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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 23, 2018 19:18:19 GMT -5
Just got home today from our 12 day cruise celebrating our 49th anniversary and sat down to watch our guys...
Our guys...
Who the heck are these guys?
They certainly are not OUR guys, that's for sure.
From what I have observed these past 2 years, this team is at LEAST 2 years away from even competing for a play off spot.
Every move, virtually, that Evans has made, has blown up in all of our faces.
Our top minor leaguers are in "A" ball, and years away.
We've become a team of players that can't stay healthy, have no speed, and who continue to under perform.
We've hung on to guys like Pence and Blanco out of respect for what they've done for us, but all that was to the detriment of our team.
I can't believe the number of moves we have to make just to become competitive.
If those morons go after Bryce Harper next year, I'll believe them to be even dumber than I first thought.
We are all screwed, both on the field, and in the front office.
Swell.
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Next Year
Sept 24, 2018 13:31:31 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 24, 2018 13:31:31 GMT -5
You've been complaining all year about the lack of power and fire from our players, and rightfully so. Doesn't Harper help fill that void? If you ask me he has power and fire in spades. I don't know if Harper would make a huge impact on the Giants, but doesn't he fit the mold of what you've wanted to see all season from our players? If so, why would the Giants be dumb for going after him? Or would you like to see the same veteran free agent patch job we've seen over the last few seasons?
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 24, 2018 14:42:57 GMT -5
I love Harper in our uniform, boagie, but IF we sign that ego maniac, how in the world do we put players around him?
We need a team, not just one player.
We had 'one player' with Barry and after Kent and Burks and Alou were gone, we went no where.
I'm tired of that scenario.
We need a number of good players, NOT just one bopper... who won't sign in our park anyway.
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Next Year
Sept 24, 2018 16:29:43 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 24, 2018 16:29:43 GMT -5
Well, I don't think we need A LOT, but what we need are impact players who play crucial roles. Most notably, we need a lead off hitter and a power guy. Harper would fit the power role.
Trade Belt and Panik. Pablo takes over at first and Hanson at 2nd.
I like what I've seen from Rodriguez, Suarez and Stratton to be comfortable enough with them as the 3-4-5 guys. But what we need is a good number 2. Cueto will be out all of next season, and Samardjiza is crap.
Our bullpen is ok.
So...we need a lead off hitter, power bat and a solid #2 pitcher and let the other pieces fall where they may. With the subtraction of Pence, Belt and Panik off the payroll I think we can make that happen.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 24, 2018 19:36:06 GMT -5
Hanson is NOT an everyday player.
On the pre game show yesterday, Bochy pretty much said as much, as did Estes.
He can't hit from the right side. (Bochy was tactful but THAT is what he implied), and every off speed pitch, he chases.
As Bob Dylan sang in his song Hurricane, "...he ain't the guy!"
Pablo is no longer an everyday player, either.
Yes, he'll make the plays, but heaven forbid ANYONE throw one high.
He's too short to get it.
Trading Belt will bring something, more than Panik for sure.
But boagie, none of what you are suggesting is enough.
Not even close.
But I'll play along.
Duggar in CF
Harper in RF.
Slater/Shaw in LF.
Longo-3B
Crawford -SS
Posey-C
We're better off keeping Panik than trading him because he won't bring much.
Suarez and Rodriguez, as much as I like them, are LIKELY to have big adjustments their sophomore season as the league catches up with them.
Bum still isn't Bum.
Our bullpen has coughed up 22 last at bat games.
Sorry, boagie, but we ain't close.
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Next Year
Sept 24, 2018 20:47:53 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 24, 2018 20:47:53 GMT -5
Pablo and Hanson do things to win games. That's what we need. We tried your method of bringing in big names and that failed miserably.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 24, 2018 21:45:53 GMT -5
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 24, 2018 22:56:10 GMT -5
Well, I don't think we need A LOT, Rog -- While I am trying to avoid falling into the trap of negativity with such a tough season, the Giants have a lot of holes in the rotation and on the field. A strong comeback by Buster would be a nice start, and bounce backs from Belt and Panik would be nice. That would still leave the Giants with an extremely thin outfield and an aging third baseman. (Can we hope for a Final Spurt Year?) The pitching will likely decline, so the hitting really needs to rebound. The Giants have a lot of dead salary, but they do have money to spend with the departure of McCutchen and Pence. Once again a very challenging winter. What the Giants are trying to do is walk a tightrope with disappointment and frustration on the one side and disaster on the other. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4830/next-year?page=1#ixzz5S59dxmOo
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 25, 2018 5:37:36 GMT -5
I have a hard time imaging Bryce Harper's signing with the Giants. I have a hard time imagining almost any left-handed power hitter signing here unless he's desperate.
