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Post by klaiggeb on May 17, 2019 9:49:25 GMT -5
These are some excerpts from Alex Pavlovic's article today:
1-SAN FRANCISCO -- When Derek Holland spoke up Saturday night and said he didn't know what the front office was doing, he wasn't just speaking for himself. There has been confusion this season, more than in past ones, from the players, coaches, support staff and fans.
2-This is not what the #ForeverGiant organization has gotten used to. The roster moves have come quickly, young players are cut loose after a dozen at-bats and veterans are gone in a month. The process has led to some grumbling, and perhaps one day Farhan Zaidi will look back on this season and feel he wasn't clear enough from the start about what the goals would be.
3-But in Denver last week, after Yangervis Solarte and Pat Venditte were let go, Zaidi did very clearly lay out his plan.
"A key for us, I think, is going to be adaptability and looking at different guys. We're trying to compete, but we're also trying to find guys who could be keepers for this organization, who are going to be here for a few years," he said. "We're kind of trying to walk that balance and part of it is giving guys opportunities but sometimes having to pull the plug before you get what really amounts to an appropriate sample look.
Yep! that explains it.
Right.
And once again, I'm Batman.
Does this guy think he has a future in politics?
Sounds like it to me, because what he said amounted to nothing more than we hear out of the mouth of almost every politician on the planet.
Avoid the meat of the question, and throw down a smoke screen.
If that's laying out "the Plan," I'm more confused than ever.
Nope.
Still not impressed with this guy, and I can't wait until he's gone.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 17, 2019 12:32:52 GMT -5
I don't think you read what Alex intended you to read when he wrote what he wrote. It appears to me that he went out of his way to objectively lay out a set of facts, but that you came away from it with an interpretation that agreed with what you believed going in, rather they trying to learn from what he wrote.
I mentioned in another post that it seemed to me that things had changed around the beginning of May. Kind of like the Giants had a meeting and decided they needed to go with younger guys. Possibly indicating that when Farhan was hired, he and upper ownership agreed to re-evaluate the situation every so often, given that they were committed to trying to compete and he likely believed that was odds-against.
I'm speculating about any agreeement between Farhan and ownership, but given what I believe Farhan saw and that he was still offered and accepted the GM job, seems reasonable. As to April showers bringing May flowering youth, I think that appears rather clear.
For your own mental health, Boly, why not stop being so judgmental and see what happens? You can't wait until Farhan is gone, but with him having a five-year contract, you may be miserable for a long time. Personally, I think we'll see some light at the end of the tunnel within a year, some results within two and some success within three. I may be a little optimistic in that regard -- it took the Astros 7 plus years from their first high draft choice -- but I think you'll finally realize you should have had more faith.
But whether I'm right or wrong, why do you keep emphasizing the negative when a more positive approach would seemingly be healthier?
The baseball world has far more faith in Farhan than we have here. That seems quite sad.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 17, 2019 12:43:44 GMT -5
By the way, one important issue Farhan brought up is that he has a sense of urgency. That is what he seemed to be saying when he said "part of it is giving guys opportunities but sometimes having to pull the plug before you get what really amounts to an appropriate sample look." One thing Farhan has shown is that he isn't afraid to admit he made a mistake, and he's quick to strike when he sees what he feels is a better opportunity, even if he would have liked more time to see if the first opportunity was going to work out. You think he's running around like a chicken with his head cut off, but I think he simply sees more deeply into a situation than we can. He has information we don't have. And he certainly doesn't appear to be frozen into inaction. To me, it's kind of like brainstorming. If a group comes up with 100 ideas and 99 of them are foolish, they're still ahead because of the one good idea. Farhan has taken very low risk chances and while most have been failures, several have paid nice dividends -- especially in building pitching staff depth, which should pay off nicely between now and the trade deadline. I think you're against Farhan because you're against sabermetrics. You're looking for things to go wrong, when you should be looking for things to go right or simply taking an objective and pro-active look at what is happening. If we look objectively at Farhan, it's hard to see anything brilliant he's done. But while we have strong evidence that he is indeed a brilliant man, I think most of his success has come from hard work and a willingness to take prudent risks. We can't really find anything significant to criticize him for, so we're criticizing him for being deceptive? It may be that we simply aren't being objective in our interpretations. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5302/confusion?page=1#ixzz5oCjr90WR
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on May 17, 2019 13:53:00 GMT -5
For your own mental health, Boly, why not stop being so judgmental and see what happens? You can't wait until Farhan is gone, but with him having a five-year contract, you may be miserable for a long time. Personally, I think we'll see some light at the end of the tunnel within a year, some results within two and some success within three. I may be a little optimistic in that regard -- it took the Astros 7 plus years from their first high draft choice -- but I think you'll finally realize you should have had more faith.
