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Post by Islandboagie on Oct 26, 2021 10:32:13 GMT -5
While their age might explain why they weren't the best at that time, it's not an excuse. Jon Miller is not exactly in his prime either, he's been around for a long time, but he still has good understanding of today's game. My guess is if they're not very good at announcing at an older age, they probably weren't very good in their prime either. That, and they likely feel that their ramblings of "back in my day" are more important than the game itself.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 26, 2021 10:44:37 GMT -5
While their age might explain why they weren't the best at that time, it's not an excuse. Jon Miller is not exactly in his prime either, he's been around for a long time, but he still has good understanding of today's game. My guess is if they're not very good at announcing at an older age, they probably weren't very good in their prime either. That, and they likely feel that their ramblings of "back in my day" are more important than the game itself. It was a different time. I think back then, the most important things were batting average, home runs, wins. Announcers were pretty much did not use deep thought. More descriptive of the visuals and that's it. The most they would talk about positioning was where the third baseman played. They were good for their time, more like background noise while you work on your car. They are part of my fondest childhood memories but I will admit Russ and Lon would not last half an inning today. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 26, 2021 17:10:49 GMT -5
While their age might explain why they weren't the best at that time, it's not an excuse. Jon Miller is not exactly in his prime either, he's been around for a long time, but he still has good understanding of today's game. My guess is if they're not very good at announcing at an older age, they probably weren't very good in their prime either. That, and they likely feel that their ramblings of "back in my day" are more important than the game itself. It was a different time. I think back then, the most important things were batting average, home runs, wins. Announcers were pretty much did not use deep thought. More descriptive of the visuals and that's it. The most they would talk about positioning was where the third baseman played. They were good for their time, more like background noise while you work on your car. They are part of my fondest childhood memories but I will admit Russ and Lon would not last half an inning today. |
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Post by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2021 18:23:45 GMT -5
I suspect Lon would still be good today because of his great humor. And to be honest, Russ Hodges was probably better than I gave him credit for. Haven't they both been acknowledged by the Hall of Fame? That's probably an indication they weren't too bad.
The Giants announcer who surprised me the most was Art Eckman. I didn't care for his announcing much at all, but after the final game of the season, he gave what I considered to be a highly-insightful summary of the season. I was pleasantly shocked.
Eckman went on to a long, successful career in which he has broadcast more than 20 sports. Eckman was one of my least favorite Giants announcers, but clearly he was far better than I gave him credit for.
I think much of how we evaluate announcers comes down to personal taste.
I just realized that now that Don has passed, I've probably been a Giants fan longer than anyone. I guess there are SOME advantages to being old!
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Post by reedonly on Oct 26, 2021 21:00:30 GMT -5
I'm too young to have listened to Lon Simmons or Joe Garagiola in their prime...but I heard Lon when he came back to the Giants in the late 90s and he was terrible in my opinion...as was Garagiola with the Diamondbacks and national broadcasts...it's like they had zero knowledge of today's game or what was currently happening on the field...they only wanted to ramble on about cracker jack and lemonade stands. I can appreciate that, but not when there's someone rounding third in a tie game. It's like listening to Garrison Keillor try to announce a game.
Thanks for pointing that out.another thing is that the style of announcing at the time would be to have crowd noise tell the story. again, more dead air. |
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Post by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2021 21:20:35 GMT -5
Any here get much of a chance to listen to Harry Caray? I heard him along with Joe Buck and Garagiola when all three were with the Cardinals. He was pretty good with the Cardinals, and he went on to be a very beloved announcer for the Cubs, but the bottle kind of got him.
When I was refereeing basketball, former announcer Red Rush would sometimes come with his wife to games coached by his son Casey. I always took the time to say hi to Red, about whom I knew very little except that his son said Red was in ill health.
I think announcing baseball would be a very exciting career.
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Post by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2021 21:45:23 GMT -5
Speaking of basketball, the Warriors are winning their fourth straight game to start the season, and I just saw a pole that ranked them #2 in the NBA, behind only the Milwaukee Bucks. The last I looked, the Sharks were losing, and the 49ers were just awful on Sunday, but a lot to root for with the Giants and the Warriors.
