Boy does this team suck ass

[holiday613]

No further explanation neccesary

[rog]

Well, they may be doing so without Andrew McCutchen soon.

[sfgdood]

that ball that dropped in the 2nd inning pretty much showed the 'care' level of this team

[holiday613]

Aug 21, 2018 22:09:06 GMT -5 rog said:

Well, they may be doing so without Andrew McCutchen soon.

Too littel too late Dood...They should have shipped him before the trading deadline..Once again another example of a dumb team that buys high and sells low...Been doing this for years. Outside of the occasional non roster off season find, this Front Office isnt worth shit..

[klaiggeb]

You're singing my song about the front off, Mordy. They suck!


I knew we were in trouble when Sabean turned the reins over to Evans a couple of years back.


Evans, to me, is like so many other baseball executives. They know numbers and saber metrics and bottom line profit and loss statements, but they know LITTLE about how to build a team.

We won with teams with Character and talent.

We NEVER had the best talent in the league. We weren't even close.

But we had guys with character who WANTED to win, and were willing to sacrifice personal numbers to do it.


Evans has PROVEN to me that he doesn't understand that.


He looks a numbers and off he goes.


Example: It didn't take a genius to know that Austin Jackson was likely to slide after his career year last year.

Players ALWAYS do that.

Did Evans look at his history? From 2014 he was with FIVE FREAKING TEAMS!

There is a REASON a player changes teams so often... but I guess that didn't matter to Bobby.

He looked at Jackson's numbers LAST YEAR and said, "Oh, my god! We gots to go get this guy! Good numbers. Great numbers! And he's cheap!"



Bottom line, he doesn't know what he's doing.

[rog]

Evans has PROVEN to me that he doesn't understand that.


He looks a numbers and off he goes.


Rog -- How do we know how Bobby approaches situations, Boly? Don't forget that Bobby was cutting his teeth with the Giants when they had their greatest postseason success.


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[rog]

Example: It didn't take a genius to know that Austin Jackson was likely to slide after his career year last year.

Players ALWAYS do that.

Did Evans look at his history? From 2014 he was with FIVE FREAKING TEAMS!

There is a REASON a player changes teams so often... but I guess that didn't matter to Bobby.

He looked at Jackson's numbers LAST YEAR and said, "Oh, my god! We gots to go get this guy! Good numbers. Great numbers! And he's cheap!"


Rog -- I think the last sentence gets to the crux of the matter. Which player would we have signed who could play all three outfield positions and cost $3 million per season? We realize how little the Giants had available to sign another outfielder, don't we?


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[rog]

Did Evans look at his history? From 2014 he was with FIVE FREAKING TEAMS!

There is a REASON a player changes teams so often... but I guess that didn't matter to Bobby.

He looked at Jackson's numbers LAST YEAR


Rog -- Do we honestly think that Bobby Evans looked only at Austin Jackson's numbers from last season? Honestly?

As for Jackson, he's hit .356 for the Mets and is now at .284 on the season. That's not bad at all for a $3 million player signed as a fourth outfielder -- especially given Austin's very poor start.

I think we're just frustrated here and are making assumptions about how Bobby Evans makes decisions that are based more on our own personal prejudices than on facts that we are in position to know.

Have you noticed that you keep pointing to sabermetrics for the Giants' problems, Boly? You are trying to learn to understand them, but it seems to me that your knowledge level is still far less than your prejudice on the subject.

Your logic seems to be:

. Sabermetrics are bad.

. The Giants aren't as good as you expected.

. Bobby Evans is the guy responsible for acquiring players for the Giants.

. Hence, Evans must be relying too much on sabermetrics.


I personally thought the Giants should rebuild over the winter. I don't believe you did, Boly. I thought the Giants went the wrong direction, but for a team that had virtually no salary with which to improve, I thought they at least gave themselves a chance.

I think you may have thought they were better than they truly were and are now becoming disillusioned. I thought they were a team with the potential to make the playoffs if things went right. Things HAVEN'T gone right, and I think they've played pretty much to their potential in overcoming all the injuries they've faced.

You've been blaming the injuries. You've been blaming the umpires. Now all of a sudden it's sabermetrics?

By the way, I agree with you that sabermetrics are part of the Giants' problem. They're trying to catch up, but they're way behind the curve in that area. At least to the best of my knowledge.

