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Defense
Sept 2, 2018 21:12:52 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 2, 2018 21:12:52 GMT -5
This team couldn't score a run if you loaded the bases every inning w/nobody out... but Alen Hanson really put on a show today.
frankly, based upon ALL the reports I'd read about him, and having watched him so much this year, I didn't think he could have made even one of those plays, let alone all of them!
Wow!
Impressive!
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sfgdood
Long time member
stats geeks never played the game...that's why they don't get it and never will
Posts: 90
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Defense
Sept 3, 2018 9:59:16 GMT -5
Post by sfgdood on Sept 3, 2018 9:59:16 GMT -5
precisely why we shouldn't make judgments based on small samples. I was thinking of you when he made those plays
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Defense
Sept 3, 2018 10:50:35 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 3, 2018 10:50:35 GMT -5
The vast majority of my comments were on his hitting, Randy, not his defense.
Yes, I've said many times how shaky he looks...he's shaky on routine plays, and THAT'S my biggest concern.
All of those were "you-don't-get-time-to-think" plays, and believe it or not, for a good athlete those are simpler plays.
Not easier to make, no way, but it's the THINKING that causes infielders to screw up routine plays.
I will always remember what Brooks Robinson said back in the mid 60's. "The hardest play is the one where you have time to think about it. Don't. Just get the ball and throw hard to 1B."
Or words to that effect.
Hanson is one of those. You DON'T want him thinking. You want him instinctively reacting.
But he STILL won't hit much above .220 with his approach at the plate.
He's Emmanuel Burriss with pop and more speed.
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rog
New Member
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Defense
Sept 3, 2018 14:03:11 GMT -5
Post by rog on Sept 3, 2018 14:03:11 GMT -5
He's Emmanuel Burriss with pop and more speed. Rog -- Certainly more pop, but I'm not sure about more speed. Alen's fastest this season has been 28.5 feet per second (19.4 mph). That's an 11.2 hundred meters. Running on a baseball field is far different than sprinting on a track, of course, but we're talking 11.2 second with a flying start. I can't find anything on Burriss's top speed when he was younger, but in 2015 at age 31 his top speed was 28.1 feet per second out of 18 competitive runs compared to Alen's 28.5 best on 138 recorded runs. When Emmanuel was 25 as Hansen is, they were likely pretty close. Probably a slight advantage to Alen. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4804/defense#ixzz5Q49zd2ng
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Defense
Sept 3, 2018 19:57:11 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 3, 2018 19:57:11 GMT -5
You're doing it again, Roger.
Why in the WORLD would you go looking up that stuff?
It was a throw away statement, not something that needed a deep dive!
He's faster than Burriss. End of discussion.
that's all there was to it.
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rog
New Member
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Defense
Sept 4, 2018 21:04:44 GMT -5
Post by rog on Sept 4, 2018 21:04:44 GMT -5
I understand your point, Boly, but please understand mine.
You say Hansen is faster than Burriss (was), end of discussion. Well, it's NOT the end of the discussion.
When Burriss was drafted, part of it was because of his fine speed. He had no pop, and with his manos de piedra, had little defense. But he could run, so he had potential.
I didn't really expect to find any true measure of his speed, since he hasn't been much of a major league factor for more than half a decade, but he played enough in 2015 that they were available. Then I remembered Emmanuel was fast enough that you complained that he didn't hit the ball on the ground enough.
So, a couple of issues here.
First, I think of both Hanson and Burriss as burners. I think of Hanson as having a little pop, while Burriss had practially none. So the pop part of your statement was clearly correct. The "more speed" wasn't as obvious and in fact may not have been correct. It is a subject where there is more than one side to the story.
A subject that seems questionable is your desire for Burriss to hit more balls on the ground when in fact he hit more ground balls than almost any player at that time. Of COURSE, given his speed, the idea of his hitting the ball on the ground more is a fine one. But when a guy is already one of the league leaders in ground balls, how much more CAN he hit the ball on the ground? Over three out of every four balls Manny hit were either ground balls or line drives.
What Manny needed to do most was hit the ball harder. Only one out of every seven balls he hit were hit hard. Compare that with some of the best hitters who hit the ball hard nearly half the time.
