Zaidi's moves

[klaiggeb]

Boagie got me to thinking with what he posted in another thread, so I decided to look at as many of them as I can remember to see how they turned out.

Maybin-Bust

Parra-Bust

Reed-Bust

Joe-Bust

Venditte-Bust

Solarte-Bust

Cutting Mac-Bust

Recalling Mac-Very good.

Pomerance-Though I liked, and still like the move, to this point...marginal Bust

Vogt--Seems like it's working, but too early to tell

Vincent-Good one

Gott--Good one

Pillar-Ehhh. Probably leaning towards good. Still too early to tell.

Bergan-Decent to good

Tyler Austin-Decent


Given that it's only May, and given that I did NOT remember all of the other 'shots in the dark' that he took, my grade, at the moment for Zaidi is D+/C-

Ya'all may disagree, but the Maybin, Solarte and Parra moves carry a lot of weight in my mind.

[sfgdood]

your grade seems a bit high to me

[klaiggeb]

Randy I REALLY, REALLY wish I could have scored him an "F."

But with Vogt, Pillar, Austin, Vincent and Gott... I can't.

He cut Solarte, when I was sure he wouldn't.

He cut Parra when I was sure he wouldn't.


What I've said above is more than enough for me to score him as I did.


I have to score him on what he's done, and not that he didn't blow up the roster like you and I wanted.

[rog]

Cutting Mac-Bust


Rog -- I'm not so sure about that one. Mac hadn't put things back together yet, and no one else wanted him on their major league roster either, which is why the Giants were able to keep him in Sacramento.

That they risked Mac was certainly dangerous, but what would others here have done with him? If the Giants had kept him up, he might not have put it back together again.

[rog]

Boly tried to be fair in his grading. As usual, Randy didn't appear to.

I would probably go with a about a C or C-. There are two things that haven't been mentioned in this thread:

. First, the Giants haven't wasted much money. Unless they went big for a superstar like Harper (who thus far hasn't lived up to expectations even in the hitters' park in Philly), they didn't really have much to spend, particularly with regard to long-term contracts.

. Second, while we don't know for sure if they'll help or not, the two relievers Sam Selman and Fernando Abad have pitched spectacularly well in AA and AAA and are giving the Giants the comfort to think very seriously about trading Smith, Watson and/or Dyson.

I thought your grade was pretty close, Boly, but I do think you should have mentioned those pitchers. Mike Yastrzemski and his 8 homers for the River Cats are something to keep in the back of our minds as well, although I think Mike isn't too high on the depth chart.

I thought you were pretty generous with your comment on Bergen, who has been a little disappointing to me (although as we discussed, Rule 5 draftees usually don't make it). After today, you may have edged your opinion of Tyler Austin up a bit. I liked his signing and was hoping he would show his power, which today he finally did.

None of the moves thus far have been Ryan Vogelsong-level additions. But the moves you mentioned positively, Boly, have helped a little bit, and I'm hoping the two minor league relievers in particular will prove valuable in the future.

To me, the key parts of the season are coming up in the next two and a half months.

First the draft, of course, which is now less than four weeks away. The prediction I saw was that the Giants would draft the top high school hurler. I'd rather see them draft hitters, but I think it's important to draft the best prospect available at the time.

Any trades prior to the deadline will be important. Buster Olney predicted the Giants would want four prospects for Madison Bumgarner. Personally I'd rather see them pick up one really GOOD prospect, even if it means pairing a reliever or two with Madison in the deal. The Giants have the potential to really solidify the pitching staff of a team like the Brewers for instance. Remember, the draft date is important to the trading block too, since after that date the team signing Dallas Keuchel won't have to give up draft choice compensation. That also means that his signing team won't likely get much out of him until late June, which means a team trading for Madison could gain an extra month and a half on the clock.

But with each passing day, I think it becomes less likely that the Giants will trade Madison prior to the draft. Once Keuchel is off the market, the demand/supply ratio will improve, and as the deadline draws closer, so too might the urgency of the teams competing for Madison's services.

[rog]

I think that Farhan would have liked to blow it up, but I believe two things have prevented it thus far:

. First, there is the box office consideration. I imagine Farhan and the Giants worked out the parameters under which they would continue to try to compete, but also when they would consider blowing it up. Perhaps it's coincidental, but notice the quick changes after April?

. Second, in order to trade guys to blow things up, you've got to be able to get something in return -- especially when there was so little available in the high minors to replace traded pieces. It appears to have been prudent to wait. Several players have improved their trade value at least a bit. And of course timing can be key in making trades too. An injury or two could make a Giant who isn't presently all that intriguing to another team become a much more important piece.

[klaiggeb]

I thought your grade was pretty close, Boly, but I do think you should have mentioned those pitchers. Mike Yastrzemski and his 8 homers for the River Cats are something to keep in the back of our minds as well, although I think Mike isn't too high on the depth chart.

My comment was that I was rating him on the deals that I could think of.

Secondly, I have no idea how guys in the minors are doing, so I couldn't address them.



It's my opinion that they went and got Tyler Austin with the hopes that he would hit, and that Belt could be moved near the deadline.

And based upon the power we saw today, I think that's a fair bet.



As to the rest...we'll just have to wait and see, but D+/C- is the best, and most fairest, that I can be.

[sfgdood]

I think that Farhan would have liked to blow it up, but I believe two things have prevented it thus far:

. First, there is the box office consideration. I imagine Farhan and the Giants worked out the parameters under which they would continue to try to compete

Dood - hows that working out?