Dood - First of all who the hell do you think you are telling us what to judge or not to judge? This is a forum for opinions...judging is what we do here. We don't tell you to stop disagreeing with us do we?
We didn't like Fargeek to begin with because of his non-baseball background. We further didn't like his moves, which very often he himself soured on very quickly. We detest his meddling in the decisions of the manager. The clubhouse seems to us to be confused as to what their roles are and who makes what decisions regarding the team...we don't like that either. Surely you can understand our skepticism with all this going on. Hey if he turns things around like you say he will, I'll give him credit. I just see the team going in the wrong direction.
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Post by klaiggeb on May 17, 2019 14:48:43 GMT -5
Roger, I understood what Alex wrote.
The clubhouse is in confusion, as I stated in another thread that it likely was.
But Roger, Randy summed it up perfectly when he said: "We didn't like Fargeek to begin with because of his non-baseball background. We further didn't like his moves, which very often he himself soured on very quickly. We detest his meddling in the decisions of the manager. The clubhouse seems to us to be confused as to what their roles are and who makes what decisions regarding the team...we don't like that either. Surely you can understand our skepticism with all this going on. Hey if he turns things around like you say he will, I'll give him credit. I just see the team going in the wrong direction."
That was and continues be my opinion. He turns it around, I'll give him credit, but even you have to admit that a C-/D+ grade to this point is not good.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 17, 2019 15:10:51 GMT -5
We didn't like Fargeek to begin with because of his non-baseball background. Rog -- That is simply showing your prejudice. I don't care if he was a traffic cop if he can turn the team around. But in reality he his well respected in baseball circles. People who know more about it than you and I think he's good. Unless I have good facts, who am I to argue with them? I realize that people here believe I think I know everything. In reality, there are probably few here who more realize how many things there are that they DON'T know than I. It isn't I that am knowledgeable; it is the facts; it is the analysis; it is the logic. Few here are more skeptical than Mordy. Yet Mordy is taking a realistic position of, this guy is considered by the industry to be good; we should give him time to do his job -- THEN form our opinion. Hey, I don't know if Farhan is going to succeed or not. But most think he has strong capabilities, and his track record is good at what he's done in baseball over his career. I figure his odds are good. Notice that our criticism of him hasn't been that he made this horrible move that crippled the franchise, but rather that he isn't a baseball man. For not being a baseball man (if that is indeed the case), he's certainly impressed a lot of good baseball men. It's really easy to criticize, but I notice that no one has said, "This is what he did wrong, and here is what he should have done." Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5302/confusion#ixzz5oDJLTkIM
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on May 17, 2019 15:41:37 GMT -5
We didn't like Fargeek to begin with because of his non-baseball background.
Rog -- That is simply showing your prejudice. I don't care if he was a traffic cop if he can turn the team around.
Dood - I wouldn't want a traffic cop either. Boly and I have said all along that if he succeeds we'll be happy...but thus far things dont look promising. I mean if you had stock in a Fortune 500 company, wouldn't you consider selling if the new CEO was someone with little experience in the industry?
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Post by holiday613 on May 17, 2019 18:13:22 GMT -5
Now I understand why the Giants suck...It must be because there is a sense of confusion...Ya Right.....
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Post by klaiggeb on May 17, 2019 19:49:07 GMT -5
Seriously, Mordy, I think that mental unrest has something, who knows how much, to do with it.
I'm not saying it's THE reason, I'm saying it is "a" reason.
But all that said, there is ZERO excuse for what's happened to our starters.
Zero.
Man up, boys and girls, and do you jobs out there.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 18, 2019 0:44:44 GMT -5
I mean if you had stock in a Fortune 500 company, wouldn't you consider selling if the new CEO was someone with little experience in the industry? Rog -- That would depend on the new CEO himelf, and on how closely his experience elsewhere applied. But in Farhan's case, he's had a decade of what is viewed in the industry as highly successful industry experience. Randy, go look at what was written about Farhan when he was signed. Look at what has been written about him since. I've mentioned this before, but my son lives in LA. When I asked him what the Dodger fans down there thought of the Giants signing Farhan, he said they weren't very happy about it. That told me quite a bit. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5302/confusion#ixzz5oFh86JHZ
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Post by klaiggeb on May 18, 2019 9:52:46 GMT -5
Roger, what was written about Farhan when he was signed is moot.
