There is some joy in Mudville

[rog]

There is some joy in Mudville.  Might Bobby has traded Andrew.

The Giants get two players in return, one of whom is Abiatal Aveleino, speedy infielder who has played all three infield skill positions.  Between AA and AAA, Avelino has stolen a career-high 25 bases this season.  He is 23 years old and has batted a combined .287 with a .779 OPS.  Avelino must be placed on the 40-man-roster this winter in order to avoid the Rule 5 draft.

McCutchen will be a Yankee, and if the Giants want Andrew back, they could pursue him in free agency this winter.

[rog]

Avelino's manager Jay Bell says he has a plus-plus arm and is a very smart base runner. Abiatal's stolen base high is 54 in 2015 (A ball), and he has been successful on over 80% of his steal attempts.

Good contact skills and plate discipline. Short swing. No power.

[rxmeister]

I don’t get the joy, and this kid they picked up will never see the light of day in the major leagues.

Cutch leads the #SFGiants⁠ ⁠ in runs, hits, HRs, RBIs, 2Bs, SBs, and BBs.

However to you guys, he was a washed up bum. I understand this is a move you have to make, but all the Cutch hate around here was irrational, and makes me wonder about everyone’s knowledge about the game. Hope he comes back next year on a reasonable one or two year deal, but I expect them to move on.

[klaiggeb]

Mark, read Ray Ratto's article; see the link below. That explains better than I can why he had to go.

www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/andrew-mccutchen-will-always-be-reminder-what-never-materialized-giants


I still don't see what you saw in him.

What I saw was a major under achiever, a below average outfielder, and a guy who simply did not drive in runs as expected.

Even Longoria, who missed almost a month, has but 10 or so RBIs less than Andrew, and Longo's season has been freaking awful.

[sfgdood]

Rx...you just don't seem to get that A) we're going NOWHERE this year and 2) Cutch leading the team in those categories says more about the team than it does about him. Mainly that we can't stay healthy and when we ARE healthy, we're inconsistent at the plate. The one thing I'll give Cutch credit for is that he hasn't gotten hurt. I wish him well in NY and beyond (unless he signs in LA), but the fact remains he didn't do what he came here to do, he's past his prime and we needed to get what we can for him and start to see more of the September callups in the OF. There are others I'd have 86d but this will have to do I guess.

[klaiggeb]

In the end, the deal cost us Kyle Crick, Brian Reynolds, and Mccutchen + cash for these 2 minor leagures.

At this point getting ANYTHING for McCutchen, although I am concerned that a pepperoni pizza and an IPA beer wasn't thrown in, is better than nothing.

[sfgdood]

Well since we traded McCutchen, he cancels out and it ends up being Crick and Reynolds for the two guys we ended up with. The main thing is, like Rog pointed out, the deal keeps us under the penalty position so we wont lose a draft pick next June.

And we can still sign Cutch back if we wanted to. I wouldn't, but we'll see.

[klaiggeb]

So, what...no pizza or IPA?

[rog]

Mark, I think the guys the Giants picked up are something like the two they picked up for Eduardo Nunez ago in that one has a low ceiling and other a higher ceiling but also a much higher risk. I don't like this duo as well as last year's twosome, but I think Avelino looks like he has good potential to be a nice utilityman, and the pitcher might have some potential if he can learn to get the ball over the plate.

The reason I titled this thread "Joy in Mudville" is that almost all our posters are glad the Giants got SOMETHING for him. The deal likely also ensures the Giants will stay under the cap, which I think was a tight situation.

If Andrew enjoyed his time in San Francisco enough, he still might re-sign with them if they wish to go in that direction (and they certainly seem to need outfielders).

Andrew IS having a tough season, but it has been tough in luck, which has diminished his results. Randy sees this as an excuse, and I fear others don't believe it much, but the evidence is strong. Statcase believes he is having about the same season as he had the last two -- in terms of how well he's hitting the ball. His line drive rate is above his career average, and he has hit the ball hard more often than ever before.

[rog]

In the end, the deal cost us Kyle Crick, Brian Reynolds, and Mccutchen + cash for these 2 minor leagures.