I feel sorry for those who root for the A's, but over the years they've fared pretty well too. I was once a Raiders fan too, but I just couldn't root for them after the first time they moved to LA, even though I tried.
But, really, look how blessed we have been to root for Bay Area teams. And because of Cal's Aaron Rodgers, I root for the Packers, who have done pretty well too. Because of Cal's Jahvid Best, I rooted for the Lions for a couple of years, and they didn't fare well. I have to say that Best was my favorite football player of all time, with Rodgers close behind. Frank Gifford was my original favorite. I rooted for the New York football Giants because of the New York baseball Giants.
My all-time favorite Giants player is Willie Mays, with Tim Lincecum close behind. Even though I knew him, Chris Speier was never a big favorite of mine. Got to see Jimmy Ray Hart several times when he was only 18, and one of my favorite (and most disappointing) days was on July 7, 1963, when he made his Giants debut, won the first game of the double header in extra innings, then had his shoulder blade broken by a Bob Gibson fastball in the second game. Jim Ray came back a month later to play five games before Curt Simmons, also of the Cardinals, beaned him and caused him to miss the rest of his rookie season after just seven games. That season Jimmy Ray came to the plate just 25 times, but was seriously injured twice.
He was hit by a pitch only 26 more times in his 12-year career and never again seriously injured that I can recall. He was hit only one more time by the Cardinals. Because of his glove, Matt Williams likely deserves to be called the Giants' best third baseman in SF history, but Jimmy was probably the slightly better hitter.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 27, 2021 10:08:17 GMT -5
Speaking of basketball, the Warriors are winning their fourth straight game to start the season, and I just saw a pole that ranked them #2 in the NBA, behind only the Milwaukee Bucks. The last I looked, the Sharks were losing, and the 49ers were just awful on Sunday, but a lot to root for with the Giants and the Warriors. I feel sorry for those who root for the A's, but over the years they've fared pretty well too. I was once a Raiders fan too, but I just couldn't root for them after the first time they moved to LA, even though I tried. But, really, look how blessed we have been to root for Bay Area teams. And because of Cal's Aaron Rodgers, I root for the Packers, who have done pretty well too. Because of Cal's Jahvid Best, I rooted for the Lions for a couple of years, and they didn't fare well. I have to say that Best was my favorite football player of all time, with Rodgers close behind. Frank Gifford was my original favorite. I rooted for the New York football Giants because of the New York baseball Giants. My all-time favorite Giants player is Willie Mays, with Tim Lincecum close behind. Even though I knew him, Chris Speier was never a big favorite of mine. Got to see Jimmy Ray Hart several times when he was only 18, and one of my favorite (and most disappointing) days was on July 7, 1963, when he made his Giants debut, won the first game of the double header in extra innings, then had his shoulder blade broken by a Bob Gibson fastball in the second game. Jim Ray came back a month later to play five games before Curt Simmons, also of the Cardinals, beaned him and caused him to miss the rest of his rookie season after just seven games. That season Jimmy Ray came to the plate just 25 times, but was seriously injured twice. He was hit by a pitch only 26 more times in his 12-year career and never again seriously injured that I can recall. He was hit only one more time by the Cardinals. Because of his glove, Matt Williams likely deserves to be called the Giants' best third baseman in SF history, but Jimmy was probably the slightly better hitter. Hart was hit by pitches a lot early in his career because he dug in and couldn't get out of the way. Willie Mays told him not to be a hero. Jim Ray was considered by Bill James as the 74th greatest third baseman of all time and a better hitter than 59 players ahead of him on the list which served to illustrate how poor his defense was. Alcoholism was his problem as he grew up drinking whiskey as a teenager and I think a concussion he suffered after getting hit by a pitch (Curt Simmons) exacerbated the alcoholism. Alcoholism proceeded to screw up his weight. Hal Lanier said Hart never came to the park drunk but the problems occurred after the game. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 27, 2021 10:17:58 GMT -5
