Zaidi's plan? So says Alec

[klaiggeb]

According to Alec Pavolovic, the Giants actually have a plan.

Or rather, according to him, Zaidi has a plan.

Here's the link.

www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/giants-missed-bryce-harper-so-what-now-heres-farhan-zaidis-plan


I'm glad Alec thinks Zaidi has a plan.

As for me? My position hasn't changed on him in months and I don't expect it to.


Until I see some actual prospects hit our table, or actual players, I'll remain unconvinced.

I believed he was a putz, and I still believe he is a putz.

And Baer and everyone else not only bought the "he's so smart!" Kool Aide, they actually consumed it in massive amounts.

[rog]

I'm glad Alec thinks Zaidi has a plan.

As for me? My position hasn't changed on him in months and I don't expect it to.


Until I see some actual prospects hit our table, or actual players, I'll remain unconvinced.

I believed he was a putz, and I still believe he is a putz.


Rog -- Of course Farhan has a plan. Whether you agree with it is another matter.

But as closely as I can tell, because of your bias against analytics and your lack of understanding of how a manager and the front office now interact, you've been down on Farhan from the beginning. It can't be because he hasn't been associated with success, because he has. It can't be because he isn't respected in the industry, because he is.

You're entitled to your belief that he's a putz. But from the outside it appears to be an opinion based on bias, not on fact.

I respect you a lot, Boly, but Farhan is a lot smarter than any of us here. And even though you feel differently, if you and Farhan spent an hour in front of baseball people showing how much you know about the game, people might come away impressed with you -- but would be far more impressed with Farhan. If you feel differently that strongly, you should have found a way to interiew for the Giants' GM job.

Farhan had the intelligence, the interest, the knowledge and the driving desire to win an entry-level job in the industry and grow from there. None of us did.

I'm disapppointed that the Giants didn't land Bryce, but short of something like $375 million, I'm not sure they could have. One thing we've never addressed here is why we would overlook the many risks with Bryce. I would have done so not because I wanted to, but because he was a gamble at a quick way out of the unplayable lie the Giants find themselves with right now.

By the way, I'm not sure we digested it completely, but Pavlovic said that Farhan's plan was to continue to make small improvements as they became available, to balance fielding a competitive team in 2019 with fielding a highly competitive team in the future, and in being ready to trade off the Giants' assets at the trade deadline if things weren't playing out with the 2019 season.

Do we have a beter idea?


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[klaiggeb]

I respect you a lot, Boly, but Farhan is a lot smarter than any of us here. And even though you feel differently, if you and Farhan spent an hour in front of baseball people showing how much you know about the game, people might come away impressed with you -- but would be far more impressed with Farhan. If you feel differently that strongly, you should have found a way to interiew for the Giants' GM job.



Oh, man! Do I disagree.

What he has is more access to information than we do.

Give a few of us equal access to information, and I'd put my knowledge of the game, and a few others from this board, up against his any day.

Having that information doesn't make him smarter.

He just occupies a chair I don't want.

But knowledge of the game?

I don't think so.


I am sick and tired of hearing how bright this guy is.

Tired of it.

He has to earn that moniker from Giant fans.

Earn it.

Not have it given to him by writers who aren't half as baseball smart as most of us here on the board.

When he earns it, then I'll respect it and him.

Until then...Show me.

Show me what you can do, Farhan.

[rog]

Give a few of us equal access to information, and I'd put my knowledge of the game, and a few others from this board, up against his any day.


Rog -- I guess it's good to hole a high opinion of oneself. It's not as good though to be unrealistic.

What do you know, Boly, that Farhan doesn't, that would allow you to make better personnel decisions than he? There is a TON that he knows that none of the rest of us know that gives him an advantage.

I have a lot of respect for my own ability to evaluate baseball players. Those paying attention here may see that themselves. But I don't delude myself into thinking I could keep up with Farhan. Or any other major league general manager.


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[rog]

He just occupies a chair I don't want.


Rog -- I don't think I'm nearly as qualified as many to occupy it, but I'd love to. There's a lot more to the position than we see, but I'd love the challenge, even if I fear I wouldn't be up to it.