The Giants are going to require more creativity than we're likely to come up with here. I would think the obvious trend would be to trade pitching for hitting and then to sign pitching on the free agent market. The trend should be toward getting younger and controllable players should be golden., At the other end of the spectrum, the Giants can't seem to develop an outfielder if their figurative lives depend on it, which to some extent they do. Can anyone think of a good outfielder the Giants have developed since Chili Davis?
As Boly said, don't trade Joe Panik, whose trade value is down. It's highly likely he and Brandon Belt will each hit better in 2019. Holding off a year on trading Belt would make sense from a strategic standpoint, since Joey Bart likely won't chase Buster Posey to first base until 2020.
If the Giants are going to count very heavily on Pablo Sandoval and Alen Hanson, they're likely to be very disappointed. Both are backup players, and Pablo is injury-prone to boot. I believe that a year from now we won't hold either play in the same esteem we hold them today.
If the Giants could somehow rid themselves of Evan Longoria's salary, they should do so. Evan may have a Final Spurt Season in him, but even that appears to have taken place in 2016.
Brandon Crawford is still a solid player with a golden glove, but he appears to have peaked in 2015 and 2016.
On the positive side, Buster, Belt and Panik should have better seasons in 2019 than this year. Maybe Jeff Samardzija can come back healthy, which would give the Giants added rotation depth from which to deal a starter for a hitter.
Aramis Garcia is showing he might be able to become the third catcher behind Buster and Bart, although Nick Hundley isn't making a lot anyway.
Austin Slater is looking like he might make a decent fourth outfielder, and Abiatal Avelino should make a good utilityman. Between the two, I have more confidence in Avelino, whose speed and versatility should make him valuable. The Giants shouldn't be afraid to deal Hanson, whose trade value may be at its highest.
The Giants seem to be trying to stay competitive now until their younger players can add value. They are trying to accomplish two goals, each of which is challenging on its own, and both of which are extremely difficult to pursue together.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 25, 2018 10:37:27 GMT -5
Rog says..If the Giants are going to count very heavily on Pablo Sandoval and Alen Hanson, they're likely to be very disappointed. Both are backup players, and Pablo is injury-prone to boot. I believe that a year from now we won't hold either play in the same esteem we hold them today.
***boly says***
Thank, you! Bingo!
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 25, 2018 13:05:01 GMT -5
I rarely play bingo, but I gave in a couple of weeks ago they played baseball bingo! I won when Chris Shaw began his career going 1 for 22, and they called out O-45. He went 2 for 4 the next game, making him 3 for 26, and I was pronounced the winner when they called out I-15.
It's a good thing I won then too, because the next night he went 3 for 3 and fell completely off the bing card with an average of .207.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 25, 2018 13:06:49 GMT -5
Seriously though, the last time I played Bingo it was of the baseball variety. My son and I played in between innings of the San Jose Giants games, and he hit the first Bingo and won a pizza. I think he pretty much ate it all himself too.
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Next Year
Sept 26, 2018 14:16:09 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 26, 2018 14:16:09 GMT -5
Rog says..If the Giants are going to count very heavily on Pablo Sandoval and Alen Hanson, they're likely to be very disappointed. Both are backup players, and Pablo is injury-prone to boot. I believe that a year from now we won't hold either play in the same esteem we hold them today.
***boly says***
Thank, you! Bingo!
Boagie- If you take Pablo's numbers in 230 at bats and average those out to 500 at bats, Pablo would have led the Giants in homeruns and RBIs. If you do the same with Hanson, he would have 14 homeruns 68 RBIs and would lead the team in triples with 8. Hanson has been proving you guys wrong since he put on a Giants uniform.
I don't expect either to have a huge impact on our lineup next season, but trading away Panik and Belt and letting these guys play will allow us to maybe pickup someone who WILL impact our offense, and perhaps leave us with enough for someone who can impact the front of our rotation as well. You gotta consider the big picture, Boly.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 26, 2018 15:50:55 GMT -5
But here's the problem with both players, boagie, and here's what you're NOT seeing.
The MORE the played... the LESS EFFECTIVE each of them became.
That's significant, especially in the case of Hanson.
he's not been very good in the 2nd half, hitting a paltry and weak .225.
In the last 28 games, he's hitting.196
In August, he's hitting .217
In September, he's hitting .214
As I've continually pointed out; zero plate discipline.
Chases off speed pitches at a Matt Williams, 1986-rate, (crazy nuts!), and rarely making solid contact on any pitch.
As for Sandoval, After hitting .268 in May, he dropped to .261 in June, and down to .210 in July.
The more he played, the less effective he became.
