Whoop-tee-doo

[klaiggeb]

Just got home from my 14 day cruise last night, and for the first time since I've been gone, I was able to sign on to the Giant websites.

I simply REFUSE to pay $14.99/day to use the net on board a ship. Not happening. There is NOTHING going on in the world of sports that is THAT important.

So, as Archie Bunker used to say when he was unimpressed; "Whoop-tee-doo."

That's how I feel about what this team did, and didn't do while I was gone.


I'm fast losing interest, and I mean that sincerely.

Until I see these clods actually do something, I'm only going to watch on the periphery.

To the Giant front office I say what Monica Geller of Friends used to say, "Bite me, paperboy!"

[rog]

Until I see these clods actually do something, I'm only going to watch on the periphery


Rog -- Meanwhile, just what would you like them to do? You're clearly upset that they haven't done anything, so what are the moves you would have liked them to make that they haven't?

Welcome back from the trip, by the way. As you retirement trip, it was well deserved.

While you were gone, the Giants have made at least five moves, although none of them have been anything approaching a big one. But the Giants are digging themselves out of tough position. What are the moves you have been disappointed they haven't made yet?

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4970/whoop-tee-doo#ixzz5a14wlUXh

[klaiggeb]

Roger, I've been very, very clear on what they need to do, but just for the heck of it, I'll state my "updated" version

1-PROVE to your players and fan base you actually HAVE a plan.
\
So far, all we've gotten is lip service; descriptions of Zaidi, what he's done and blah-blah-blah.

I'm sick of hearing it.

The old saying "talk is cheap," certainly applies here.

If you're going to do a rebuild, then START already!

If you're planning to be competitive and trying to win, then DO SOMETHING!

For crying out loud! Show the fans you're actually alive.

Decide who's staying and who's going and MOVE THEM!


All we've seen so far is front office rhetoric; a front office treading water:

"We want a right handed platoon for Duggar."

"We may want a right handed platoon for Panik."

"We need versatility."



2-Stop farting around wondering IF Jeffy is going to be part of the staff next year.

For ME, he wouldn't be, and if I couldn't trade him, I'd make it clear that in 2019 HE will be in Holland's spot; you have to MAKE the team; it ain't guaranteed.


3-Either trade FOR, or sign an outfielder. I don't really care which.

You HAVE pieces, and since I've already stated them in the past, I have NO intention of stating them again, that can be moved; move them!

Start putting your team together.


4-Buster hasn't even been cleared to run yet so STOP THE CRAP thinking he's going to be ready out of the gate.

If you don't like Hundley, fine.

If you don't like Garcia, fine.

Get yourselves a damned catcher because I'm BETTING it won't be Buster until at least June, at the earliest, and even then, he's not likely to be what he will be later in the season.


Bottom line; Stop dragging (my heart around) your feet!

[rog]

What I'm asking is which free agents we would have signed, and how high we would have been willing to go. Which players would we have traded and for whom?

With the exception of a few teams, there hasn't been a whole lot of movement going on, especially given that the winter meetings have ended. Over two-thirds of the top 50 free agents are still available. That's just over one top free agent per team.

The biggest issue with criticizing the Giants for their inactivity is that we don't know what they have been offered in trade or what prices they would have had to pay for the free agents that haven't signed. Of the 16 free agents who have signed, which one would we have wanted to sign for more than he received? If it is a hitter, how MUCH higher would we have been willing to go to sign him into a pitchers' park?

I remember hearing Don Nelson speaking to the Warriors season ticket holders when the was coach and GM of the Warriors. He said he couldn't even make a BAD trade, that teams simply weren't very interested in trading with him. Personally I would rather the Giants wait to see how things shake out than to make a trade for the sake of making a trade, or signing a free agent for the sake of signing a free agent.

So, Farhan, stop dragging your feet as soon as you can, but do so when you're able to run, not crawl backward.