Speaking of basketball, the Warriors are winning their fourth straight game to start the season, and I just saw a pole that ranked them #2 in the NBA, behind only the Milwaukee Bucks. The last I looked, the Sharks were losing, and the 49ers were just awful on Sunday, but a lot to root for with the Giants and the Warriors. I feel sorry for those who root for the A's, but over the years they've fared pretty well too. I was once a Raiders fan too, but I just couldn't root for them after the first time they moved to LA, even though I tried. But, really, look how blessed we have been to root for Bay Area teams. And because of Cal's Aaron Rodgers, I root for the Packers, who have done pretty well too. Because of Cal's Jahvid Best, I rooted for the Lions for a couple of years, and they didn't fare well. I have to say that Best was my favorite football player of all time, with Rodgers close behind. Frank Gifford was my original favorite. I rooted for the New York football Giants because of the New York baseball Giants. My all-time favorite Giants player is Willie Mays, with Tim Lincecum close behind. Even though I knew him, Chris Speier was never a big favorite of mine. Got to see Jimmy Ray Hart several times when he was only 18, and one of my favorite (and most disappointing) days was on July 7, 1963, when he made his Giants debut, won the first game of the double header in extra innings, then had his shoulder blade broken by a Bob Gibson fastball in the second game. Jim Ray came back a month later to play five games before Curt Simmons, also of the Cardinals, beaned him and caused him to miss the rest of his rookie season after just seven games. That season Jimmy Ray came to the plate just 25 times, but was seriously injured twice. He was hit by a pitch only 26 more times in his 12-year career and never again seriously injured that I can recall. He was hit only one more time by the Cardinals. Because of his glove, Matt Williams likely deserves to be called the Giants' best third baseman in SF history, but Jimmy was probably the slightly better hitter. Hart was hit by pitches a lot early in his career because he dug in and couldn't get out of the way. Willie Mays told him not to be a hero. Jim Ray was considered by Bill James as the 74th greatest third baseman of all time and a better hitter than 59 players ahead of him on the list which served to illustrate how poor his defense was. Alcoholism was his problem as he grew up drinking whiskey as a teenager and I think a concussion he suffered after getting hit by a pitch (Curt Simmons) exacerbated the alcoholism. Alcoholism proceeded to screw up his weight. Hal Lanier said Hart never came to the park drunk but the problems occurred after the game.
True our not, that's what his drinking buddy told me. |
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Post by sharksrog on Oct 27, 2021 13:52:55 GMT -5
I believe Jimmy had drinking problems his entire adult life.
A friend of mine who played for the Giants' Instructional League team said he and some teammates were drinking at the Red Dog Saloon, when the waitress brought them a pitcher of beer and pointed at the gentleman who had bought it for them. There was Jimmy Ray in the balcony, with a girl on each arm.
Jimmy Ray and Bobby Bonds were good friends, and they both had drinking problems.
You know, alcohol isn't automatically bad, but do we know of anything good that come from it? Maybe back when they used it as an anesthetic for surgery. If not for alcohol and illegal drugs, the world would be a lot better place.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 27, 2021 15:18:52 GMT -5
Jim Ray finally went to rehab in 88 but he felt that alcohol cost him about five playing years at least. Also, the way they treated injuries back then was primitive and modern rehab could have extended his career. Stoneham used threat of trade in order to motivate Hart but they couldn’t do that now.
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Post by sharksrog on Oct 27, 2021 16:38:38 GMT -5
I think a team CAN still use the threat of a trade to motivate a player, just as players can negotiate trade bonuses into contracts.
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Post by reedonly on Oct 28, 2021 8:13:58 GMT -5
I think a team CAN still use the threat of a trade to motivate a player, just as players can negotiate trade bonuses into contracts. For an owner to go that route nowadays is really rare. In Jim Ray's case, Stoneham was trying to get Hart to stop drinking. Yeah, right. Horace couldn't even get himself to stop drinking... and then proceeding to make stupid trades. |
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Post by reedonly on Oct 28, 2021 10:41:59 GMT -5
Hart was hit by pitches a lot early in his career because he dug in and couldn't get out of the way. Willie Mays told him not to be a hero. Jim Ray was considered by Bill James as the 74th greatest third baseman of all time and a better hitter than 59 players ahead of him on the list which served to illustrate how poor his defense was. Alcoholism was his problem as he grew up drinking whiskey as a teenager and I think a concussion he suffered after getting hit by a pitch (Curt Simmons) exacerbated the alcoholism. Alcoholism proceeded to screw up his weight. Hal Lanier said Hart never came to the park drunk but the problems occurred after the game.
