An Optimistic Chat

[rog]

Here is a positive excerpt of a chat with MLB Trade Rumors' Jeffrey Todd:



3:42 Any hope for a Giants fan?


Jeffrey Todd

3:43 I'd feel pretty good about having Zaidi in charge with the full support of ownership to act as he sees fit and utilize still-massive spending power. Never fun to be in less than a competitive stance but it's as good a situation as could be hoped for otherwise.

I mean, obv the contracts and talent pipeline aren't optimal. Given the tough spot, the other background factors are promising.


Rog -- As Randy has told us for over a year, the Giants have dug themselves a nuclear-sized hole (a little hyperBoly Since Boly isn't here) and have a bit of a slotted serving spoon with which to dig out.  The necessary young pieces aren't there to play or trade.  The Giants have at least a chance of being competitive because almost all their players are coming off down years, offering realistic chances for improvement, and unlike last winter, they do have money to spend.  If they wish to compete while still building at least a little bit for the future, they very likely need to guess right on some free agents and some major-league-ready prospects.

The mantra should be young players and short-term contracts.  At least the consensus in the industry seems to be that the Giants hired the right man for the very tough job.

[sfgdood]

Why is competing even a consideration? A TRUE rebuild puts short term success WAY into the back burner. The players that wind up playing, of course, will be giving full effort...but the goal of the team is to build long term success, not immediate fleeting success. Why is this concept so foreign to us here?

[Islandboagie]

Randy, the Giants just won't do that, they have too much invested in keeping the fan base they've acquired by winning 3 Championships. If they cut bait now all those casual fans will turn their allegiance to the A's or just stop caring about baseball altogether. That would be a poor business decision. As much as I understand your point of view, it doesn't make sense for the current situation.

[sfgdood]

Did you really say they will jump ship to the A's? The team with not only the worst stadium in the big leagues but with a solid reputation of selling off their best talent before paying them? If that's true I say good riddance. We don't need fair weather fans darkening the doorways of hallowed AT&T. Fans who don't understand how building championship rosters do not deserve to keep seats away from REAL fans

[Islandboagie]

Unfortunately Randy, MOST fans are fair weather. I couldn't care less who bay area fans want to root for and why, as long as the Giants keep getting a good amount of attendance and viewers, which means the Giants will continue to have money to spend. They just need to be smarter about how to spend that money.

[rog]

A few comments, Randy.

First, you know I agree with you that the Giants should rebuild -- and with Boagie that the Giants are unlikely to do unless it's as a part of a retooling. I myself am taking a little hope in that either the Giants will give Farhan the authority to rebuild if that's the way he thinks they should go, or more likely that he's good enough to pull off a rebuild and a reload simultaneously, concurrently and at the same time.

Second, don't forget that you gave up on the Giants two months before they won the World Series in 2014, so I would be careful of being too hard on casual fans.

Third, you are likely right that many of the casual Giants fans won't go to the A's, that they will instead just go on with their other activities, of which there are plenty in the Bay Area, if one can get through the traffic to get to them.

Fourth, the A's are planning to build a marvelous stadium with private funds. They've been trying for decades to build a stadium of course, but I saw a blurb on the MLB Netswork -- it's not all analytics, by any means; they have many ex-players in their network and interview players, GM's and managers -- that showed a mockup of the stadium and somehow gave me the feeling this time it might happen.

Regarding the Network, yesterday they had present free agent reliever Adam Ottavino -- 2.43 ERA with 112 strikeouts in 78 innings in 2018 -- as one of their panelists. He discussed the issues of the day with their regular panelists, most of whom are former players, managers or GM's.

Boagie has watched some of the network, and I he has stated that he doesn't like Bryan Kenny, who hosts the most analytical of the Network's shows, but I find I learn about the news of the day, the strategies and approaches of players, managers and GM's, and sometimes see how the players, managers and GM's feel about and have used the various types of analytics.

I will guarantee that if a serious baseball fan watches the Network, he'll learn something rather quickly -- whether it be regarding the field, acquiring players to put on the field, or analytics. One of the most fascinating things I've watched there lately was Harrison Bader going through pitch by pitch an at bat which led to a key homer he hit. He spoke about his plan for the at bat and what he was thinking about on each of the pitches.

Unless a fan has played in the major leagues himself, he had to have learned from that, and I'll venture that even some of the major league players would have enjoyed listening to Harrison's approach -- perhaps expecially those pitchers who try to get him out.

Not that a fan will necessarily enjoy every minute -- I certainly enjoy some shows more than others -- but I don't care no matter how good a fan we think we are, we can learn -- a lot -- from the various shows. When I'm getting dressed or simply brushing my teeth, I often turn the network on. Sometimes that will get me watching or recording the entire show. If nothing else, it entertains me for a few minutes.

One final point regarding the A's: You continually put down Billy Beane. Now you are criticizing the A's for selling off many of their best players before having to pay them. Yet even with such salary shackles, Billy has done pretty well with the A's.