[klaiggeb]

I'm not going to get into that discussion because finances are involved.

I have no favorites, but doing nothing is still doing nothing.

[sfgdood]

This is why I don't fall for Rog's trap of naming specific names of players. First of all we aren't privvy to information we would need to assess the availability of such players. I tell WHAT I feel we need without naming who we should get. If that player has a lousy season that gives Rog a hammer with which to forever smack us with whenever we criticize a Giants move.

[rog]

doing nothing is still doing nothing.


Rog -- Absolutely. And doing nothing is usually better than doing something wrong.

[rog]

This is why I don't fall for Rog's trap of naming specific names of players. First of all we aren't privvy to information we would need to assess the availability of such players.


Rog -- Which is why I usually ask the specific moves you would like to make and the likelihood they could be made.

Your general pattern is to sit back smugly and then criticize the moves that ARE made. It is often the case that like in the Nunez trade, you don't know enough about the deal to criticize it. But that rarely stops you.

We all pretty much have our ideas. But doesn't it make sense to research them?

If we say that we don't like the Nunez trade because the players acquired are unlikely to be successful and give solid reasons why that is the case, whether it turns out to be right or wrong, that is a reasonable opinion. But if we shoot off our mouths without having a good idea what we're talking about, we're simply clanging gongs.

Speaking of which, Boagie, the Yankees are hiring Carlos Beltran as a special assistant to their GM. That isn't exactly what we would expect for a guy you insist is a bad apple, is it? Remember too that a year ago the Yankees apparently gave Carlos serious consideration for their open managerial spot even though he had no managerial or even coaching experience even in the minors.

Here is a summary from MLB Trade Rumors:


The Yankees are hiring recently retired ballplayer Carlos Beltran to a front office role, per MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand (via Twitter). Beltran will serve as a special advisor to GM Brian Cashman.

Last we heard, Beltran had declined a similar opportunity with the New York club last offseason. At the time, of course, he had only just wrapped up his illustrious, two-decade MLB career.

Beltran certainly was entitled to some time away from the game, but it has long seemed he’d remain engaged in some capacity. Indeed, the Yanks even considered him for their open managerial post, with Beltran indicating real interest in that demanding job.

It’ll be interesting to see what path the 41-year-old Beltran takes in his post-playing career, which is only just getting under way. As Feinsand notes, one of his first assignments could well be to help the Yanks lure Manny Machado, who shares an agent with Beltran.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4970/whoop-tee-doo?page=1#ixzz5a8L3yYkQ

[rog]

So, again, which are the players who have signed that we wish the Giants had signed, and how high would we have been willing to go to sign them?

I haven't studied the deals closely, but at first glance, I don't think I would have been willing to go higher for the signed players than they actually received. There are names I like, but there are none that jump out to me as players I would be willing to pay more or longer. Perhaps if I studied it more closely.

If we're going to criticize the Giants for not making moves, shouldn't we point out the moves they should have made that they have lost out on? We don't know what trades could have been made, but we have a pretty good idea what it would have taken to sign the 16 top-50 free agents who have signed.

Perhaps more practically, which free agents who are still out there would we sign, and how much would we be willing to pay for them? One thing that makes this off-season treacherous is that the Giants need outfielders more than any other position, and the landscape for free agent outfielders is fraught with difficulty for them. Another is that free agents tend to be older, and the Giants need to get younger. Yet another is that the Giants have little of value that they can afford to trade that is also attractive to other teams.

So which players have they missed out on? Or are we simply being impatient when prudence would be the wiser course?

[Islandboagie]

Rog- Speaking of which, Boagie, the Yankees are hiring Carlos Beltran as a special assistant to their GM. That isn't exactly what we would expect for a guy you insist is a bad apple, is it? 