True our not, that's what his drinking buddy told me.The problem with drinking alcohol is that there's a lot of calories. Alcohol and fat have the same caloric density. He killed a pedestrian in 1968 and probably accelerated him drinkking. It caused Jim Ray to put on a few pounds and it really affected his play badly enough that he lost his starting job to Davenport. He was really big when he went to the Yankees and it wasn't all muscle. Horace Calrke described him as big as a bull. |
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Post by klaiggeb on Oct 28, 2021 13:29:03 GMT -5
While I was stationed at Beale AFB near Marysville and Yuba city in the early 1970's, I worked with a guy who was a drinking buddy of Jim Ray's...and what HE told me was that Jimmy liked to drink WAAAAAYYYYYY TOOOO MUCH... and that he just could not get off the sauce.
True our not, that's what his drinking buddy told me. The problem with drinking alcohol is that there's a lot of calories. Alcohol and fat have the same caloric density. It caused Jim Ray to put on a few pounds and it really affected his play badly enough that he lost his starting job to Davenport. He was really big when he went to the Yankees and it wasn't all muscle.
Big years in 1964-1967... a so-so 68, and then it seemed the power was gone.
It really is a shame what talented people allow to happen to themselves.
He's not the only one.
Wasn't it Joe Charboneau who got so into coke his career never really took off?
There are tens of thousands of us who had the same dream to play MLB, but lacked the talent.
And so many of those WITH the talent, literally poop it away!
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Post by reedonly on Oct 28, 2021 15:31:22 GMT -5
The problem with drinking alcohol is that there's a lot of calories. Alcohol and fat have the same caloric density. It caused Jim Ray to put on a few pounds and it really affected his play badly enough that he lost his starting job to Davenport. He was really big when he went to the Yankees and it wasn't all muscle.
Big years in 1964-1967... a so-so 68, and then it seemed the power was gone.
It really is a shame what talented people allow to happen to themselves.
He's not the only one.
Wasn't it Joe Charboneau who got so into coke his career never really took off?
There are tens of thousands of us who had the same dream to play MLB, but lacked the talent.
And so many of those WITH the talent, literally poop it away!
Angels' Skaggs comes to mind immediately and Josh Hamilton recently. Sadly, the list is long but as Trevor Bauer demonstrated: there are newer ways to ruin a career that we haven't dreamed of. The one thing that kills a lot of active players is motor vehicle accidents in other countries like Oscar Taveres and Yordano Ventura recently. Driving in other countries is not like in the United States and is really dangerous. maybe teams need to educate players about this a bit more. |
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Post by sharksrog on Oct 29, 2021 15:26:04 GMT -5
Tomorrow Jimmy Ray would have turned 80. The two players to whom he has the closest similarity scores are playing now: Marcel Ozuna and Nick Castellanos, both pretty good hitters. This season the Braves have impressively overcome the loss of Ozuna as well as Ronald Acuna.
Hart was a tremendous hitter in the minors coming up with the Giants, batting .403 at Salem, .355 at Springfield, .337 at Fresno and .312 at Tacoma. The only level at which he stumbled slightly was when I saw him at Quincy in 1960, where he hit only .266 with a disappointing .683 OPS. My primary memory of Jimmy Ray at Quincy came in his first game, when he leaped to field a high bouncer to third, had it pop out of his glove, but then threw the runner out when he caught the bobble on the way down. Very strange-looking play. Almost circus-like or even Globe Trotter-like.
My best memory of him as a major leaguer also came with his 2 for 5 in his first game, which the Giants won in 15 innings, and then his having his shoulder blade broken by Bob Gibson in the second game of the double header.
As an aside, I don't think we've ever seen a player LITERALLY poop talent away. I, for one, have never seen a player literally poop -- and don't hope to! But, yes, sadly we've seen many players figuratively poop their talent away.
Think of the Marlins' Jose Fernandez, who had a 2.58 career ERA before his tragic fatal boat accident. In his only two full seasons, he finished 3rd and 7th in the Cy Young voting.
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