Rog -- I would view it as Crick and Reynolds for 80% of McCutchen's season and the two minor leaguers, but I think your point is a good one. The gamble with Andrew didn't pay off well. It was a much better gamble IMO than the trade for Evan Longoria.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4796/joy-mudville?page=1#ixzz5PmsREWhJ

[klaiggeb]

Andrew NEVER, EVER said he liked being in SF.

Not like Holland did.

Not like Pence did.

Not like Huff did.

He wasn't happy here, fine.

Go somewhere else and be happy.

You screwed things up in SF quite nicely.

[rog]

I think it is a long stretch from Andrew's never saying he liked being in San Francisco to saying he wasn't happy with the Giants.

[rog]

When the Giants went to Pittsburgh for the first time with Andrew, he spoke of how much he liked the Giants fans and Bruce Bochy. I see no reason to have anything but respect for Andrew.

[sfgdood]

I've seen him express liking where he was (in SF) in different features and interviews on NBCBA. I don't hate Andrew...I'm disappointed in the Giants for trading Crick for him instead of rebuilding

[klaiggeb]

Every time I heard him set up to answer the question and say he liked playing in SF...he tippy-toed around the question and avoided answering.

I don't hate him. I don't dislike him.

He was a disappointment.

[rog]

Andrew was indeed a disappointment. But I think luck had a lot to do with that.

The one thing Andrew definitely DIDN'T do was hit well with runners on and in scoring position. He did however hit well in late & close situations and also with high leverage. Given his poor luck, that was impressive.

[rog]

Deadline trades (and Andrew's was a different kind of deadline) often bring me back to the Carlos Beltran trade -- and of course Zack Wheeler is going against the Giants tonight.

Boagie has been highly critical of Beltran, and I think it may come down to two things:

First, Carlos hit poorly prior to being injured and

Second, Carlos become injured and I think Boagie felt Carlos should have played through it.

No question Carlos hit poorly right after the trade, although he hit very well after the injury and hit well for the team overall. And Carlos might not have played through the pain as well as he could have. He was day-to-day for a long time before the Giants finally put him retroactively on the DL.

But I have a feeling that if Carlos made a mistake, he might have tried to convince the Giants he was closer to playing than he truly was. That would indicate he really WANTED to play.

Four other things make me believe Carlos truly was injured, not just hurt.

First, he could have taken longer to report to the Giants than he did, which indicates he understood the importance of the situation.

Second, at the time of the trade, he had played more games for the Mets that season than any other player, which would indicate he wasn't sitting out games when he should have been playing.

Third, right after he signed his seven-year contract with the Mets I believe he played through a hamstring injury when he shouldn't have been playing but wanted to justify his contract. The previous season he stole 42 bases and then attempted to steal twice in his first games with the Mets. During the time I believe he was injured, he went 58 games without a single steal attempt before trying 21 times in his final 87 games of the season.

Fourth, Carlos wanted to play badly enough in his career with the Mets that he went against the his team's wishes and had shoulder surgery so he could play sooner.

I hope Boagie will take time to read this when he comes back. The circumstantial evidence over Carlos' career prior to the trade seems to indicate he was a gamer. I get frustrated when he seems to overlook so much evidence that points to the likelihood that the future Hall of Famer wasn't jaking it when he came to the Giants.

I believe Boagie gave Carlos a very bad rap, and then simply expanded it over the years, all the way to criticizing Carlos for visiting a children's hospital when he was reportedly recovering from a cold. Certainly indicated Carlos was a "gamer" when it came to the kids, but Boagie found a way to cricize Carlos for his effort.

Anyway, I wanted to summarize the evidence on Carlos' behalf and perhaps add a bit I had previously missed. I can't help but think of the trade -- and Boagie's very negative and I believe unfair reaction to it -- at the deadline.

I should mention too that I opposed the trade at the time and still oppose it. But that doesn't mean I have to throw Carlos unjustly under the bus.

[sfgdood]

I don't have the exact quote but McCutchen sent out a very classy very grateful tweet today showing love to the organization and the fans

[rog]

That's the kind of guy Andrew is alright.

[rog]

Andrew took nicely to the lead off spot. In his final nine games with the Giants, he reached base 16 times.

