Sabean /Evans effect

[holiday613]

The mess the giants find themselves in obviously lies at the feet of the two clowns mentioned in the subject line.FZ has already taken small steps by ridding himself of Melancon and got great returns for Pomerantz. We all know the current contracts will be difficult to unload esp given the no trade clauses but it's not impossible and FZ will be up to the task. I look for Longoria , Belt and Smardzija to get traded and I also see a small outside chance for ridding ourselves of Crawford and even Posey. Farhan will find a way to clean house. Given the amazing talent we have in the minors bi think we will be a powerhouse in 2021

[klaiggeb]

I don't hold Sabean as fault as much as I do Evans.

He basically traded away the far for players on the down, down side of their careers.

And each one back fired.

And that doesn't even take into account, the Duffy for Moore, deal.

[Islandboagie]

Signing Samardjiza, Cueto and Melancon is where we went wrong. Those were all done by Evans. It's not the way I would have done it, so I don't think Evans was a good GM, but at the same time those guys should have performed better.

Buster, Crawford, Cain, Lincecum..etc earned their money. All of them deserved a big payday from the Giants because their play on the field gave the Giants organization a big payday through the Championship years. You can disagree with that all you want, but that's how you build a fan base and make money.

The moneyball strategy plays great in Hollywood, but it doesn't win you Championships.

[klaiggeb]

Oct 13, 2019 17:53:29 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Signing Samardjiza, Cueto and Melancon is where we went wrong. Those were all done by Evans. It's not the way I would have done it, so I don't think Evans was a good GM, but at the same time those guys should have performed better.

Buster, Crawford, Cain, Lincecum..etc earned their money. All of them deserved a big payday from the Giants because their play on the field gave the Giants organization a big payday through the Championship years. You can disagree with that all you want, but that's how you build a fan base and make money.

The moneyball strategy plays great in Hollywood, but it doesn't win you Championships.

Loved your "Money Ball," comment, boagie! Perfect! You nailed it!

[sfgdood]

Sabean has 3 rings...Fargeek 0. You can assign blame to Brian if you want but you also need to give him full credit for the success Fargeek has yet to attain. Thus far im not impressed. He let Bumgarner walk for zip in return.

[rxmeister]

Isn’t Sabean the guy who signed Michael Tucker intentionally early so he wouldn’t have a first round pick? Imagine if he had stuck to this policy. How many championships would he have won if he forfeited the right to draft Posey, Lincecum and Bumgarner in favor of signing third rate free agents? Isn’t Sabean the one who traded Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for A.J. Pierzynski? Wheeler for Beltran? I mean Sabean just traded prospects as if they were nothing. Aren’t Sabean and Evans responsible for bidding against themselves to sign these players we have now that are past their primes and liberally tossing around no trade clauses so we can’t get rid of them? Randy rails about Zaidi not trading Bum, but did it occur to him that Bum’s no trade clause to virtually every contender was a factor here? Yes, Sabean won three world championships and made several nice moves but he made many bad ones too, and based on most of them I’d judge him as more lucky than good. Evans was no worse than Sabean, but lacked his luck. Now let’s get to Boagie and his analysis of contracts. Jeff Samardzija. Has he really been that bad? He had one awful season and one injury plagued season, but other than that he’s been a reliable pitcher they can give the ball to every fifth day and he battles. Johnny Cueto. Has he really been that bad? Was one of the best pitchers in baseball in year one of his deal, an awful year two, and then was on his way to year one numbers when he needed TJ surgery. If you want to make the case that ALL long term deals to pitchers are bad because of the injury risk factor you have a fair point, but otherwise they’re not bad deals. Melancon was also hurt almost his entire Giants career, but his deal was bad for a different reason. He was paid like an elite closer where he merely was a reliable one. And as Jansen, Chapman and Diaz showed this year, even elite closers are unreliable and not worth that kind of investment.
As for Mordy, I agree with most of his post, but I think Zaidi has an impossible task the next two seasons as he waits for these big contracts to expire. Unless George Steinbrenner rises from his grave and purchases the Giants, I don’t think Baer and the other owners will view these contracts as sunk costs and allow Zaidi to sign elite free agents. I think they’ll struggle for the next two years as they try to evaluate players who will be here after the purge. All the big names will be gone, and Zaidi will have a huge amount of cash to go after elite free agents to put around Bart and the rest in 2021. And because, like Mordy, I have complete faith in Zaidi, I think we’ll be championship contenders again in two years, but the next two could very well be ugly.