[rog]

Secondly, I have no idea how guys in the minors are doing, so I couldn't address them


Rog -- I think those things are important. I'll give you a pass though in that I think you were out of town when I posted it. Then again, it seems like it was just yesterday or the day before.



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[rog]

I think that Farhan would have liked to blow it up, but I believe two things have prevented it thus far:

. First, there is the box office consideration. I imagine Farhan and the Giants worked out the parameters under which they would continue to try to compete

Dood - hows that working out?


Rog -- I would say better since the first of the month. The Giants have actually been playing better (finally scoring some runs now that they're playing in hitters' parks), and more importantly, they've shaken things up this month.

Let's get real here for a moment, Randy. You would have cleaned house, but that just wasn't practical -- now or for the future. Let's ignore the now part and just look at the future.

Had they traded Belt and Panik as you wanted, they would have gotten very little in return. IF they had been forced to play Chris Shaw or Tyler Austin at first, the chosen one would have missed out on necessary minor league development time. If they had been forced to play Alen Hanson at second base, even you would finally realize he simply isn't good enough.

(Remember, Randy, you were all upset when the Giants didn't go to nine figures to re-sign Pablo, which would have been a flat-out disaster as it turns out.)

Even for someone like yourself who wanted to rebuild, the obvious strategy was to give the veterans coming off down seasons some time to rebuild their value and/or for better trade opportunities to surface, not to mention giving the Giants' youngsters time to develop into replacements.

Mark had a great idea in suggesting the Giants should have gotten Domingo Santana. He's had a very fine season to date. Boly's idea of getting Avisail Garcia wasn't bad either; Avisail has been OK. But you came up with no ideas for replacements, Randy, taking the foolish position that it was addition by subtraction.

How is it, Randy, that you understand the game so much better than I, yet you can't judge players and have given up on the Giants only to see them win the World Series? You can talk all you want, but giving up on the Giants before they went on to win the World Series was highly unbecoming of a Giants fan.




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[sfgdood]

Let's get real here for a moment, Randy. You would have cleaned house, but that just wasn't practical -- now or for the future. Let's ignore the now part and just look at the future.

Had they traded Belt and Panik as you wanted, they would have gotten very little in return. IF they had been forced to play Chris Shaw or Tyler Austin at first, the chosen one would have missed out on necessary minor league development time. If they had been forced to play Alen Hanson at second base, even you would finally realize he simply isn't good enough.

Dood - I thought you said to ignore the now part...it sounds more like you're ignoring the future. I've said all along I don't care what their record is as long as they are committed to the future.




(Remember, Randy, you were all upset when the Giants didn't go to nine figures to re-sign Pablo, which would have been a flat-out disaster as it turns out.)


Dood - actually I was more upset, as was Pablo, that the Giants never seriously attemted to extend his contract before his walk season. Do we KNOW that Pablo would have played as badly as he did in Boston? I don't have a crystal ball to tell me these alternate universe things.




Even for someone like yourself who wanted to rebuild, the obvious strategy was to give the veterans coming off down seasons some time to rebuild their value and/or for better trade opportunities to surface, not to mention giving the Giants' youngsters time to develop into replacements.

Dood - obvious? What if they continue to stink it up as they have thus far this season? Then we will be still getting the same nothing in return but a full year behind where we would have been on the rebuild. Yeah, not so obvious now eh?



How is it, Randy, that you understand the game so much better than I, yet you can't judge players and have given up on the Giants only to see them win the World Series?

Dood - I was hardly alone in that assessment. People within the Giants organization who know much more than me, gave up long before that. When you get swept 4 straight at home by the worst team in baseball that usually isn't a very good sign. Even as my expectations were shot, I continued to watch and hope for a miracle. At least I would never lower myself to root for the Dodgers in the playoffs like some douchebags did. It doesn't get much more Anti-Giants than that.

[rog]

Do we KNOW that Pablo would have played as badly as he did in Boston?


Rog -- Of course we don't. But Pablo had been in decline since 2011.



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[rog]

Had they traded Belt and Panik as you wanted, they would have gotten very little in return. IF they had been forced to play Chris Shaw or Tyler Austin at first, the chosen one would have missed out on necessary minor league development time. If they had been forced to play Alen Hanson at second base, even you would finally realize he simply isn't good enough.

Dood - I thought you said to ignore the now part...it sounds more like you're ignoring the future.


Rog -- I didn't say to ignore the now part, and I'm certainly not ignoring the future. What is it about missing out on necessary minor league development time that you don't understand. We think of older players as standing in the way of young players' development, but sometimes those older players prevent a young player's having to be rushed, as was the case for instance with Brandon Belt when was injured before the 2011 season and Belt was brought up prematurely. The Giants had said that the only way Belt would begin the season with the Giants was if he hit so well in Spring Training that he couldn't be sent down, but when Ross was injured, they felt they needed to change their mind even though Belt hadn't hit as well as either Eli Whiteside or Chris Stewart that spring.

Randy, why do you keep twisting things?




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[rog]

What if they continue to stink it up as they have thus far this season?


Rog -- Several Giants have improved their trade value this season. And even if they hadn't, it made sense to give them the chance to do so. Teams want to sell high, not low. Timing cqn be quite important.




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[rog]

I was hardly alone in that assessment. People within the Giants organization who know much more than me, gave up long before that. When you get swept 4 straight at home by the worst team in baseball that usually isn't a very good sign.



Rog -- You are the only person I know who gave up on the Giants in the 2014 season. It was not only disloyal, it was quite foolish.




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[rog]

Anyway, Randy, just what is it that you know that I can never understand that helps you to make such misjudgments?