[rog]

I mentioned that Beltran played for the Giants the day after his trade was finalized. Andrew McCutchen was unable to reach New York tonight in time to play for the Yankees. McCutchen was going from San Francisco to New York, which may have explained the difference. Beltran went from Cincinnati to San Francisco. Beltran was in the Mets' clubhouse saying goodbye to his teammates just before the Met's night game with the Reds.

According to ESPN, shortly before an 8-2 win over the Reds on Wednesday night, Beltran arrived in the clubhouse and told his teammates he was on his way to join the Giants in Philadelphia.

"He came over and shook everybody's hands and said thank you," Mets outfielder Angel Pagan said. "We were very happy for him. He's going to be with a team that's a contender."

Pitcher R.A. Dickey has known Beltran since 2000 and will miss having him in the clubhouse.

"He's a very complete individual, not only on the field but off," Dickey said. "He's a valuable piece that's leaving. It's kind of sad."

I knew Carlos waived his no-trade contract to play with the Giants, but I didn't know that the Mets first wanted to trade Carlos to the Indians, who were willing to assume $2.5 million more of Beltran's remaining contract than the Giants, but Beltran shunned the Indians, instead choosing the Giants.

In retrospect, it's really too bad Beltran didn't go to the Indians. Who knows what the Giants would have done then, but there is a chance they wouldn't have lost Zack Wheeler, who as was said by the Giants' announcers tonight is becoming another ace for the Mets.

Including tonight's loss to the Giants, Wheeler has yielded only five earned runs in 46 innings over his past seven outings. That's an ERA just below one.

Didn't mean to end on a bummer, but for more than one reason, that's what the trade was.

[rog]

This is an extreme extrapolation and because of Wheeler's arm health almost certainly wouldn't have happened, but what if the Beltran trade hadn't happened, the Giants kept Wheeler, and didn't need to sign Samardzija, freeing the $90 million up for say an outfield bat or two?

That's really an unfair extrapolation, but the Giants' future might have been quite different if they had kept Zack, who was the 6th overall pick in the 2009 draft.

Darn that Beltran anyway. I don't care what kind of a guy he is!

[rxmeister]

To address your two points, Randy, I said in my post that I understood the move and agreed that it had to be done. Also, I made my point before the second prospect was named, and baseball consensus is that the Giants did well. However we have to agree and disagree on point two. I totally agree that his leading the team in all those stats says more about the team, but the fact remains the same. He’s the best of a sad bunch, but you traded the best and kept the worst. And if he disappointed, that’s really on all of you guys, because your expectations were too high. You expected the former MVP to have an MVP type year and he’s no longer that player. However he’s still a good everyday player and that’s in short supply this year in San Francisco. And in this offseason bid to improve on 2018, who are you bringing in to replace Cutch’s “disappointing production?” Bryce Harper is not realistic, and the only comparable FA out there is AJ Pollock who will not be any better than Cutch, and miss half the season with injuries. Maybe you can trade for a player or two, but then you have to say goodbye to the few good prospects that you have.

[klaiggeb]

I posted this on a different thread, but Sabean's podcast is worth listening to.

omny.fm/shows/knbr/playlists/podcast/embed?style=cover

[rog]

Sadly, Andrew McCutchen is indeed the best outfielder available behind Bryce Harper. Adam Jones may be out there, but Adam's fielding is also shredding, and he just can't get on base, even with a decent average. Plus, why would Adam -- and sadly, perhaps Andrew as well -- want to hit at AT&T? As Mark said, they could sign A.J. Pollock to head up their disabled list. At least he might benefit in triples as much as he loses in home runs to the beautiful park (except to hitters).

So the strategy needs to be to sign pitchers and trade for hitters. Sadly, that would mean good-bye to Madison Bumgarner and likely one of the young starters. But how else are they going to fill the outfield?

Honestly, did Chris Shaw look like the answer?? He has yet to see his first major league secondary pitch, and he's struck out two of the three times he came to the plate. Admittedly, he faced a very tough pitcher, but in the minors hitters can see good fastballs but are less likely to see good curves, slider and change ups. Apparently the scouting report is you can just throw Chris fastballs, and he'll go back to the bench cursing "pshaw!"

Chris is going to run into a few, but for every one he runs into, he'll be walking back to the bench a bunch.