And for a while, Farhan made his own contribution. The A's made the postseason that final two seasons Farhan was there, and he continued the postseason trend with the Dodgers.

Farhan was hired over 1000 other applicants for his job with the A's, eventually being promoted to assistant general manager. This points out a couple of things:

. Farhan must be a pretty good candidate. Have any of us been chosen over 1000 candidates?

. Clearly there are a lot of bright guys out there who really love baseball. Most of those 1000 candidates likely stayed at or went on to other jobs where they made many times as much as Zarhan made for the A's.

Here's a question for Randy and others: What is it you know that Farhan doesn't know that would prevent him from doing a good job for the Giants? I'd like to know what it is so I can learn too.

[rog]

They just need to be smarter about how to spend that money.


Rog -- And I believe they will be. I remember being excited when Al Rosen took over as GM, and particularly being excited when Brian Sabean came on board (although I questioned him strongly and perhaps wrongly later in his Giants tenure). I'm now even more excited about Farhan's coming aboard. He's got what most in the industry consider to be a very difficult task in righting the Giants, but I strongly believe he's the man for the job.

I've gone from hoping he's the right guy to feeling strongly that he is. I'm sorry to bring this comparison up, Boagie, but as with Andrelton Simmons, the more I learn about him, the more impressed I am. There are simply things that Simmons can do and has done in the field that even a shortstop as talented as Brandon Crawford can't do. I've seen it with my own eyes, and the more I see, the more such plays I see. I don't yet know that Farhan can do things others can't -- with few exceptions, it's unlikely that is the case -- but I am quite confident he'll do a good job, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is a VERY good job.

Study up on the guy. I'm pretty sure you'll like what you see.

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4949/optimistic-chat?page=1#ixzz5Z1wLYgP7

[rog]

Given that nothing very significant has happened yet, I'm about as optimistic as I can be in such dire circumstances. My expectations are tempered by the Giants' organization being in bad shape from top to bottom, so I don't want anyone to thing i'm giddy or anything, but I truly feel the Giants are turning a new, positive page.

[sfgdood]

If the Giants walk the tight rope between rebuilding and retooling, I ptedict that the current management structure will be long gone before the next parade down Market Street...and not just because of the formerly Giants hating stats geek in charge

[rog]

Let's just make a gentlemen's bet on it, Randy. Hard to say exactly what the result will be, but I'm optimistic. I don't know precisely how much latitude the Giants have given Farhan, but I think it will be enough for him to be successful. I could be overestimating him, but I think he's pretty darn sharp and has a high probability of gaining good results.

Incidentally, you don't know whether he hated the Giants or not during his time with the Dodgers. My guess would be that he was strongly pro-Dodgers and wanted of course to beat the Giants, but didn't hate them. One doesn't have to hate the Giants to either be a Dodgers fan or work for them.

I doubt he hates the Dodgers now. Hating the Dodgers could dilute his focus on his job, which isn't simply to beat the Dodgers but to ideally beat out each of the other 29 teams.

Not that either is optimal, but is it a better season if the Giants lose to the Dodgers in the NLCS, or if they make the playoffs and the Dodgers don't, but the Giants don't make it to the NLCS? Neither one meets our hopes, but I prefer to see the Giants go as far as they can, regardless of how the Dodgers perform.

I realize you hate the Dodgers, but aside from wanting to beat them just as I want the Giants to beat every other team as well, they mean little to me. You seem to place a lot more significance on them than I do. My focus is on the Giants.

[sfgdood]

If the Giants narrowly miss the playoffs and the Dodgers finish dead last, that is a better season to me to one in which the Giants lose in a Wild Card game or lose a 163rd game play-in and the Dodgers make the playoffs.

[rog]

I understand your position, but to me that is (slightly) anti-Giant. I believe what the Giants do is paramount; what the Dodgers do -- except as it affects the Giants -- is irrelevant to me.

[Islandboagie]

In both situations the Giants narrowly miss the playoffs so I'm not sure how that's anti-Giants.

I might be in the minority of Giants fans like Randy who dislike the Dodgers, but I don't really want the Dodgers to finish last.

The perfect scenario for me would be the Giants beating the Dodgers in the 7th game of the NLCS. #1 that would be an exciting series to watch and #2 it would be great to watch the disappointment on the Dodgers faces when we send them packing.

[rog]

In both situations the Giants narrowly miss the playoffs so I'm not sure how that's anti-Giants.


Rog -- In the one situation the Giants DO make the playoffs, but somehow Randy doesn't like it as well because the Dodgers DO make the playoffs.

Randy doesn't agree, but this seems to me to be an example of how hating the Dodgers can get in the way of loving the Giants.





Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4949/optimistic-chat#ixzz5Z9GWvoIy

[rog]

The perfect scenario for me would be the Giants beating the Dodgers in the 7th game of the NLCS. #1 that would be an exciting series to watch and #2 it would be great to watch the disappointment on the Dodgers faces when we send them packing.