Boagie- I'm really glad you listened to my pleas to let things go. It's clear that your frame of mind is not capable of assessing one's social behavior, which is why you will never understand my problem with Beltran. Since I tried being nice and forthcoming about how you can make people dislike you less, you've opted to again bring up the Crawford and Simmons debate, and now you've brought back the Beltran debate from the dead too.

[sfgdood]

If you ever want to find Rog, just follow the trail of freshly beaten dead horses

[rog]

now you've brought back the Beltran debate from the dead too


Rog -- I think you have been quite unfair to Carlos. I've tried to be open minded about him. Like you, I wasn't for the trade. We disagreed on how well he played for the Giants, but on that part I do understand your point.

Where I can't get on board is that almost everything I've read about Carlos indicates he a very good citizen (for lack of a better term). We asked Mark, who living in New York heard things about Carlos on almost a daily basis. Mark said good things.

When I believe someone is being unfair and I come across yet another fact that indicates Carlos is likely a pretty A-OK clubhouse guy, etc., I feel rather obligated to bring it up.

Now, if I come across significant evidence that goes against my point of view, I'll try to point out my change of mind before you bring it up. But on some of the things we discuss here, I have a hard time finding negative points. Which leads me to believe that your mind is made up regardless of the facts. That doesn't mean though that I shouldn't bring them up when something new comes up.

I'm not sure why you're so against Carlos, but you're about the only guy I've come across who is.





Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4970/whoop-tee-doo#ixzz5aBubRFeT

[sfgdood]

Rog, this is one debate in which I side with you...I LOVED Carlos' poduction when he was in the lineup for us...but can you not just accept the disagreement of Boagie and Boly and LET IT GO already? If not then you NEVER will understand why you are so disliked.

[klaiggeb]

Randy is right, Roger. You are my friend; you know that. And since you are my friend, please heed Randy's advice and mine (from multiple other threads).

When people disagree time after time after time...it's time to let it go.

[Islandboagie]

It doesn't bother me at all that you like Beltran, Rog. It doesn't bother me that Randy seems to like him either. That's your opinions and you're welcome to have them. I'm not trying to change your opinions of him, but I will defend my opinion of him, because I think the evidence I've gathered is significant. For the LAST time, here it is...

1. The Steriod connection: Beltran referred one of his teammates to a known PED doctor. That teammate got caught and rolled over on Beltran. Grated that was a shitty thing for the teammate to do, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that Beltran was associated with a PED doctor. Coincidence? I think we've learned that PEDs were commonplace and even the slightest hint of PED use has turned out to be true more times than not, even if we didnt want to believe it. So yes, I believe Beltran was a steroid user, I'd be stupid or naive to believe otherwise. But that doesn't make me dislike him. It does however speak to his character, one that is not as squeaky clean as you've portrayed.

2. The Number: When Beltran came to the Giants his first order of business was to ask Bochy for his number. This is not the worst thing in the world, this is not a reason alone for me to hate him. But then he stated that he just wanted to "fit in." Asking someone to change something isn't just fitting in. He was portraying himself as a good guy while demanding he get his precious number. And asking the manager of the defending world champions to give up his number? I find that disrespectful to what Bochy had accomplished. It shows a lack of respect, and a lack of character on Beltran's part. If I were in the same situation, I would say "You're the leader here, you won a championship wearing that number, I can pick another number. Now, Bochy did give him his number because Bochy is a good guy and as a manager you want your players happy, but it's clear he liked that number because he went back to wearing it the next season. Again, not a terrible offense, but it does paint a picture of just who Beltran really is.

3. Play on the field: Overall, in a Giants uniform Beltran put up good numbers, but his production only came AFTER the Giants took a nose dive in the standings. As a rental player you have to produce right off the bat, you cant wait while the team vying for a post-season spot is out of reach. That makes you a failure as a rental player. As I recall, the Giants had a 4 game lead when they acquired Beltran, and he only started hitting when they were on the verge of elimination. It's clear, despite his overall stats, his acquisition didn't help the Giants stay afloat. All the blame cant be put on his shoulders, but if he had hit the same before he was "injured" like he did after, I'm fairly certain the Giants would have again won the division in 2011. That's what bugs me the most, his numbers overall indicate he could have helped us, but he shit the bed when we needed him the most. Then of course when things weren't looking good for next years contract he put himself on the DL. Which brings me to #4.

