt, I re-read your comment that most of MLB Trade Rumors' articles are wrong; why would you read it? As I later pointed out, most of their articles are news articles, which means that most of their articles are right.

When it comes to rumors, of course by their nature most rumors are incorrect. If they had been done, they would be news, not rumors. I think teams discuss almost ALL their players with other teams at some point, and most of the moves they talk about don't come to fruition.

Trade Rumors hasn't yet come out with their Top 50 Free Agents article this year, but it will be out soon. And it will be well worth the read. Has anyone seen any other publication with better information about free agents?

Where Trade Rumors might be at its best is in predicting how much players will get in arbitration. They have an outstanding track record in that regard. And the arbitration season will be coming soon. There too the Giants have a lot of decisions to make.

[sharksrog]

Perhaps the biggest note from the loss of Ecker is that Donnie isn't just taking a raise to become the Rangers' hitting coach. He isn't going to become a first base coach or even a third base coach. Esper is becoming the Rangers' bench coach, their top job aside from manager. He's replacing a former manager in Hayward's Don Wakamatsu.

It's a shame Ron Wotus couldn't have left to become a manager. I wonder when Buster's kids get older if he'll be interesting in managing. He said he will remain with the Giants in some capacity.

[sharksrog]

Esper's title also includes offensive coordinator.

[reedonly]

MLB.com says Giants looking into Scherzer AND Verlander??? Both?

[sharksrog]

It's unlikely the Giants would sign both pitchers, but they might be interested in either on a shorter-term pact. One thing about contracts is that if you're going to make a mistake, it's almost always better for it to be on short contract than a long one.

[klaiggeb]

Nov 8, 2021 13:01:12 GMT -5 reedonly said:

MLB.com says Giants looking into Scherzer AND Verlander??? Both?

I heard that, too, Reed.

Frankly, with Max having a 'dead arm' at the end of the season, I'd be VERY skeptical.

They DIDN'T extend offers to neither DesClafani nor Wood.

I know that doesn't mean they won't be back, but still....

I'd give Max a long look... but Verlander?

For not a gazillion bucks, maybe.

[sharksrog]

We simply don't know enough about the health of either pitcher to make an informed judgment.

Since the Giants didn't extend offers to neither DeSclafani nor Wood, which one DID they extend an offer to? If they didn't extend an offer to neither, that means they extended an offer to one or the other or both.

[sharksrog]

MLBTR came out with its Top 50 Free Agents today. Here are some notes:

#2. Corey Seager 10/$305 -- All three writers feel the Dodgers will lose Seager to the Yankees.

#3. Freddie Freeman 6/$180 -- I suspect Freddie will re-sign with the Braves. Two out of three of MLBTR's writers predicted as much. But since Freddie shows no signs of slowing down, I think 6/$180, as high as it is, is a very fair price for Freddie.

#4. Kris Bryant 5/$160 -- Kris is younger and more versatile, but I don't think he's near the player Freddie is. I wouldn't re-sign Kris at this price, and it appears Mr. Zaidi is just as unlikely to do so. Two of the three writers think he'll sign with the Mariners.

5. Kevin Gausman 6/$138 -- This is longer than Mr. Zaidi would like to go, but that annual rate seems fair, and all three writers predict Kevin will indeed re-sign.

6. Marcus Semien 6/$138 -- One writer thinks the Dodgers will sign Semien, but I personally think Gausman is a better value at this price.

9. Max Scherzer 3/$120 -- All three writers think Max will re-sign with the Dodgers.

11. Marcus Stroman 5/$110 -- One writer thinks he'll sign with the Dodgers. I personally would much rather have Gausman at 6/$138.

13. Starling Marte 4/$80 -- One writer think he'll sign with the Giants, who definitely need a center fielder. Marte is intriguing, so I need to give this one a look.

16. Chris Taylor 4/$64 -- Not one of the writers thinks he will re-sign with the Dodgers or sign with the Giants. I think the price is too rich when coupled with QO compensation.

17. Raisel Iglesias 4/$56 -- One writer thinks the Dodgers will sign Iglesias, who was REALLY good last season.

19. Jon Gray 4/$56 -- One writer thinks he'll sign with the Giants. I need to research, but I'm a bit intrigued with his leaving Coors. No QO attached.

22. Anthony DeSclafani 3/$42 -- No one expects him with either the Giants or Dodgers. I think if the Giants had offered Anthony a QO, he would have taken it. Perhaps they didn't want to tie up that much money this early.

23. Justin Verlander 2/$40 -- Two out of three writers think he'll sign with the Giants. If the medical reports are good, Mr. Zaidi might indeed go two years.

25. Jorge Soler 3/$36 -- If the NL adopts the DH, I'd make way for Jorge.

26. Alex Wood 3/$30 -- None of the three writers expect the Giants to re-sign Alex, but I, er, would.

28. Kendall Graveman 3/$27 -- One writer expects him to sign with the Dodgers. Boly liked him for the Giants, but I wouldn't bite.

29. Kenley Jansen 2/$26 -- None expect the Dodgers to sign him, and I wouldn't want the Giants to do so.

32. Michael Conforto 1/$20 -- No one expects the Giants or Dodgers here, but at 1/$20 I need to do more research.

33. Clayton K. of the Dodgers 1/$20 -- No one expects either the Dodgers or Giants. That the Dodgers didn't offer him a QO doesn't sound good for the health of his arm.

34. Yusei Kikuchi 2/$20 -- No one expects the Giants or Dodgers, but he threw 95.2 mph, so I wonder if he could be a teaching candidate for the Giants.

36. Brandon Belt 1/$18.4 -- All three writers expect him to accept the QO from the Giants.

39. Alex Cobb 2/$16 -- No one expects him to sign with either the Giants or Dodgers, but I'm definitely intrigued.

41. Eddie Rosario 2/$15 -- If he could play first base or DH, I'm highly intrigued.

46. Corey Kluber 1/$12 -- One writer thinks he'll sign with the Giants, but I'm leery of whether it would be successful.

49. Jan Gomes 2/$10 -- If the Giants have any doubt about Joey Bart, I'd jump on Gomes, who is good on both sides of the ball.

50. Andrew Heaney 1/$6 -- Signed with Dodgers for 1/$8.5. Looks to me like another smart move by the Dodgers, and I wonder if they preempted the Giants.

[Islandboagie]

I hope to hell the Giants don't think Verlander is worth $20 mil a season.

And that was me that liked Kendall Graveman, not Boly.

[Islandboagie]

I like Starling Marte in center, but not for 4 years.