Absolutely and completely moot!
What has he done for us?
Has he made us better?
Have his moves moved this club in a solid direction for the future?
I would argue, no, or at best, marginally. And that is a barely marginally at that.
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Confusion
May 18, 2019 10:45:09 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on May 18, 2019 10:45:09 GMT -5
While I agree Zaidi hasn't done much to make us better, he also hasn't done anything to make us worse. Remember Boly, he signed a 5 year deal, not a 5 month deal. He still has plenty of time to turn it around.
I think your frustration stems from Rog propping Zaidi up on a pedestal, more so than the job Zaidi has done thus far. It's annoying, I agree, but don't be as unrealistic about the situation as Rog has already taken this. You dont need to counterbalance Rog's unrealistic admiration for Zaidi by painting him as the worst GM in history. Because he's not.
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on May 18, 2019 11:49:33 GMT -5
Boly and I have both often said if the team has success, we will give Fargeek his credit...not before. So far all he has done is throw spaghetti against the wall to see if anything sticks.
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Post by klaiggeb on May 18, 2019 11:52:47 GMT -5
Your point is a good one, boagie, and I certainly and 100% agree with your opening statement: "he also hasn't done anything to make us worse"
I know Roger personally, and he is a nice guy.
Make no mistake about that.
But you are right, his constant promoting of Farhan, who I've graded as a C-/D+ has exasperated me.
I know he signed a 5 year contract, and we are likely stuck with him for at least 3.
Yes, I'd like him gone for many reasons, some of which I choose to keep to myself for the time being.
If you would like to discuss them off line, email me and I'm fine with that.
I'm giving him 2 years to point this ship in the right direction; this year plus one more, and that's it.
If we aren't moving forward by the end of the 2020 season, I'm personally done with giving him any more chances.
We don't have to make the play offs, just show me that we're moving in the right direction.
That's not too much to ask.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 18, 2019 20:24:49 GMT -5
Rog propping Zaidi up on a pedestal
Rog -- I have given my viewpoint of what Farhan has been trying to do and have pointed to his fine reputation within the industry. I've said he hasn't made any brilliant moves, and that his success may have been as much in not making costly mistakes as much as in improving the team. If that if placing him on a pedestal, at least I certainly won't have much problem stepping up on it if I need to.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 18, 2019 20:26:26 GMT -5
Oh, and I said that Boly's C+/D- grade was pretty close. I'm thinking I may not even have to step UP to get on that pedestal.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 18, 2019 20:29:59 GMT -5
We don't have to make the play offs, just show me that we're moving in the right direction. That's not too much to ask. Rog -- There we agree, Boly, although it's possible our definition of moving in the right direction could be a little different. The progress I will be looking for is: . A good draft in 2019 and 2020. . Better development. . A continuation of the trend in international signings. . Nice trades this summer. . Getting rid of more dead wood. . A good free agent signing would be nice, but I think that will be more important in future winters than in this upcoming one. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5302/confusion?page=1#ixzz5oKVKgnpL
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rog
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Post by rog on May 18, 2019 20:53:38 GMT -5
Oh, and Bruce Bochy's replacement will be quite important.
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Post by klaiggeb on May 19, 2019 9:36:51 GMT -5
I think a lot about who will replace Boch and I'm betting they go out of the organization to get him.
Meaning Wotus won't be more than a cursory consideration.
Not sure if I'd even want Wotus, but my guess is that Farhan will be bringing in a big time sabermetrics guy.
Surprise.
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on May 19, 2019 13:18:54 GMT -5
it will be a young inexperienced stats lover that Fargeek can control
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Post by klaiggeb on May 19, 2019 14:45:46 GMT -5
Yep, that was what I was alluding to, Randy.
You nailed it!