,

[Islandboagie]

Mark- Now let’s get to Boagie and his analysis of contracts. Jeff Samardzija. Has he really been that bad? He had one awful season and one injury plagued season, but other than that he’s been a reliable pitcher they can give the ball to every fifth day and he battles. Johnny Cueto. Has he really been that bad? Was one of the best pitchers in baseball in year one of his deal, an awful year two, and then was on his way to year one numbers when he needed TJ surgery. If you want to make the case that ALL long term deals to pitchers are bad because of the injury risk factor you have a fair point, but otherwise they’re not bad deals. Melancon was also hurt almost his entire Giants career, but his deal was bad for a different reason. He was paid like an elite closer where he merely was a reliable one.

Boagie- Jeff Samardjiza's contract has been a bad one. He was terrible two seasons and decent two seasons, Yet he has been getting paid like a frontline starter (20 mil a season, except for his first season when he got paid about 10 mil.) That's bad.

Cueto has been good when hes been healthy, but he hasn't been healthy for two seasons. I like Cueto when he's healthy, but overall it's been a bad deal for us because of the DL stints. I like Cueto, and I don't blame him, but based on the multitude of injuries it hasn't been good for us.

When you say Melancon had been reliable, I can see you're not ready to have an honest conversation. Nobody should have to stretch the truth to this degree if they have a good argument. Melancon had been absolutely terrible up until this season. This season he was used mainly as mop up until slowly eased back into more crucial roles, but he was decent. Regardless, if he's getting paid as an elite closer and he's not, it's a bad deal.

I said these three contracts have been a downfall for us because we couldn't get out of them until this season when Zaidi finally got us out of the Melancon contract, and I was the first and most adamant to give him credit for that. But I don't see how I was incorrect in saying that these three contracts were a big reason for our downfall over these last few years.

[Islandboagie]

Mark- Isn’t Sabean the guy who signed Michael Tucker intentionally early so he wouldn’t have a first round pick? Imagine if he had stuck to this policy. How many championships would he have won if he forfeited the right to draft Posey, Lincecum and Bumgarner in favor of signing third rate free agents? Isn’t Sabean the one who traded Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for A.J. Pierzynski? Wheeler for Beltran? I mean Sabean just traded prospects as if they were nothing.

Boagie- Every GM makes mistakes and Sabean is not an exception. But that doesn't take away the fact that we won 3 Championships under Sabean, and had a legitimate chance to win a few more under Baker and Alou. Sabean put the Giants in a position to win almost every season. Unfortunately Baker couldn't run a pitching staff and Alou was senile. It took getting Bochy to allow Sabean's vision to become reality. Sabean was a fantastic GM, thinking he was anything less than that is ignorant.

[donk33]

Oct 18, 2019 13:35:56 GMT -5 Islandboagie said:

Mark- Isn’t Sabean the guy who signed Michael Tucker intentionally early so he wouldn’t have a first round pick? Imagine if he had stuck to this policy. How many championships would he have won if he forfeited the right to draft Posey, Lincecum and Bumgarner in favor of signing third rate free agents? Isn’t Sabean the one who traded Nathan, Liriano and Bonser for A.J. Pierzynski? Wheeler for Beltran? I mean Sabean just traded prospects as if they were nothing.

Boagie- Every GM makes mistakes and Sabean is not an exception. But that doesn't take away the fact that we won 3 Championships under Sabean, and had a legitimate chance to win a few more under Baker and Alou. Sabean put the Giants in a position to win almost every season. Unfortunately Baker couldn't run a pitching staff and Alou was senile. It took getting Bochy to allow Sabean's vision to become reality. Sabean was a fantastic GM, thinking he was anything less than that is ignorant.

dk..I'm really confused...how many bad years did Sabean have before he won a ring??  is it a great accomplishment to win three rings  and yet in 2 of those years he had the fourth best team in the league? Was it a great accomplishment when your drafting record was so bad that you had to drag a couple of retired scouts back to work and they drafted the guys that won the rings for the Giants??? 