At the other extreme, and this is the direction you were headed, Manny could have benefitted from hitting some his ground balls SOFTER and/or with more chop. Most of the ground balls he hit became outs. In fact, while he it an anemic .237 overall, he hit an even more anemic .203 on ground balls. Manny didnt need to hit more ground balls; he needed to his ground balls harder -- along with everything else.
If a hitting coach sat down with Manny, the coach might say, "You need to hit more ground balls." Manny might reply "I'm hitting a lot of them, but they just aren't going through." The batting coach might reply, "We've got to find a way that you can hit them harder. You've got the right idea, but we've got to find a way you can hit the way you're hitting but just hit the ball harder. And maybe spreading your hits around so they can find more holes."
Maybe the dialogue would be entirely different, but the end result needs to be to hit the ball harder. Not to hit it on the ground more. They might discuss bunting more for hits, which might result in a few and would at the least draw the third baseman in so a few balls might get by him. Hitting the ball to all fields would help, but Manny did that already, pulling 29%, hitting 38% to center, and banging 32% to right. Maybe get him to try to pull the ball more when batting right-handed to take advantage of the drawn-in third baseman. Drag bunting, especially while batting left-handed, might help.
But my point here would be that having a better knowledge of how and where Manny is hitting the ball can help develop a better hitting plan. I suspect Manny would have been more amenable than most to making changes. But hitting the ball on the ground more looks to be very difficult, and unproductive at that.
Sometimes the little differences DO matter. And sometimes there IS more than one side to the story. I'm sorry that it seems I'm nit picking. As Paul Harvey used to say, "And now you know the rest of the story."
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Defense
Sept 4, 2018 23:37:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Sept 4, 2018 23:37:55 GMT -5
Burriss was pretty fast, I'm in agreement with Rog. I don't think you can definitively say Hanson is faster. That might be your opinion Boly, and you're welcome to it, but it's not a fact.
I do however understand the annoyance of Rog questioning everything, but in this case I believe he had some motive to question your claim.
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Defense
Sept 5, 2018 9:40:00 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 5, 2018 9:40:00 GMT -5
Okay. Fine. He's not faster.
Does it really matter?
My point is this; if you think he's not faster, just say so.
It's all opinion anyway.
We can't prove who is faster, so why all the rhetoric?
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Defense
Sept 5, 2018 9:41:00 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 5, 2018 9:41:00 GMT -5
I'll only offer these points in defense of my statement.
Did Burriss EVER score from 1B on a missed pick off play?
Did we EVER see Burriss do the electric stuff we've seen Hanson do on the bases?
The answer to both, is no.
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Defense
Sept 5, 2018 13:34:08 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Islandboagie on Sept 5, 2018 13:34:08 GMT -5
I can't argue that. I believe Hanson is probably more aggressive on the base paths.
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rog
New Member
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Defense
Sept 5, 2018 19:34:56 GMT -5
Post by rog on Sept 5, 2018 19:34:56 GMT -5
Manny wasn't around long, so I don't really remember much other than that he was indeed fast. I think Boagie is right about the aggressiveness on the bases. The evaluations of their base running is clearly positive on both. Just a guess on my part, but I wouldn't be at all surprised that -- in accordance with what Boagie has said, -- Alen takes more extra bases but also gets thrown out more. I haven't researched that, so I could be wrong.
And you're right, Boly, that it doesn't really matter all that much which player is faster -- especially they are likely very close. It's just that I like accuracy, and when I read that Alen was faster, I wasn't sure that was true. At the very least it's not true to anywhere near the extent that Alen has more pop.
As you have mentioned, Alen's fielding is questionable, even if it does include some fine plays. As I have mentioned, Alen can't hit from the right side and this is a platoon player at best. Hanson and Avelino -- or even Hanson and Tomlinson -- as a platoon at second base if Joe Panik is traded? That's a possibility.
I'm still more optimistic about Avelino than Alen, but it's little more than a quick impression. I haven't really researched it. I think -- and again I'm not sure -- that Alen was considered the better prospect along the way. Alen likely needs to improve his fielding, and he most certainly needs to improve his hitting from the right side -- or else pull a JT Snow.
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Defense
Sept 5, 2018 19:48:14 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 5, 2018 19:48:14 GMT -5
I am too. Mark has tried to down play Avelino, but Pavlovic, among others, think he has much more upside than just a utility guy.