Then again, I'm eager to learn, so it's possible I could cut the gap a little over time. But I would be starting at far too big a disadvantage.




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[rog]

I am sick and tired of hearing how bright this guy is.

Tired of it.


Rog -- I agree. I would much rather hear how dumb he is and that the Giants made a horrible decision hiring him.




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[Islandboagie]

I agree 100% Boly. Just because someone might be intelligent in other walks of life, doesn't mean they're baseball smart. However, Zaidi doesn't NEED to be baseball smart, he just needs to have baseball smart people around him and listen to them.

[rog]

Not have it given to him by writers who aren't half as baseball smart as most of us here on the board.


Rog -- I think highly of this board, Boly, but you're way overvaluing our knowledge.



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[Islandboagie]

How many years have you followed baseball, Boly...50 years? I've followed it for 30 years, Randy is somewhere in between. Don has followed it for 70 years? That's roughly 180 years give or take. Playing, watching, reading...etc. According to Rog, that combined is less knowledge than a guy who got interested in baseball after reading the book "Moneyball" which came out in 2003.

180 years vs. 15 years?

Hmm.

[rog]

I agree 100% Boly. Just because someone might be intelligent in other walks of life, doesn't mean they're baseball smart. However, Zaidi doesn't NEED to be baseball smart, he just needs to have baseball smart people around him and listen to them.


Rog -- I think the Giants have at least a few smart baseball people, and I'm virtually certain Farhan listens to them. Plus don't kid yourself, he's plenty baseball smart.

Here is where I think you guys make a mistake in judgment. I don't think Farhan can play the game worth a darn. Not, by the way, because he doesn't understand it well enough to do so, but because he likely doesn't have nearly enough ability, and doesn't have the experience in things such as hitting the curve ball.

But he has plenty of knowledge to understand the game and make the player judgments he needs to make. He can make them a lot better than any of us. And as Boagie says, if he's lacking in something, he should have plenty of people to rely on.

You guys make it out like you have to have played the game as a level beyond high school to understand it. That's bogus. To play it well, yes. To understand it, of course not.

Until he gave baseball a professional try, Michael Jordan had never played the game beyond high school. Think he still understood the game? Of course he did. He couldn't play it well enough. Pretty tough to pick it up in your 30's. Not even as good an athlete as Jordan could do so.

But to understand it? Of course. You think Farhan can understand world class economics but not baseball? You're delusional.

Look, guys, I couldn't begin to play shortstop, but I know more about Andrelton Simmons compared to Brandon Crawford than you guys do because I've studied them a lot more than you guys have (especially Andrelton). You know what Andrelton does better than Brandon? To simplify, he simply gets more outs. Brandon is one of the best at doing so, in a game where today's shortstops are historically good on both sides of the ball. Andrelton isn't just one of the best, he's the best defensive shortstop, he's one of the very best defenders regardless of position in today's game, and he's being though of as one of the best shortstops of all time. That's pretty good for a guy who has played only six and a half seasons.

I'm sorry, but for all your talk about your "inside" knowledge (and there is some value in it), you guys simply don't understand Simmons' defense as well as I. Not that you couldn't. Simply that you haven't taken the time to do so.

Know how strong and accurate Brandon's arm is? Andrelton's is stronger and more accurate. Know how great Brandon's instincts are? Simmons'are even better. Know how much ground Brandon covers? Simmons covers even more. Know how good Brandon's fundamentals are? I think they're even better than Simmons'. Know how easy Brandon makes playing shortstop look? I think he makes it look even easier than Simmons.

But the most important difference is that Simmons makes more plays. He's more athletic, he has more reach, he has a stronger, more accurate arm, and he has even better instincts. I don't care how much time you guys have spent on the field; guys who HAVE done so agree with me, not you guys.

Let's think about something here. If a person can't understand certain things about baseball because he hasn't played the game above high school, doesn't it follow that a person who hasn't played it in the major leagues (let alone the minors) can't understand things a major league player past or present can?

In terms of playing the game, it's very difficult to play it better than players who have played at a higher level than you. Not impossible, but very difficult. But in terms of understanding it -- player evaluation and game strategy -- it's far from impossible to overcome.