As far as trading away prospects...who let Reynolds go for a guy who completely lost it and couldn't really hit or play CF any more...and this was known throughout baseball? Other guys who were factors in this years pennant races were utility guys...Culberson and Adrianza..….Ad... was a big cog off the bench for the Twins as he played all positions except catcher, although his pitching wasn't that great... Culberson was great for Atlanta before he was hurt....any one remember when I used to joke at that first round pick who had more errors than hits in his first season? I don't know about anyone else but I think a GM who can put together a team that wins as many games during the regular season does a better job than a guy who wins a ring with the 5th best team in the league.... and lets not forget;, the new guy is the President of baseball and not the GM...he supposed to hire a new GM and field manager...so I don't think he is really going to making out too many lineup cards for the new GM and Mgr.... and don't sweat the big stuff...you can't pick youngsters using stats.have to let several layers of scouts look over the guys in the draft pool before you risk big money on signing some kid that sent the little league on fire..  we shouldn't have Sabean drafting atheletes, maybe they will let the scouts help draft players.the rest of baseball will have to find someone replacing Sabean ad drafting guys in the early rounds that most teams had in their later rounds. .

[Islandboagie]

Sorry to burst your bubble, Don, but trading Culberson for Scutaro was considered one of the best trades of 2012 and probably one of the best late season additions in Giants history. Sabean would make that trade again and again and again, and nobody would disagree, except maybe you.

[rxmeister]

I don’t think you’re understanding what I said about Melancon, Boagie, and I suggest you read it again. And then after you misunderstand an obvious thing you have the nerve to talk about having an honest conversation! When I mentioned that Melancon was paid like an elite closer, I was obviously referring to when he signed his contract. Was he not a reliable reliever with Pittsburgh? Of course he was a disaster with the Giants and that’s why I made the point about you making a fair point about giving long term deals to pitchers because so many of them break down. I totally agreed that Melancon was a bad contract because he was overpaid even if he had pitched the same way he pitched in Pittsburgh, let alone the way he actually pitched. I did really like him as a person though, loved the story about how his kids chanted “Tony, Tony, Tony,” when the Giants brought in his former Pittsburgh set up man, Tony Watson, and I was so happy for him in Atlanta when after blowing game one against St Louis he came back to save games two and three. And what I love most is that our great team President managed to completely unload his contract plus received decent prospects in a deal with Atlanta, completely getting the Giants out from Evans’ mistake.

[rxmeister]

By the way, it’s the height of arrogance to call a different opinion than yours, “ignorant.” I can make the case that a good GM would have hired better managers than Baker and Felipe and won championships in 2002 and 2003 and would have five rings instead of three. Would I be right? We’ll never know, but it’s better to be lucky than good and Brian Sabean and his behind the times line of thinking when it came to how to deal with prospects and how to construct a team (OBP not important, sign a bunch of free swingers) was more lucky than good.

[sfgdood]

I don't think Boagie's statement was arrogant. He acknowledged Sabean was not infallible. But the fact remains any gm with 3 rings will be in Cooperstown without question. You can pick nits or just give him his due

[rxmeister]

“Sabean was a fantastic GM, thinking he was anything less than that is ignorant.”

Of course it’s arrogant to think anyone who has a different opinion than yours is being ignorant. If you don’t get that, maybe Rog was on to something.

[Islandboagie]

Aren't you a sabermetrics guy, Mark? The website SABR listed Sabean as the 14th best GM in the History of MLB. Being considered 14th best at your job in history is pretty nice praise. Of course, the people at SABR probably didn't focus on just the negatives.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a high percentage of Giants fans are wrong, maybe the people at SABR are wrong, maybe Bochy was wrong in crediting alot of his success to Sabean. Maybe all of us are wrong, and you and Mordy are right.