Steven Duggar showed he could handle the outfield and the base paths, but he too walks back to the bench far too often. Statcast says he was as lucky as Joe Panik was unlucky.

Speaking of Joe, how do you trade him when his average is so low, and he can't reach down on the run to field a ground ball? He used to be a very good if overrated fielder, but now he's well below average there. If the Giants are going to trade him, they need to get his average up first so that he'll have some trade value.

Surprisingly given his good start, the same is true of Brandon Belt. When he had his appendix surgery, they apparently extracted his bat as well. But the Giants don't need to trade Brandon for at least a year, when Joey Bart might be ready to force Buster Posey to first base.

And speaking of Duggar's glove, apparently he didn't lend it to Austin Slater. Austin is willing and versatile, but he's not a very good outfielder. Plus, he has the bat of a center fielder/middle infielder/utilityman. Alen Hansen can hit from the left side, but he too isn't exactly have glove, will travel.

The Giants don't have trouble coming up with backups though; they have trouble coming up with outfield starters. They're having modest success in developing them; they can't inspire the good ones to come to a park where fly balls go to die; so they'll have to trade for one -- or two -- probaby not three.

The good news is that unlike last winter, they'll have some money to spend. Instead of being the team that has to juice up the pot to get teams to take salary off their hands, they could absorb a bad contract to get a declining player who might help out for a year or two -- if they can get a good, young player along with the oldie-but-possibly-goodie.

As was the case last winter, the Giants need a lot in their Christman stocking. But at least they have the money to buy milk and cookies for Santa Claus. Being from the North Pole, Santa may be the only one who wants to come to the swirling winds of AT&T.

And it's said that on the field he would give Pablo a tussle for the heavyweight title, and in the clubhouse he's flighty. Plus, for a team that needs youth, Claus is more than a gray beard.

[sfgdood]

To RX's point...my reasons for wanting McCutchen gone isn't due to any disappointment I feel about his numbers. He could have been studly and I would feel the same if the team was in the same spot. I think the expectations--particularly in the second half, when he has always shone--were mostly justified based on his track record and what the Giants parted with for him. Nevertheless, the reason the Giants HAD to make this deal was more due to the situation of the team and the need to get SOMETHING for a guy who at most would only have played 20 something more games in orange and black, netting us basically nothing.

We need to think beyond this season. Would McCutchen have been helpful this final month of 2018? Maybe but what good would it have done? We're not making the playoffs, bro. We need to stock up more young talent and give the callups a chance to show what they got and don't got. This deal gives us like 27 starts that those kids would not have gotten.

As for who we bring in to replace Andrew, that really is irrelevant. This team is broken and it needs a complete rebuild if we want to return to 2010, 2012 or 2014 standards. In house flipping jargon, this rebuild project is a "full gut" job. We need to stop just slapping paint on it and do some major redesign and structural work.

[klaiggeb]

I can say without ANY reservation what-so-ever, that I never, EVER, expected him or Longo to be the superstars they once were.

But what I DID EXPECT with the bat was:

McCutchen-.270+, 20-23 HRs, 70-80 RBIS...and he won't even come close to ANY of those numbers.

Longo: .250-.260, 21-24 HRs, 70-80 RBIs.

He might have been close in HRs had he not missed 35 games.


I EXPECTED solid defense from Longo...which, until recently, he has not given us. Prior to getting hurt, he was borderline terrible. Since coming back, he's been much, much better.


I EXPECTED decent to above average defense from McCutchen...which he DID NOT give us.

He was...okay, but he mis played SOOOOOOOO many balls that had ZERO to do with the wind, and he was shaky under a bunch of other ones.

Not acceptable.


I've watched AT&T Right Fielders since the place opened, and HE is the worst STARTER we've had out there.

[sfgdood]

on the issue of McCutchen not wanting to be here...someone else did not want to play here at first...Willie Mays. I think maybe the fans picked up on it because he never was loved as much as Cepeda and McCovvey and the guys that didn't play in NY.

[Islandboagie]

It's not a matter of Mccutchen liking it here or not. His employment with the Giants only made sense if we were in a pennant race.

[klaiggeb]

Boagie; where are you in Hawaii?