Sorry boagie, but your logic simply is not solid here.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 27, 2018 5:36:54 GMT -5
One reason both players fade as they hit more often is that they face left-handed pitching more. Neither player can hit a lick from the right side. Pablo has a .440 OPS against southpaws, and Alen isn't much better at .452. There are pitchers who hit better than that against lefties.
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Next Year
Sept 27, 2018 13:57:40 GMT -5
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Post by Islandboagie on Sept 27, 2018 13:57:40 GMT -5
Actually, Boly, the months in which they played the most were some of their better production months. Rog's counter-argument is closer to the truth, and one I cannot dispute. Pablo and Alen are not good against lefties, but we could sit them against lefties. When I say those two could be starters i mean they could replace Panik and Belt as the starting first and second baseman on the official roster. That doesn't mean I think they should be slated to start 162 games next season. As we know, Buster plays his fair share of first base against lefties, so that dynamic wouldn't change.
I guess what I'm saying is we shouldn't spread the money so thin by bringing in players that are past their prime, instead we should aim for players that are actually going to contribute to us winning.
What do we need to win?
In my best estimation, a lead off hitter, a big bat in the middle and a frontline starter. Again, I'm not convinced Harper is the guy for us..but who would you rather have...
Belt, Panik and Slater?
Or
Sandoval, Hanson and Harper?
Imagine this lineup...
Leadoff hitter CF/RF Hanson 2B Harper LF Posey C Crawford SS Longoria 3B Sandoval 1B Hernandez RF/CF
Again, I realize Harper is a longshot. The chances of him landing with the Giants is little to none. But don't think the Giants aren't strongly considering it. Their decisions in the outfield over the last few years would suggest they are going to be shopping this upcoming free agent market for an outfielder, that is if they plan on trying g to be competitive.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 27, 2018 14:31:53 GMT -5
I see your point, boagie, but I think the money would be better spent on 2 players; a RF and a LF.
I'm with you, though, NO MORE over the hill re treads tying to hang on for a couple of more years, which is what I believe McCutchen turned out to be.
Now in a small park where his power and below average defense aren't exposed, such as Yankee stadium, it works.
In AT&T?
It doesn't and didn't.
I haven't given up on Mac for next year. It was clear to me that he had finally made the jump to the next level and WOULD HAVE HAD a good season.
Then he got hurt... again.
In any case, I'm not holding my breath for a good season next year.
Randy's right; we need to rebuild.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 27, 2018 18:39:13 GMT -5
Pablo and Alen are not good against lefties, but we could sit them against lefties. When I say those two could be starters i mean they could replace Panik and Belt as the starting first and second baseman on the official roster. Rog -- It's a lot of fun watching Pablo and Alen play, isn't it? Pablo just seems to have a contageous, smiling approach to the game, and Hanson can pick 'em up and put 'em down. They could be platooned, especially since they would be the strong side of the platoon, but I see some problems. First, and perhaps most important, I don't think they're good enough -- especially Alen, even though he's played excitingly well this season. Second, having two players platoon with them would stress an already crowded roster. Third, I don't think now is the time to trade either Panik or especially Belt. Hope that they rebound strongly this season -- a distinct possibility IMO -- and trade them a year from now when Joey Bart is ready to push Buster to first base. Proceed with a rebuild, but keep Joe and Brandon around in case things go strongly right -- but mostly because they might bring considerably more a year from now. I would certainly be open to trading either player or both if the right deal came along, but I don't think the Giants would receive proper value if they traded them now. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4830/next-year#ixzz5SLdvYQzB
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 27, 2018 23:01:25 GMT -5
You're right, Rog, now is a terrible time to trade either.
Injuries and down years... not going to bring back a lot.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 28, 2018 11:27:47 GMT -5
Imagine this lineup... Leadoff hitter CF/RF Hanson 2B Harper LF Posey C Crawford SS Longoria 3B Sandoval 1B Hernandez RF/CF Rog -- In that lineup there are only two above-average hitters -- one of whom is excellent and one who is very good. There might be three or four hitters who are below average. I'm assuming Steven Duggar as the lead off man, and I don't find that lineup as appealing as it first might seem. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4830/next-year#ixzz5SPkfRfNY
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 28, 2018 11:28:53 GMT -5
It might be a good thing Joey Bart is on the way. I was surprised, but Johnny Bench caught only 138 games when he was older than Buster is.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 28, 2018 12:11:28 GMT -5
You're right, Rog, now is a terrible time to trade either.
Injuries and down years... not going to bring back a lot.
Rog -- I myself am beginning to tire of Brandon Belt. Too many injuries. As he showed more than ever this season, inconsistent hitter. He simply disappointed me after overcoming such a horrible, albeit brief start, by hitting as well as he has ever hit in his career, only to be lousy after his appendectomy.