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[klaiggeb]

Rog -- How do we know how Bobby approaches situations, Boly? Don't forget that Bobby was cutting his teeth with the Giants when they had their greatest postseason success.

***boly says***

1-We don't know that that is all he looked at, but based upon his moves, it seems obvious to ME that THAT IS WHAT HE DID.

2-Just because he was an apprentice under Sabean doesn't mean he learned squat about the players, characteristics and other intangibles that Sabean DID know./

3-The fact that Austin Jackson is hot NOW, doesn't faze me at all. Let's see where he is when the season ends.

4-Austin did NOT perform under the pressure of being on a perceived contender.

5-Sabermetrics ISN'T the problem with this Giant team. Under pefroming is

[sfgdood]

Everyone knows I'm no Bobby Evans fan but you can't really blame him for Jackson. The team was looking for right handed bats that could help a team that was AWFUL against lefties. Jackson throughout his career has been good--not always great--against lefties. In 2017 he was PHENOMINAL against lefties. He ripped them to shreds. At the price the Giants paid for him, it seemed like a solid signing.

Again, what I have been criticizing is not so much the specific moves that were made, but the overall philosophy. We needed to get younger and better. We got a bit better--not a lot--but we also got much older. We need to use some of our older assets as trading chips to build a young, solid base.

[Islandboagie]

We needed pitching, they didn't address that last off season. They were trying to piece together an offense and defense suited for a bandbox stadium. What they should have focused on was pitching and defense suited for our park. That is what worked in the past and for whatever reason they lost sight of that.

I don't think they need to completely revamp their roster to be good again. A few trades might this off season will get them in a competitive groove again, but it starts with having a strong pitching staff. Trade Belt and Panik, and try to unload Samardjiza and Melancon even if it means eating a large chunk of their contracts.

[sfgdood]

disagree Boagie...in the postseason, the Giants didn't have any idea that MadBum and Cueto and Samardzija would all be injured. Hindsight is 20/20. The Giants team ERA of 3.97 is 9th in the NL. Considering all the injuries, that's pretty impressive.
Pitching has been the least of the Giants' worries this season.

[sfgdood]

By the way, I agree with you that a few moves could possibly make the Giants "good"...but it will take a full gut rebuild to make it a championship roster.

[klaiggeb]

Randy, what I hold Evans accountable for is going after Jackson AFTER such a hot season...at his age, AND, more importantly NOT paying attention to the fact that he's been with SO MANY TEAMS in the last few years.

THAT should tell everyone oodles!

told me a lot!

[rog]

-We don't know that that is all he looked at, but based upon his moves, it seems obvious to ME that THAT IS WHAT HE DID.


Rog -- "Obvious" might be a bit of an overstatement. As you know, I occasionally pay attention to sabermetrics, and I would have strongly advised him not to trade for Evan Longoria. In fact, I would have strongly recommended rebuilding.

I can't tell you what his actual sabermetric people told him (or his scouts, either), but I know I would have told him to do it completely differently.

When I graded the Giants' off-season moves, I gave them a B. I thought their creativity was worth an A, since it gave them a chance even though they entered the off-season with little more salary room than Barbara gives me for an allowance. But I thought they went the wrong direction, so I couldn't in good conscience give them an A.

I could have given them an F for going in the wrong direction (or maybe a W). But while I didn't agree with it, I understood why they did what they did. And while the gamble was a bit of a longshot from the start, if the Giants had stayed healthy, they likely would still be in it.

Probably not to win it (all), but in it.




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[rog]

Just because he was an apprentice under Sabean doesn't mean he learned squat about the players, characteristics and other intangibles that Sabean DID know.


Rog -- Very true. And there has been no general manager in recent years who has been as divided as to whether he's very good or not very good at all.

The one thing we know is that the Giants didn't exactly give Bobby a vote of confidence when they brought Brian Sabean more heavily back into the equation.



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[rog]

The fact that Austin Jackson is hot NOW, doesn't faze me at all. Let's see where he is when the season ends.


Rog -- Oh, he could easily fall off the rest of the way. But at .284 now, he's closer to the end of the season than when he left the Giants with a .242 average. Since leaving the Giants, Austin has hit consistently well, although he's beginning to fall off in the past five games. He's gone only three for 21, which is far and away his worst streak since joining the Mets.

