Not a good matchup

[klaiggeb]

Once again, "on paper" this is not a good match up for our guys.

On paper...

But let's face it; Urias has been sharp in each and every post season outting and honestly, he's DUE for a bad one.

I can't think of a better time than Thursday.

Will it happen?

Not likely, but our boys had better relax those butt cheeks and stop pinching them so tightly together so they can function.

We need Logan to be as good or better than he was in game one.

Need it desperately.

If we fall I don't want it to be to LA.

I've despised them my entire life and losing to them and their arrogant, loud mouthed fans is painful beyond imagination!

[rxmeister]

To be honest, we’re the best two teams in baseball, and although I don’t want to lose to our arch rivals, I also can accept the loss more readily than I could to a team like the Braves or Red Sox. Losing to the Dodgers might also sting the front office into making some bold aggressive moves in the off-season.

[reedonly]

Also, from the way they were talking on KNBR yesterday, they had more of a sense that 2021 is not going to be a single point in the rivalry but more of a beginning of a number of years where both teams will be going head to head.   In the past, there was more of an urgency in a given playoffs because we would never be sure if they would be back.   If the quality of the youngsters in the farm system is as good as they say we can keep the pipeline moving whe the current players cannot do it anymore. 

[reedonly]

Oct 13, 2021 9:50:35 GMT -5 klaiggeb said:

Once again, "on paper" this is not a good match up for our guys.

On paper...

But let's face it; Urias has been sharp in each and every post season outting and honestly, he's DUE for a bad one.

I can't think of a better time than Thursday.

Will it happen?

Not likely, but our boys had better relax those butt cheeks and stop pinching them so tightly together so they can function.

We need Logan to be as good or better than he was in game one.

Need it desperately.

If we fall I don't want it to be to LA.

I've despised them my entire life and losing to them and their arrogant, loud mouthed fans is painful beyond imagination!

The ump behind the plate tonight Eddings supposedly has a wide strike zone so our hitters need to take that into consideration.  Dodgers seem to be affected by lower temperatures and tonight is going to be borderline cold. 

[klaiggeb]

Oct 14, 2021 7:02:19 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

To be honest, we’re the best two teams in baseball, and although I don’t want to lose to our arch rivals, I also can accept the loss more readily than I could to a team like the Braves or Red Sox. Losing to the Dodgers might also sting the front office into making some bold aggressive moves in the off-season.

I can't, Mark, I really can't.

My hate for the Dodgers runs deep!

If we're kicked out, and on paper, we should be, I pray it's not at the hands of the Dodgers.

That's just one more bragging point for an arrogant organization and their arrogant fans.

No.

Can't let that happen.


And Zaidi and his staf, IMHO, certainly see the holes in this team. They don't need a loss to LA to solidify that.

[sharksrog]

Here's the thing.

If the Dodgers win the World Series, the Giants can make an argument they were the 2nd-best team in the tournament. If the Dodgers don't -- and of course the odds are against them, although not by as much as before last night -- they really can't. They can make an argument they were the best team in the regular season -- but not even second best in the tournament.

[reedonly]

Oct 22, 2021 20:07:45 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Here's the thing.

If the Dodgers win the World Series, the Giants can make an argument they were the 2nd-best team in the tournament. If the Dodgers don't -- and of course the odds are against them, although not by as much as before last night -- they really can't. They can make an argument they were the best team in the regular season -- but not even second best in the tournament.

Fans are counting the rings.  I don't care if the Giants were second best or 8th best. 

[Islandboagie]

Good organizations only count the rings too, the only people who care about regular season records and make believe rankings are stat geeks.

[reedonly]

Oct 22, 2021 20:52:47 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Good organizations only count the rings too, the only people who care about regular season records and make believe rankings are stat geeks.

Giants are not going to catch the Yankees in my lifetime but I would like them to make a run on the Cardinals (11) and the Athletics.  

[sharksrog]

Unlike most Giants fans, I am not a Giants fan because of where I live -- even though I have lived the past 60 years in Giants territory. I was already a Giants fan when we moved here from first Cubs territory and then Cardinals territory. As best I have been able to determine, I'm a Giants fan because my dad's dad -- who pitched in the minors for the White Sox -- didn't want to root for the Cubs as almost everyone where he lived did. I believe he chose the Giants because they were the best National League team in the early portion of his life.

My dad's first game was the Giants and Cubs at Wrigley, as was my own first major league game. My first game in organized ball was the Minneapolis Millers, then the Giants AAA team, at the Indianapolis Indians. Got to see Eddie Bressoud, among other future Giants. I remember because my dad pointed him out to me and told me he would be up with the Giants.

My guess is that the Giants' World Championships had a lot to do with my grandpa's decision to root for the Giants. Probably the fact that they were a very good regular season team too -- if nothing else because if they didn't win the entire league in a season, they didn't get to play in the World Series. Maybe the playoffs have diminished the value of the regular season. To some extent, I guess that is true.

But the best team in baseball each season isn't necessarily the one which wins the World Series. Because of TV and travel days, the baseball played in the tournament is a bit different than that played in the regular season. I happen to think that the grind of the marathon that is the regular season is usually the best test of a team. That's not to say I wouldn't build my team with one of my eyes focusing on the postseason.