But he's one of the best fielding first basemen in the game, and perhaps if he could stay healthy, he might hit more consistently.
Both he and Joe are coming off bad seasons, as Boly pointed out, and IMO both have the potential to rebound nicely. If the Giants are going to trade them, perhaps a year from now would be the time. With regard to Brandon, a year from now should be very close to Joey time, which would be an excellent time to deal him lineup-wise.
If the Giants WERE to trade Brandon this winter here is something that might work (and isn't my idea except perhaps for a detail or two):
Belt Longoria Bumgarner
for
Santana Franco Pivetta or Vasquez
I haven't studied this enough to recommend it or whether either team would be likely to do it, but the Giants would get younger, acquire two young players with potential, and save a lot of salary. Santana is expensive but is on the books for only two more seasons, which wouldn't fit too badly with the Bart scenario.
The Phillies have other young players of interest as well, including Nick Williams, Cesar Hernandez and Scott Kingery and are said to be willing to trade anyone aside from Aaron Nola and Rhys Hoskins. If they're looking first at 2019, Bumgarner could be attractive, especially if they think it would help entice him to sign with them as a free agent.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 28, 2018 12:48:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade Bum, Rog, and here's why;
1-He's coming off 2, back to back seasons in which his season was interrupted due to injury.
That being the case, we really DON'T know where he's at.
2-Krukow is against it. Mike says, and Flannery agrees, that Bum really knows how to pitch and that he's evolving; i.e. NOT a fast ball guy any more.
Tons of pitches have gone through this, Robin Roberts, Marichal and others who had to make adjustments. Bum is doing that.
3-With all the kids on this staff, Rodriguez, Suarez and Stratton first and foremost, the starters NEED veteran leadership. He's the only one on the staff who can provide that.
4-He has an UNMATCHED tenacity on the mound, an edge, if you like, that this club NEEDS!
So though Bum might get a lot in return, it's not good for us to move him, not to mention not smart, and more importantly, it would come back to haunt us, just like trading away Gaylord did.
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sfgdood
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stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
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Post by sfgdood on Sept 28, 2018 18:08:19 GMT -5
This is why I've been saying for a year to blow it up...leave nobody safe...get young studs here and don't even give a quick thought to how many games are won, at least for a couple of years. It would only be one more year if they followed my advice a year ago.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 28, 2018 19:22:16 GMT -5
The situations with Madison and Gaylord are about as different as different can be. Had the Giants not mistakenly traded Gaylord for a drunk -- albeit one who could throw the ball extremely hard -- they could have kept him and enjoyed his pitching into his 40'. Madison likely won't pitch that long, but much worse, he can a year from now and the Giants would get virtually nothing.
The problem with trading Gaylord wasn't simply that he was trade, but that the Giants didn't get nearly enough for him. A year from now the Giants could get even less for Madison than they got for Gaylord.
That the Giants haven't begun extension negotiations with Madison would seem to indicate they are at least CONSIDERING trading him. Let's not forget that Madison had already begun declining by the time he became injured.
I'm also having trouble with our complaining about the large raises players get and then wanting to hand out a huge percentage increase to re-sign Madison.
By the way, back in the old days when players were in servitude their entire careers, they sometimes had to take pay cuts even after very good seasons.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 28, 2018 21:07:06 GMT -5
Disagree.
The Giants DIDN'T do their homework on McDowell.
If they had they would have KNOWN what he was off the field.
And knowing he was an alcoholic, you're right; they didn't get near enough for him
But they didn't and they didn't.
Gaylord ticked people off everywhere he went.
he was not a team guy ever.
That's one of the reasons he moved around so much.
But my point was and is this: They traded Gaylord who went on to have a ton of good seasons.
That' could happen to Bum, and I say, likely would.
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 28, 2018 23:47:57 GMT -5
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 28, 2018 23:54:41 GMT -5
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rog
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Post by rog on Sept 29, 2018 0:02:17 GMT -5
But my point was and is this: They traded Gaylord who went on to have a ton of good seasons.
That' could happen to Bum, and I say, likely would.
Rog -- Your point here is a good one. But the Giants wouldn't have risked losing Gaylord for no players, as is the case with Madison. And Madison began to decline three seasons back, which somewhat offsets his advantage of being a young free agent.
By the way, I wouldn't simply trade Madison to trade him. But I think his trade value is about as good as any Giant except perhaps Buster or a minor leaguer like Bart.
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Post by klaiggeb on Sept 29, 2018 11:01:16 GMT -5
Much like Panik and Belt, Bum is coming off 2 down years; injury-featured down years.
His value is lower now than it would have been, and with a year remaining on his contract, why would a team trade for him only to:
a-Have to pay him gazillions next season
b-Only have him for one year.
c-Want suspected, damaged, over the hill goods.
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