If you guys truly understood the game better than I, you would have a much clearer picture of Andrelton Simmons. And you would likely be more interested in the game itself rather than simply the Giants' role in it.

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[klaiggeb]

What do you know, Boly, that Farhan doesn't, that would allow you to make better personnel decisions than he?



Let's be clear, Rog, I never said I knew more.

I said I'd put my knowledge up against his.

Baseball knowledge.

Not money management or front office skills.

The topic was baseball knowledge, nothing more, nothing less.

Please stop reading between the lines for things I didn't say nor imply

[klaiggeb]

However, Zaidi doesn't NEED to be baseball smart, he just needs to have baseball smart people around him and listen to them.



I totally agree, boagie.

But remember, the conversation began by talking about baseball knowledge.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[rog]

How many years have you followed baseball, Boly...50 years? I've followed it for 30 years, Randy is somewhere in between. Don has followed it for 70 years? That's roughly 180 years give or take. Playing, watching, reading...etc. According to Rog, that combined is less knowledge than a guy who got interested in baseball after reading the book "Moneyball" which came out in 2003.

180 years vs. 15 years?

Hmm.


Rog -- We simply haven't been exposed to the game at the same level as Farhan. With the exception of Don, I've followed the game longer than anyone here. And unlike most here, I study the game hours a day. But I don't know anywhere nearly as much as Farhan. He simply has access to a ton of important information we don't have.

By the way, Boagie, you don't think Farhan was interested in baseball before Moneyball? I think you're wrong about that. I think Moneyball kindled his realization that he could contribute to the game, but I think he was likely quite interested in it to begin with.

We talk about how we know more than he, yet none of us has developed the knowledge or the desire to work in major league baseball to anywhere near the extent he has. Not only has he worked in the game, he's developed quite a reputation in it. If you guys were wiser and more knowledgeable, you'd have a better idea of how much he knows that you don't.

If Farhan wants to pick Willie Mays' brain, he can. You and I don't have that opportunity.

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[klaiggeb]

Boagie:
I began following the game in 1956, but didn't start to understand the game until 1962 or 1963.

Overall 63 years.

[rog]

Here is what I expect from you guys if you truly know things about the game that I never can:

Back in 2015, Brandon Crawford suddenly developed a bit of power. He went from a guy who had hit 26 homers in four seasons to a bat with 21 homers in the 2015 season alone. If you guys truly know the game, why weren't you posting here the changes Brandon had made at the plate and how they afforded him so much more power?

Instead, I read about it from the type of guys you put down. You know, the "stat heads" at Fan Graphs and such spots. I asked at the time what changes Brandon had made, and no one knew. That was disappointing. I didn't see those changes either. That's not my forte. But because I study the game, I learned them before you guys did. And I know enough about the game that I could understand them when they were pointed out.

The beauty of video is that a player CAN see what he's doing differently. I realize that recognizing a problem is a lot different from solving it. But recognizing it is an important first step.

If you guys are as knowledgeable as you say, you should be pointing these things out to me -- not the other way around.

I agree, by the way, that there are things you guys see that I don't see as clearly. I simply wish there were more of them so that I could learn more.

[rog]

Let's be clear, Rog, I never said I knew more.

I said I'd put my knowledge up against his.

Baseball knowledge.


Rog -- And there are some things you could teach him. But there are many, many more that he could teach you. If all the pure baseball guys as you might describe them -- who have played at a much higher level than you -- haven't taught him yet, just how important can those things be?

I think Farhan has plenty of pure baseball knowledge. And as Boagie said, what he doesn't have, he can surround himself with. What Farhan has to decide is what opinion to form given all the different information he receives. Analytics don't always agree, just as scouts don't. When Farhan looks at analytics, they show him different aspects. Same with what the scouts tell him, and what he sees with his own eyes. He has to piece all that information together and make the best possible sense out of it.

Farhan can almost certainly do that better than we can. And he has exposure to information we don't have and in some cases can't even understand.

Although players are getting better and better physically, the big changes they're making now are mental changes that are occurring because they're understanding the game more clearly. They're getting information shot to them with a rifle, perhaps a laser, rather than the traditional shotgun. And the players are embracing the information more day by day.