I remember when Crawford came up. The word on him was, great defender...can't hit.
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rog
New Member
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Defense
Sept 6, 2018 16:14:59 GMT -5
Post by rog on Sept 6, 2018 16:14:59 GMT -5
Avelino can hit. I think Mark has learned more about Avelino since his first comment and now realizes he'll likely be with the team next year. Avelino could even be the starter at second base if the Giants trade Panik. If not, he might get a lot of play at three infield positions.
I don't know if he can learn to play the outfield or not, but clearly he has the speed for any of the three positions and likely the arm as well. Given that the Giants gave up only a month of McCutchen and that they needed to get rid of salary anyway, I think they fared well in the deal. I would think it's reasonable that three or all of the four players they acquired in their deadline trades the past two seasons will play for them, and remember, between McCutchen and Nunez, they gave up only half a season combined. Pretty good return really.
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rog
New Member
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Defense
Sept 6, 2018 16:24:39 GMT -5
Post by rog on Sept 6, 2018 16:24:39 GMT -5
I remember when Crawford came up. The word on him was, great defender...can't hit. Rog -- I don't think anyone thought he couldn't hit at all. He hit .371 in a partial season at San Jose, with an OPS over 1.000. But I don't think anyone expected him to hit as well as he has the past four seasons. I know I didn't. Over his entire career, I had him pegged pretty close. But I didn't expect the past four seasons, especially 2015. His fielding was better than I expected too. At one time Ehire Adrianza was ranked ahead of him as a fielder. Brandon has become one heck of a solid player. Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4804/defense?page=1#ixzz5QMJSQMby
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Defense
Sept 6, 2018 18:11:23 GMT -5
Post by klaiggeb on Sept 6, 2018 18:11:23 GMT -5
I think next year is way too soon for Avelino, Rog.
The concern is STILL for his bat.
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rog
New Member
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Defense
Sept 6, 2018 18:54:42 GMT -5
Post by rog on Sept 6, 2018 18:54:42 GMT -5
I think next year is way too soon for Avelino, Rog. The concern is STILL for his bat. Rog -- That might be true. But it is also true that the Yankees were overloaded with middle infield prospects, and the Giants took advantage. Abiatal has hit OK through AA and in winter ball, but he's hit only .241 in AAA. I look at strikeouts and walks to evaluate plate control, and he doesn't fare well there. Ironic, but if the Giants send Avelino back to Sacramento next spring, that may mean they think he can start, and if they keep him around as a utilityman because of his glove and legs, that may show they believe he will be only a utilityman. I initially called Avelino a utilityman when the Giants acquired him, but his non-hitting skills give him at least a shot at becoming a starter. You are likely right that 2019 will be too soon. Let's watch and see how Abiatal hits in the winter league this winter. Thus far he's hit .272 in winter ball, which given that he started at age 19 provides a nice recommendation for him. While Abiatal struggled to hit .250 in AAA this season, he hit .337 in AA, with a .945 OPS. The potential seems to be there. But it's a long jump from AA to the majors. MLB.com has Avelino rated as only the Giants' #17 prospect, but I think that is low. Juan De Paula, the pitcher acquired in the trade, is rated #18. De Paula, 20, is said to have the potential for three "solid or better" pitches when he develops. He is cited for moving his fastball around the strike zone and adding velocity as he matures. Avelino is cited for his strong arm and soft hands. He is looked at as a utilityman, and he plays three infield positions. He is said to be a good contract hitter lacking pop and on-base skills. A year ago we heard serious complaints about the Giants' return for Eduardo Nunez. But now, Shaun Anderson profiles as the Giants' #3 prospect, and 18-year-old Gregory Santos as #13. Anderson is said to have the look of "a durable #3 starter" with command of fastball, slider and change, and a curve he can throw into the mix. MLB.com thinks Santos has a similar ceiling, although at 18, he is much further away. As was pointed out after the trade, Santos is liked for his ground ball tendencies, and his fastball has jumped to 97 mph. "The Giants like how he works with a quick tempo and think he'll figure it out." So, really, how badly does it appear the Giants did for two months of Nunez and one of McCutchen? Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4804/defense#ixzz5QMqBvHT4
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