Best Giants Defenders

[rog]

Here are my choices for best SF Giants defenders.  Please don't kill me over first base.  I'm certainly not sure, and my viewpoint is minority, but he is my choice:


P -- Juan Marichal?

C -- Buster Posey

1B -- Brandon Belt

2B -- Robby Thompson

SS -- Brandon  Crawford

3B -- Matt Williams

LF -- Barry Bonds

CF -- Willie Mays

RF -- Bobby Bonds


Other designiations:

Best Player -- Willie Mays

Best Hitter -- Barry Bonds

Best Fielder -- Willie Mays

Best Base Runner -- Willie Mays

Best Pitcher -- Juan Marichal

Best Manager -- Bruce Bochy

Best GM -- Chub Feeney, er Tom Haller, er Spec Richardson, er Brian Sabean

Best Announcer -- Jon Miller *

Best Beat Writer -- Bob Stevens

Best Columnist -- Glenn Dickey


*  Special mention to Hall of Famer Russ Hodges (although I didn't like him a lot), Al Michaels, Lon Simmons, Duane Kuiper and Mike Krukow

Think of the calls made by various Giants announcers:

Hodges -- "The Giants win the pennant!  The Giants win the pennant!  The Giants win the pennant!"

Michaels in Olympic hockey -- "Do you believe in miracles?  YESSS!!!"

Lindsay Nelson in football, on a pass completed to say Jordy Nelson -- "Jordy Nelson! ... Jordy Nelson!"  (Apparently that is all he had to say.)

My favorite all-time call regardless of announcer or sport:  Former Raiders All-Star cornerback Fred "The Hammer" Williamson while announcing a Grambling football game -- "Pass completed to ... ... ... ... Number 87!!!"

Second favorite call (maybe #1, actually):  Dandy Don Meredith when the camera man showed a sole and lonely Houston Oilers fan, who was sitting all by himself in a rapidly emptying Oilers stadium late in the game when the Oilers were getting killed on Monday night Football and the fan gave the camera the finger -- "Now there's a fan who believes the Oilers are still Number One!!!"

Or Howard Cosell -- "The ... National ... Football ... LEAGUE!"

Or Jon Miller -- "And that's the worst base running in the history of the game!"


I guess the grand winner would have to be "The Giants win the pennant!!!" with "The worst base running in the history of the game!" a close second.  I mean, can you really watch "The worst base running in the history of the game!!!" without laughing yourself into tears?  Dandy Don wasn't too bad either.

[sfgdood]

Only a MORON would choose Belt over JT Snow defensively

[sfgdood]

Hank Greenwald should get mention over Michaels who called FAR less Giants games than Hank.

[rog]

Only a MORON would choose Belt over JT Snow defensively


Rog -- What a biased statement, Randy. And one you yourself know isn't true. Regardless of what you think of me, you know I'm not a moron. And I chose Brandon over JT. Your statement was incorrect, and even you know it.




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[rog]

I completely forgot about Hank, which I shouldn't have done, especially given his recent untimely demise. I have to say that while I wouldn't put Hank in the class with the others (although you make a great point about Al Michaels' having only two seasons with the Giants), I really liked him. And my dad baby sat Hank's daughter down in Scottsdale three decades ago.

Aside from Mike Krukow, the announcer I learned the most baseball from aside from Mike Krukow was the highly unpopular Ron Fairly. I remember Art Eckman, whom I didn't like, made a final day summary of the entire season once, and I thought it was excellent. I remember the prank Lon Simmons pulled on Joe Angel in spring training. I remember Gary Parks mentioning my parents on the air. Nothing to do with a Giants broadcast, but I remember my dad telling channel 4 sports announcer Gary Radnich in spring training what a great bet Giants fans were missing by not attending spring training that year even with a player strike on.

[Islandboagie]

I agree with Randy, Snow was better than Belt.

As much as I like Posey, I think you missed there too. Kirt Manwaring was the best I've seen behind the plate.

Robby Thompson is not a bad choice at second, although I think Panik and Sanchez could be as good if not better.

Never saw Bobby Bonds play, but nobody played the right field wall at AT&T before or since better than Nate Schierholtz, he'd get my vote.

Matt Williams was great, but (although I never saw him play) Jim Davenport has long been considered the best defensive third baseman.

As for your Shortstop conversation, while Ozzie Smith was a very good shortstop, Omar Vizquel was better. Omar's career fielding percentage was .985. In Smith's 19 year career, he met or surpassed that percentage in only 3 seasons. Vizquel surpassed it 12 times. That means Omar's average season on defense was about as good as Ozzie's very best. I know fielding percentage isn't the only stat when judging defense, but that difference is staggering. It's enough to not have to compare those two much further. Omar also had the best instincts, better than Simmons.

[rog]

JT vs. Brandon was a tough choice for me, one I'm far from sure of.

I forgot Kurt Manwaring. I would be happy with either him or Buster, as is the case with Brandon or JT.

I think Robby was better than either Joe or Freddy. I thought Joe might surpass Robbie, but he's really fallen off since 2015 or 2016 IMO.