Read about Trevor Bauer and his understanding of the game. I'm sure you knew and know a lot about pitching, Boly. But compare yours with Trevor Bauer's. Compare the information you had and have at your fingertips compared to what Trevor has.

Watch the MLB Network and hear former players talk about all the knowledge out there and how players are using it now. The game is changing at a much faster rate than it has changed over the course of our lifetimes. Not only are players bigger, faster and stronger, but they're using their heads a lot more in conjunction with their bodies.




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[klaiggeb]

Back in 2015, Brandon Crawford suddenly developed a bit of power. He went from a guy who had hit 26 homers in four seasons to a bat with 21 homers in the 2015 season alone. If you guys truly know the game, why weren't you posting here the changes Brandon had made at the plate and how they afforded him so much more power?



Here's what I remember.

1-He said Barry Bonds had him lower his hands which made him quicker to the inside stuff.

2-A few of us did comment on it, but since Barry was getting the credit, I, for one, saw no reason to post further because of the success he was having.

3-Since that season, his style has changed slightly, with his hands a bit higher than before.

[klaiggeb]

For me, and I emphasize, "me," I think I'm done posting about Zaidi, period.

I've made my position very clear, now I'll wait to see what he does.

Until then, likely the end of the trading period, I'm mostly done with the subject.

[rog]

I don't think it's necessary to post about Farhan, but I do hope we keep our minds open.

Here's what I find ironic: Had Farhan been successful in signing Bryce Harper, I suspect we'd be giving him kudos right now. As it is, I think most of us were disappointed the Giants were unsuccessful in landing him. But to me the key ingredient in the signing would have been the effect of new Collective Bargaining Agreement coming up on salaries going forward from that point.

If player salaries stay somewhat flat as they've been doing the past couple of winters, the Giants likely would have had to overpay for Bryce (depending, of course, on how he actually played). If the new Collective Bargaining Agreement leads to higher salaries, the amount paid to him in future seasons would be discounted when compared to the cost of paying someone else, making his contract more likely to work out well.

As fans, we naturally want to judge moves that are made, but sometimes there are simply things we don't know that prevent our judging them well.

Given their horrible circumstances, I was hoping the Giants would sign Bryce, but I don't know if it truly would have been good if they had. I have a feeling it might have taken $375 million or so to sign him, which of course would have increased the risk.

In the end, I suspect Bryce wound up in the right place for him, much as I felt the Marlins got a better deal from the Yankees than they had agreed to with the Giants for Giancarlo Stanton, and Stanton wound up in his preferred spot and one in which both he and his team were more likely to have success.

I'm pretty leary of Dallas Keuchel, but he's ranked something like the #83 player by Sports Illustrated, and he could be signed a whole lot cheaper than Bryce. And I think we can see why a pitcher WOULD sign with the Giants. It may be a long time before a power hitter does.

[rog]

Not money management or front office skills.

The topic was baseball knowledge, nothing more, nothing less.


Rog -- For a general manager, all those things are baseball skills. His job is to provide the best talent he can for the dollars available. That's a math problem where he is constantly looking for value, much as Barbara is very good at doing with her home and personal shopping.

The key is evaluation, which GM's now almost universally do with a combination of scouting and analytics. Anything that contributes to better evaluation is baseball knowledge.

When you're speaking of baseball knowledge, you seem to be speaking of on-field knowledge, but baseball knowledge goes beyond that.

To me, anything that contributes to evaluating players, to making plays, to making plays work better, to utilizing players, to baseball history, to baseball rules is baseball knowledge.


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[rog]

According to Alec Pavolovic, the Giants actually have a plan.


Rog -- Alec is in a better position than we are to make that judgment. He talks to players, coaches, management and general management on a relatively frequent basis. Some of us think we know more than Alec -- and in some areas we do -- but Alec has that huge advantage over us of being where he can get inside information, some of it off the record.

One of the things that bothers me on this board is that we often seem to give too little credit to various professionals. Allen seemed to be he worst at it. It was almost as if no one in the world did a good job except for Allen.



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