But the tournament is more of a sprint. A team doesn't need five starters as it does during the regular season. While injuries and luck can have a lot to do with who wins the World Championship, those things tend to be less of a factor during the regular season (not that they can't have an effect there too). Only a third of the regular season is played after the trade deadline, so a team's record during the regular season is a better indication of its strength overall than the results of the playoffs.

The regular season gives a better picture of how good a team was over the full grind of the regular season and the postseason. The World Series winner gives a snapshot of which team had the best combination of talent, chemistry, management, coaching, injuries and luck over the relatively short time engulfed by the postseason.

For you to say that only stats geeks care about regular season records is false, Matt, and it likely shows a bias or misunderstanding on your part. Your statement that good organizations only count the rings is almost certainly false too.

I know you think a lot of Brian Sabean, Matt, and it was Brian who said the playoffs were a crapshoot. I disagree with him that they are TOTALLY a crapshoot, but do you have any idea how much skill vs. luck is involved in a crapshoot?

I guess based on what you said, I have two questions for you:

First, how do you know that good organizations count only the rings?

Second, how do you know that the only people who are about regular season records are stat geeks?

Those are somewhat rhetorical questions. There is no way you or I can know the answer to them with certainty. Then again, I know with virtual certainty that I value facts and the truth more highly than you do. Character too.

None of us here has all the answers, but what is the point of making statements such as "Good organizations only count the rings too. the only people who care about regular season records and make believe standings are stat geeks."? If you had simply stated that "good organizations count rings too," that would have been accurate. By adding the rest of your comment, you made it virtually certain that your statement was false.

Incidentally, the Rays, A's and Royals have been good organizations. You think they count only the rings? One thing I know with certainty is that they don't only count the rings. They do other things as well.

And even the most successful of organizations wear the rings as well as count them.

[rxmeister]

You can’t win the World Series if you don’t make the playoffs, and you don’t make the playoffs if you’re not a good regular season team. I’m proud of them for winning the tough NL west and winning 107 games to do it. Anything can happen in a short series, Brian Sabean nailed it there.

[reedonly]

Brian Sabean might be going to Mets?

[reedonly]

I think LA fans count rings and teams are irrelevant to the fan bases if they don’t win championships. They claim the Minneapolis Lakers one so we should be able to count NY Giants and Philadelphia Warriors also. No one remembers who comes in second but I’m an Atlanta fan this month because I hate Dodgers and Dodger fans and because of 2002.

[reedonly]

When USC won the PAC 12 football title and had to vacate it because of Reggie Bush, Cal did not become sole champ nor did they go to the Rose bowl. Astros were in cheating scandal but that does not make 2017 dodgers champs (and they didn’t want it anyway).

[sharksrog]

I wish sports were tougher on cheaters. It saddens me that apparently the 1951 Giants, one of my very favorite Giants teams, apparently was guilty of cheating.

I like the Astros, but baseball should have been far tougher on them. There is a lot of money involved in sports, and one way to punish teams would be to make cheating extremely expensive.

[reedonly]

Oct 23, 2021 14:22:12 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

I wish sports were tougher on cheaters. It saddens me that apparently the 1951 Giants, one of my very favorite Giants teams, apparently was guilty of cheating.

I like the Astros, but baseball should have been far tougher on them. There is a lot of money involved in sports, and one way to punish teams would be to make cheating extremely expensive.

During the 2017 season, there were whispers that a few other teams were also doing something.  Possibly includes Dodger and Yankees.  Maybe that's why they didn't make a big deal about it then because it might have exposed their own.

[rxmeister]

I saw so many comments about the Giants cheating with no evidence whatsoever, just a bunch of people speculating how that roster could win 107 games and why fading veterans were suddenly having career years. As for “cheating,” Rog, stealing signs is as old as the game itself. Don’t be surprised if the Brooklyn Dodgers were doing it too. As for Sabean in NY with the Mets, I’d love to see it. He would probably bring Bruce Bochy with him too. Would be a very interesting matchup between analytical teams vs the old school guys, although Sabes would have the advantage of Stevie Cohen’s money. Any good Mets prospects we want for one of our aging veterans?

[reedonly]

Oct 24, 2021 9:07:22 GMT -5 rxmeister said:

I saw so many comments about the Giants cheating with no evidence whatsoever, just a bunch of people speculating how that roster could win 107 games and why fading veterans were suddenly having career years. As for “cheating,” Rog, stealing signs is as old as the game itself. Don’t be surprised if the Brooklyn Dodgers were doing it too. As for Sabean in NY with the Mets, I’d love to see it. He would probably bring Bruce Bochy with him too. Would be a very interesting matchup between analytical teams vs the old school guys, although Sabes would have the advantage of Stevie Cohen’s money. Any good Mets prospects we want for one of our aging veterans?