I think Bobby was better than Nate, whom I think was overrated a bit. Nate had a lot more speed than most realized, and he had a clearly stronger arm than Bobby (although Bobby was clearly ahead of Barry in that department). Bobby was likely the fastest Giant of all time, and he tracked the ball well too. I mentioned that I saw him drop three balls in a single game (as a center fielder), but he was quite good defensively.

I think Jimmy might have been a little overrated, as perhaps was Matt as well. But they were both very good, even better than Jim Ray Hart!!! Speaking of former Giants third basemen, Dirty Al Gallagher just passed away.

Omar's fielding percentage was better than Ozzie's, but that wasn't the only factor. I don't really know the answer on that one, but Ozzie is generally considered the best. I have commented in the past that I believe Ozzie prior to his arm injury was the best ever.

Have you watched the videos of Omar's transfers. I think that is the best single skill I've seen among the #6's. As for instincts, I have to plead a little ignorance regarding Omar, but if you look at all the Simmons videos, it's hard to think another shortstop's instincts could be better. Then again, I thought that about Brandon Crawford until I studied Simmons. I haven't seen anything specifically about Omar's instincts, but I really have just begun seriously studying him.

Regarding Simmons vs. Crawford, I'm about 99.9% sure now that Andrelton is even better than Brandon. I keep coming across more and more evidence that points toward Simmons.

In looking at all the fielding awards now, Andrelton has won a total of 16 at shortstop (out of a possible 19) plus two more as the best defender at any position, for a total of 18. Even though Andrelton has played only six full seasons (one fewer than Brandon), his 18 awards are behind only Yadier Molina's 23 --and Yadier has played more than twice as long. Brandon has won 3 out of a possible 21 shortstop defensive awards, and one more as the best defender at any position.

The three times Andrelton didn't win a shortstop award, he was beaten by Francisco Lindor twice and Brandon once.

I just can't find a single direction to look where I find any evidence that Brandon is better than Simmons, as good as Brandon is.

One more fact pointing toward Andrelton. Out of the possible 720 points as the best Fielding Bible shortstop in the six full seasons Simmons has played, he is just two points short of being unanimous in every one of the six seasons. That's HUGE dominance.

Of all the things we've discussed here, the one where I am by far the most convinced of my opinion is that as great as Brandon is, Simmons has been the better defender. Simmons is talked about as the best defender of our time, a generational defender, and one of the top three of all time. As great as Brandon has been, he's not in that class.

[donk33]

dk... why does Brandon have a better range factor than Simmons and yet Simmons is being called the better ss??

[rog]

dk... why does Brandon have a better range factor than Simmons and yet Simmons is being called the better ss??


Rog -- So nice to see you here, Don. I can't think of how many times I have almost e-mailed you again to make sure you are well. Great to know that you are.

And your argument is a good one. If Brandon has successfully fielded more balls than Simmons, why ISN'T that proof that he is the better fielder?

I think you know the answer here, but let's share it with everyone. Fielding percentage alone isn't a good measure because it shows success rate, not how good a job a player did in expanding his opportunities. Range factor shows which player had more opportunities, but it doesn't show how many balls were hit where he COULD have made a play.

How many balls were hit to a location where it was reasonable that the player could have made a play? How many opportunites did the player add with instincts that allowed him to create an opportunity when others wouldn't have?

I have thought about how to measure those factors and while I have several ways of doing so, none is definitive. Combined they aren't bad, but I don't know how good they are, either.

What I do know is that Inside Fielding reviews every play by every player. They show that Simmons has missed only 1.3% of routine plays, while Brandon has missed 2.2% of them. They show that Simmons has missed 19.9% of likely plays, while Brandon has missed 19.7% (slight advantage Brandon).

That Simmons has missed 33.3% of even plays, while Brandon has missed 48.1%. That Simmons has missed 54.7% of unlikely plays, while Brandon has missed 60.2%. That Simmons has missed 89.1% of remote chances, while Brandon has missed 93.7%. (Another way to put this last one is that Simmons has successfully fielding 10.0% of remote chances, while Brandon has been successful on only 6.3%.

That Simmons has gotten to 98 impossible plays compared to Brandon's 73 seems to imply that Simmons can go farther to get to a ball.

I have defined these here before, but here is a refresher:

Routine is defined as plays with a 90% to 100% percent chance of being made.

Likely is defined as plays with a 60% to 90% percent chance of being made.

Even is defined as plays with a 40% to 60% chance of being made.

Unlikely is 10% to 40%.

Remote is 1% to 10%.

Impossible is, as it implies, 0%.

We can see that Boly has defined a good parameter. Most plays are routine. That's why they say a defender needs to make the routine play first. Five out six of Crawford's chances have been routine. Six of Simmons' chances have been. Where I think Boly may have gone astray though is that likely based on two or three easy plays that he saw Simmons boot, he assumed that Brandon is better on the routine play. Those who have watched and evaluated every play made by either player have observed that Brandon has booted more than half again as many routine plays as Simmons has.

So the reason, Don, that Simmons is almost universally seen as the better fielder than Crawford despite having nearly 700 fewer career chances (in one fewer season) is that the ball has been hit where he could get to it a lot more often than where Simmons could get to it. It strongly appears that given the same balls to field that Crawford has had, Simmons would have successfully done so more often than Brandon.

Your question was a good one.




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