Rog -- I'm with you on that. I'm curious as to how Randy feels, since with his philosophy, he would seemingly like it better where the Giants swept the Dodgers and crushed them. I certainly wouldn't mind that either, but I'm with you on liking the drama, Boagie, as long as the result is more favorable.

I won't make this into a sexual metaphor!!!

Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4949/optimistic-chat?page=1#ixzz5Z9HR7sQ1

[sfgdood]

I don't consider the Wild Card game a playoff game because it isn't a series...it's more like a 163rd game play in

[sfgdood]

I would prefer the Giants sweeping the Dodgers than beating them in game 7...unless the score in game 7 is 31-0

[Islandboagie]

I agree Randy, the wild card game is to see who GOES to the playoffs.

[rog]

I don't consider the Wild Card game a playoff game because it isn't a series...it's more like a 163rd game play in


Rog -- I think you guys are right that the Wild Card game isn't the playoffs. But it certainly is a postseason game. And wouldn't you agree that the Giants' win over the Pirates in 2014 was one of the most exciting postseason games we've seen?

Let's just say that the Giants couldn't have won the World Series without it.

I think too that it's good to remember how fine the line can be in winning the World Series. The Giants had a great 2010 postseason, yet it wasn't until the very final day of the regular season that they made the playoffs.

Remember too that when they won three World Championships in five season, the Giants made an accomplishment few teams have made, they weren't a great enough team to make the playoffs in either of the two seasons bookended in that run.

How bad they have become after that run isn't a very strong endorsement either. I'm not sure where the Giants rank since 2015, but I'm pretty sure it's in the bottom third or quarter of the 30 major league teams. I believe that since the first half of 2016 when we declared them the best Giants team in SF history they have been the second-worst team in the NL, ahead of only the hapless Padres.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4949/optimistic-chat#ixzz5ZCVY2FwA

[rog]

Let me ask this: Would we rather have had the Giants miss the playoffs as they did this past season but then have the Dodgers lose the World Series, or would we prefer that the Giants had made it all the way to the NLCS, lost it to the Dodgers, and then had the Dodgers go on to WIN the World Series?

I believe a Giants fan would prefer the latter, whereas an anti-Dodgers fan might have prefered the latter. Randy said that because of a different situation with the Dodgers, there is a scenario in which he would prefer the Giants' not making the posteason to a different scenario in which they did.

I believe that is warped thinking.

[rog]

But then I'm a Giants fan, not an anti-Dodgers fan. I don't dignify the Dodgers with having the ability make me even the tiniest bit less a Giants fan. If they have the ability to do that in my mind, I gave it to them.

And I'm not willing to give the Dodgers anything.

[rog]

How about this for a composite shortstop:

Glove -- Omar Vizquel

Arm -- Andrelton Simmons

Transfer -- Vizquel

Release -- Brandon Crawford

Accuracy -- All these guys

Agility -- Ozzie Smith

Range -- Smith

Grace-- Vizquel

Smoothness -- Crawford

Instincts -- Simmons

Best Nickname -- The Wizard of Oz

Best Back Flip -- The Wizard

Ability to Play Anywhere -- Omar

Best Pitcher -- Simmons

Best Hitter -- None of the Above *

Best Clutch Hitter -- Crawford

Gold Gloves -- Smith (13), Vizquel (11), Simmons (4), Crawford (3)

Fielding Bible Awards -- Simmons (6) **

Wilson Best Defensive Shortstop -- Simmons (5), Crawford (2) **

Wilson Best Overall Defender -- Simmons (1) **

Rawlings Best Overall Defender -- Simmons (1) **

All-Star Games -- Smith (15), Vizquel (3), Crawford (2)

Top 10 MVP -- Smith (1) #2, Vizquel, Simmons (1) #8

Hall of Fame -- Smith (in), Vizquel (cusp), Simmons (possible)




* Actually all four turned out to be pretty decent hitters, although in every case the bat paled before the glove.

** These awards weren't in existence when Smith and Vizquel played. Smith almost certainly would won all kinds of awards, and Vizquel would likely have been very well represented as well.

[sfgdood]

When I grew up, being a Giants fan and being an Anti-Dodgers fan was one and the same...and I'm pretty sure it was the same with Dodgers fans being Anti-Giants. This is what makes the rivalry great and fierce. I'm pretty sure this is still the case with Red Sox/Yankees fans.

[sfgdood]

Footwork...Vizquel by far

[sfgdood]

I missed Simmons winning 4 Gold Gloves.

[rog]

Footwork...Vizquel by far


Rog -- That's a great call, Randy. Omar was a dancer out there (and apparently a tremendously nice guy as well). But there was a skill he developed that was even better. I mentioned it (although I left out footwork, which was a better way of stating what I called "grace"). Look it up, and you'll see what I mean.

I thought one of the most exciting things I frequently watched in baseball was Willie Mays just warming up before a game. But while Vizquel perhaps wasn't quite as much a combination of grace and excitement, his skill there was amazing. And Omar used the same skill in his exchange on ground balls.

When you think about it, Omar's skill was a lot more meaningful than Ozzie's back flips.

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