[rxmeister]

I don’t hate Sabean, but I do hate the notion that three world championships gives you a lifetime pass from criticism. The Giants are where they are now because of Sabean and Evans and they’re stuck there for another two seasons. So that’s 2021, seven years removed from the last world championship. And other GM’s who don’t have three rings are better than them because although they don’t win the ultimate prize they keep the team competitive every single year. The GM doesn’t hit or pitch you can’t blindly award him credit for what the players accomplish. Let me ask you a question now. You think Bruce Bochy is an all time great manager, right? How do you explain then his losing record as a manager for the Giants? How does a great manager lose more games than he wins? Has to be the players, right? And who gave him those players? Once again, rings don’t define greatness. By that logic Cody Ross was a better player than Mike Trout!

[Islandboagie]

Mark- I don’t hate Sabean, but I do hate the notion that three world championships gives you a lifetime pass from criticism.

Boagie- I never said Sabean gets a lifetime pass from criticism. In fact, I've acknowledged a number of bad moves made by him. I have probably been the most vocal on disagreeing with some of those moves. Who was more against the Beltran trade than I? I was probably the least happy about the Pierzynski trade and I disagreed with the strategy of continuing to surround Bonds with washed up veterans year after year. I was against those moves when they actually happened when a number of people here thought they were good moves. Sabean had his flaws, and I have been critical of them. However, with every bad move, he's had a handful of good moves. I can fully admit he's not perfect, but when Mordy calls Sabean a "clown" I'm going to defend someone who is clearly not a clown. And this notion that Sabean is bad at seeing young talent does not reflect his career accomplishments.

As the scouting director with the Yankees he oversaw the drafting of Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettite and JT Snow. He helped create the Yankee Dynasty in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

We know what did with the Giants, so I won't go into that, but overall with the Yankees and Giants you can't argue he definitely had his hand in drafting multiple Hall of Famers, and perhaps a few possible Hall of Famers in the future. He also had a good record of trading and signing free agents despite the few bad ones we tend to fixate on.

[rxmeister]

Not just Sabean gets credit for the Giants success at drafting right before the glory years. His scouts get a lot of credit, and you actually have to give ownership some credit because a couple of those players, especially Buster, dropped to them because teams ahead of the Giants were scared off by the price tag, and the Giants owners never have Sabean a problem with that. But to once again be a contrarian, why did the Giants pick so high those years? It was because Sabean put terrible teams on the field those years and he wasn’t even tanking! But you made a very fair objective post there Boagie, and went a long way from calling an opposite opinion of yours ignorant, and I agree with most of it. Sabean was certainly not a clown and the one thing I always give him credit for was his work at the deadline when he always correctly identified exactly what the team needed and went out and got it. Examples of course would be Javier Lopez and Cody Ross. Part of the reason for his success was his boldness and his disdain for them actually paid off there because while other GM’s prospect hugged he wasn’t afraid to move his top minor leaguers for veteran help. This is the main reason the farm system was arguably the worst in the major leagues while he was here, but when he needed someone to just plug a gap, he always seemed to find one, like a Panik or Duffy. I liked Sabes but I think like Bochy the game passed him by a bit and I have high hopes for Zaidi and whoever he eventually chooses to manage.

[Islandboagie]

You make a lot of good points, Mark. But you do seem to blame Sabean a lot for the bad years while giving credit to everyone else during the good years. I think it's only fair to give credit to Sabean for the good years an equal amount for criticism he recieves for the bad years. In fact, The bad years were often preceded by years in which the Giants had a better roster than the result indicated. A lot of the post-season runs left a bad taste in our mouths because on paper they shouldn't have lost the World Series to the Angels, they shouldn't have lost in the NLDS to the Marlins or Mets, and all the years in between they probably should have made the playoffs. You could make the argument that between 1997 and 2003 we were consistently the best team on paper in the NL West, maybe with a few exceptions of course. We should have dominated the NL West during that period, but we didn't. I firmly believe if we had Bochy during that period we would have. But because our managers and players kept failing us during that time, Sabean had to rinse and repeat a number of times, most notably after 2002. But let's also not forget his first year at the helm he turned over a bad 1996 team into a division winner in 1997 with a ton of additions a d subtractions. The worst period of time for the Giants while Sabean was the GM was probably 2004-2008, but a lot of that was a rebuilding period. 2007 and 2008 were bad seasons, but it was still entertaining to watch the kids.