4. The Phantom Injury: The team trainers couldn't find anything clinically wrong with Beltran so he put himself on the DL. Remember Will Clark playing hurt down the stretch after he collided with Mike Scioscia? Remember Kirk Gibson limping to the plate before hitting the homerun? Remember that little gymnast competing in the Olympics with a broken ankle? Those people were all getting paid less than Beltran, and likely less combined than Beltran. They had noticeable injuries, Beltran's injury was minor, if at all. That again speaks to his character.

5. The No Call: On live TV Beltran accused the Giants and Sabean of not even giving him a call after the 2011 season. Sabean said that wasn't true. I find it unlikely that he or his agent weren't contacted by the Giants. GMs weight every possibility and avenue they can. We know it was talked about publicly that offseason that there was interest in bringing him back, so logic tells me to believe Sabean. Regardless, why talk about it during a game on national TV? And why throw your previous employers under the bus when you failed to help them make the playoffs? Again, character.

Beltran is a money hungry, ego-driven piece of shit.

The end.

[klaiggeb]

You summed it up really well, boagie!

[rog]

Hey, Boagie, you did bring up points here that I had forgotten. The one about steroids causes me the biggest issue if he were indeed using (although if so, he wasn't in much of a minority).

It's hard to assess the degree of truth and impact of your points, but one thing I know is that the Roberto Clemente Award, the high regard from his teammates, his being re-acquired by the Astros to provide leadership and chemistry, his managerial consideration without having experience, and now his hiring as an advisor by the Yankees point to a degree of character you mention as lacking.

And I still find it hard to verify your objectivity when you tried to use Carlos' visit to a Children's Hospital to demean his character.

[Islandboagie]

The Yankees also hired Alex Rodriguez as a special advisor last season. I dont think they're interested in character. They're clearly interested in having the edge in dealings with Latin players looking to sign with a big league club.

[Islandboagie]

Rog- And I still find it hard to verify your objectivity when you tried to use Carlos' visit to a Children's Hospital to demean his character.

Boagie- My only point there was him going to the hospital with the flu. Do you think that's a smart thing to do? Do you realize how dangerous it could be for a child already sick to get the flu on top of whatever illness they already have? He was probably trying to do the right thing, but it's pretty careless nonetheless.

[rog]

The Yankees also hired Alex Rodriguez as a special advisor last season. I dont think they're interested in character. They're clearly interested in having the edge in dealings with Latin players looking to sign with a big league club.


Rog -- That's a good point. Didn't see Alex as being under consideration for manager, although that doesn't necessarily take away from your character point.

I heard he got a good recommendation from Jennifer Lopez, which Carlos was lacking.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4970/whoop-tee-doo#ixzz5aGEpZf00

[rog]

My only point there was him going to the hospital with the flu.


Rog -- IIRC he was just getting over a cold, which is an excuse many would use to get out of the commitment.

Carlos did miss the Mets' annual visit to the Walter Reed Hospital in September of 2010, saying "he had a meeting on Tuesday regarding the high school his foundation is opening in Puerto Rico and noted that he had visited a veterans hospital in the previous off-season with Fred Wilpon, the team’s majority owner."




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4970/whoop-tee-doo?page=1#ixzz5aGFd1ywX

[rog]

You might get a little different feel after watching this video of Carlos discussing aid to Puerto Rico:



www.foxsports.com/southwest/video/1056318019678

[rog]

This one was kind of fun:


www.denverpost.com/2017/07/17/houston-astros-hold-mock-funeral-for-carlos-beltran-glove/