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rog
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Post by rog on May 19, 2019 18:38:25 GMT -5
it will be a young inexperienced stats lover that Fargeek can control Rog -- Talk about a guess with virtually nothing behind it. If David Bell were still in the organization, I think he might be the man, but the Reds already got him. Hensley Meulens appears to have been the inside guy who was groomed for the job, so he's a possibility. If were going to look for a model, it would probably be the Dodgers, who have Dave Roberts. All in all, I would say we have little to go on. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/5302/confusion#ixzz5oPtY1gLd
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Post by klaiggeb on May 20, 2019 9:07:32 GMT -5
it will be a young inexperienced stats lover that Fargeek can control
Rog -- Talk about a guess with virtually nothing behind it.
I couldn't disagree more, roger.
Yes, it's a guess, but it's an educated guess based upon a number of observed behaviors.
1-The way the game is moving. See Dave Roberts, LA Dodgers
2-Farhan is a stats geek
3-GMs are dictating more and more of what goes on, on the field.
4-Bochy is NOT Farhan's guy
5-Farhan is a meddler on the field.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 21, 2019 2:13:40 GMT -5
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rog
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Post by rog on May 21, 2019 2:14:40 GMT -5
By the way, while I didn't agree with every point Boly made, Randy, do you see how his post at least showed he had thought more than five seconds before posting it?
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on May 21, 2019 2:45:51 GMT -5
I can see that you're a pompous arrogant jackass. What I don't get is why Boly doesnt see it
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rog
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Post by rog on May 21, 2019 3:17:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry to come across that way, Randy, but take a look at the posts here. Everyone else here has clearly put at least some thought into most of their posts. You seem to simply be stream of consciousness with lots of put downs and strong statements supported by very little. Your ratio of strong statements to support for those strong statements is huge.
Think about how ridiculous it was for you to give up on the Giants, only to see them not only snap back, but go on to win the World Series.
I just thought of something. You say that all I understand is numbers, that I don't understand inside baseball. Yet one of and probably the primary reason I turned out to be right about Gary Brown and you didn't is that I read a scouting report on him that pointed out some of his weaknesses. It's true that I didn't like his peripherals, but I've looked back on them, and they weren't bad at all when he won the Cal League MVP. But I couldn't get that scouting report out of my head.
You're the guy who supposedly knows inside baseball -- which JC pitcher doesn't? -- but you hadn't bothered to read the scouting report, and you simply ignored it when it was mentioned to you. You basically said that you knew more than the scout, even though he had enough scouting knowledge to be a Giants scout, and you clearly don't.
Stop being so critical of everything and try to learn. There is SO much out there all the way from scouting reports to analytics to understanding how to work the salary cap.
If you'll try to learn some things and keep an open mind, I'll try to be less of a pompous, arrogant jackass. How does that sound for a trade?
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rog
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Post by rog on May 21, 2019 3:30:17 GMT -5
Anyone want to take "credit" for this post:
If someone can show me the upside for us on this trade, OTHER THAN getting at least something for Nunez, I'd be glad to hear it.
We got even less in this deal than when we traded Mays to the Mets for a nobody who never went anywhere.
Bottom line for me is that we got zip. Zilch. Nada.
No.
I take the back.
We got screwed.
We got hosed.
We got picked clean.
We got an enema
Posts like this make me question our open-mindedness.
Perhaps someone wants to take credit for this one in contrast:
Kid was nervous, but no question, he's got really good stuff ... What I saw from Anderson was much better poise and command than I've seen from Beede
It's not important, by the way, who did the posting. But it is perhaps important to note that it was the same person -- one reacting to the frustration of getting what he thought was very little for Eduardo, and the other after seeing one of the two pitchers the Giants did receive. The good news is that while it took a long while, it appears the mind opened regarding the trade.
So the final analysis is positive. Hopefully something was learned from the process.
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on May 21, 2019 8:11:55 GMT -5
I get that you hate me and I'm fine with it. To flat out lie to focus your anger on me is pretty sad. Reminds me of how deranged the media is about Trump, still floating their Fake News about Russia Collusion even after their boy Mueller shot it down vigorously. But you know what, do what you want, say what you want. You're a hypocrite and a condescending prick and I'm done caring even a little bit.
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rog
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Post by rog on May 21, 2019 12:23:28 GMT -5
By the way, Randy, the posts I quoted above weren't yours. And it doesn't matter WHOSE they were. What matters is that we often seem to overreact with very little knowledge, and then when we gain more knowledge, we often feel quite different. Shouldn't our degree of reaction be somewhat proportionate to the amount of knowledge we have on the subject?
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