Yes, I've read people on Dodger boards speculating on Logan Webb's performance enhancement in 2019 and same people are making hints about Rosario yesterday.  Of course, they ignore their own use of spider-tack and I've heard no complaints about Dodger management spending too much.  Also, the Trevor Bauer situation is ignored by their fans but could have a huge impact on the team going forward.  There's about $70 million tied up that might otherwise go to signing their own free agents.  BTW,  I've read the Seagar tweet about wanting to go back to LA but I've heard he's a huge Yankees fan and they might make a run for him because of their need for a more true SS. 

[klaiggeb]

Fans do have selective memories, and also selective perception, don't they, Reed.

Based upon the pressures so many players feel by playing in New York, for the Yankees, I have to wonder why anybody in their right mind would want to go there.

Then factor in the unbearable humidity and heat, and to me, playing anywhere on the east coast is just not worth it.

[Islandboagie]

You cannot convince me Sabean and his scouts didn't use analytics. They also used Tim Hudson and Jake Peavy as "openers" during the 2014 post-season. Sabean and Bochy revolutionized the whole loaded bullpen look that's just now starting to be noticed by the "experts." Just because they didn't write a book or make a movie about it doesn't mean both Sabean and Bochy weren't on the cutting edge of building out a roster. Bochy didn't accidentally get the best matchups in winning 3 Championships, that was all planned, he just didn't need Kai Correa sitting next to him crunching numbers with a laptop to make those calls.

[reedonly]

Oct 24, 2021 13:04:50 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

You cannot convince me Sabean and his scouts didn't use analytics. They also used Tim Hudson and Jake Peavy as "openers" during the 2014 post-season. Sabean and Bochy revolutionized the whole loaded bullpen look that's just now starting to be noticed by the "experts." Just because they didn't write a book or make a movie about it doesn't mean both Sabean and Bochy weren't on the cutting edge of building out a roster. Bochy didn't accidentally get the best matchups in winning 3 Championships, that was all planned, he just didn't need Kai Correa sitting next to him crunching numbers with a laptop to make those calls.

Sabean sabermetrics article

This is a link to a article you would probably enjoy.  It was written in 2012 after the second WS win and shows how Sabean was so slick that they used sabermetrics without actually looking like they were doing it.  To be honest, how could you not use this information when your team is the closest one to Silicon Valley?   So its basically sabermetrics and incorporate old school eye test and voila. 

[sharksrog]

Sign stealing is an accepted part of baseball. But using artificial methods as the 1951 Giants and the Astros did isn't acceptable.

I long thought Matt did a hatchet job on Carlos Beltran here, but there is no question Carlos was guilty in the Astros' scandal.

[sharksrog]

I hadn't seen any indication this year's Giants were cheating. I personally think they blended analytics and chemistry with bits of magic and luck. I give a lot of credit to Farhan and Gabe, and I'm also exceptionally impressed with the coaching staff.

[sharksrog]

I wish I knew more about the Mets' prospects, but I don't. Maybe Mordy is knowledgeable there.

[sharksrog]

An intriguing article:

www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/18795/bp-unfiltered-do-the-giants-signal-the-end-of-moneyball/

[reedonly]

Oct 24, 2021 14:34:21 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

Sign stealing is an accepted part of baseball. But using artificial methods as the 1951 Giants and the Astros did isn't acceptable.

I long thought Matt did a hatchet job on Carlos Beltran here, but there is no question Carlos was guilty in the Astros' scandal.

The Dodgers suspected the Astros were stealing signs during the 2017 World Series and weeks before.  Why not simply change the signs?  Its not as if the allegations all of a sudden popped up during the 2017 World Series.  During the regular season, the White Sox changed their signs in an effort to thwart the Astros.  Also, during the playoffs, the Yankees thought the Astros were using a blinking light signal.  Even during the World Series games, there were comments like "its almost as if they knew what was coming" when Yu Darvish was pitching.  If they had any inkling that the Astros knew what was coming, it is on them to make the adjustment. In my mind, even if the Astros were found guilty, the Dodgers pretty much let it happen. 

[sharksrog]

If I thought a team were stealing signs, at the opportune moment, I would call for a low, outside curve and then throw a high, inside fastball. The opportune moment might be with two strikes on a tough batter in a tense situation.

The penalties for cheating should be tougher IMO. Suspend those involved and hit the teams' pocketbooks big time. The pocketbook usually speaks.

[reedonly]

Oct 25, 2021 14:17:08 GMT -5 sharksrog said:

If I thought a team were stealing signs, at the opportune moment, I would call for a low, outside curve and then throw a high, inside fastball. The opportune moment might be with two strikes on a tough batter in a tense situation.

The penalties for cheating should be tougher IMO. Suspend those involved and hit the teams' pocketbooks big time. The pocketbook usually speaks.

In the 2017 WS, the Dodgers had a feeling that Darvish was somehow tipping the Astros off.  At that point, that's when they should have changed signs.  I think nowadays, everyone has a miniature spreadsheet of signs on their wrist, probably as a result of the cheating scandal.  Other teams who played the Astros had an inkling something was up and you would think that the Dodgers could have been a lot more pro-active.  As you said, changing up the pitch at a critical moment would be the least they could have done.   Or maybe they might have questioned why someone is always hitting a garbage can when the Astros are up and always right before a key hit?

[sharksrog]

Are you saying that the Astros' cheating was garbage?