But for the season overall, he's played pretty much like the fourth outfielder the Giants signed him to be. Actually, he's been a little worse, since his defense has continued to be horrible even since joining the Mets.

But, seriously. Whom would WE have signed for $3 million per season?




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[rog]

Randy, what I hold Evans accountable for is going after Jackson AFTER such a hot season...at his age, AND, more importantly NOT paying attention to the fact that he's been with SO MANY TEAMS in the last few years.


Rog -- Whom would you have signed, Boly?


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[sfgdood]

Boly...the Jackson contract was very modest and IIRC, it was not such that Jackson was guaranteed a starting spot, he would have to earn his time. So, to me, there wasn't an expectation that Jackson would repeat his '17 performance vs lefties. There certainly was a hope that Austin would do at least as well as he has for most of his career.

[klaiggeb]

Whom would I have signed, Roger?

I haven't a clue because I didn't know who was available.

Jackson's contract wasn't a big one, but with that MOVEMENT history between clubs?

I would have been very leery.

Also, I commented WHEN HE WAS A GIANT that he had an AWFUL swing.

Awful!

He was always looking like he was falling backwards, and that concerned me.


The eye test would have been a big factor in my not signing him.



But understand this; I was not against the signing, per say, but 2 years?


And all that aside, I was just using it as an example of how Evans' blueprint failed and failed miserably.

[rog]

Whom would I have signed, Roger?

I haven't a clue because I didn't know who was available.


Rog -- There wasn't a whole lot available, and the money available was small. That's why I don't think the criticism is fair. In order to say it was a bad signing, don't we have to know what the other choices were?

Remember how you told us you had followed Bud Norris's career closely, and he wouldn't have been a good signing for the Giants? Maybe this example isn't a fair one because Bud was shifted to closer, but he has 26 saves, a 2.96 ERA and a 1.05 WHIP. As it turned out, the Giants could have used him.

And Bud signed for the same $3 million per season as Jackson did. And for only one season.

Maybe Bud is an example of whom the Giants should have signed. It wouldn't have done anything for their outfield problem, but in retrospect it would have been the better signing.

As for the Giants signing Austin for two seasons, I suspect they did so for one of three reasons:

. They felt they couldn't sign him if all they offered was one year or

. They had very little money available and needed to lower the average annual value of the contract to facilitate staying under the cap or

. Both.


As for Austin's poor hitting mechanics, he might have developed them after the signing. As you said, mechanical flaws come on so gradually that a hitter often doesn't even realize the change. IF had the flaws earlier, he somehow hit with them -- both before his time with the Giants and after.

As for his hitting southpaws well, which was something they were looking for from their outfield, that was more of a mixed bag. Austin was fabulous against southpaws last season, but prior to that he hadn't been special against them.

Statcast said Austin didn't hit nearly as well in 2017 as his numbers indicated. And while he isn't hitting close to as well as last year, they say he still isn't hitting as well as the numbers indicate.

While he made what might have been 2017's best catch (falling over the railing in right-center), his fielding had been declining for a while.

The closer I look at it, the more I'm agreeing with you that the signing had some questions. I'm sure Austin wasn't the guy the Giants would have preferred, but I'm not sure there were better fourth outfielders who were available for the same money. I'm not sure there weren't either. I simply don't know.

One thing that may have hurt Austin with the Giants is that I believe he was forced into a bigger role than the Giants had hoped. In the back of their minds I suspect they were hoping against hope that Steven Duggar could take the center field role at least as the strong side of a platoon. When he couldn't, Gregor Blanco was a disappointment in that role.


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[klaiggeb]

Again, it wasn't a terrible signing, but it's just one of many examples where Evans and his blue print really didn't work.

Randy is right. Randy WAS right. Randy is STILL right.

I am, was, and am still wrong.

I thought we could win.

Wrong.

Not retool, rebuild.

That was the way to go.

[rog]

I think pretty much all of us agree on that now.

[rog]

Randy, what I hold Evans accountable for is going after Jackson AFTER such a hot season...at his age, AND, more importantly NOT paying attention to the fact that he's been with SO MANY TEAMS in the last few years.

THAT should tell everyone oodles!

told me a lot!


Rog -- When you looked and it told you a lot, did you look at the circumstances of each move?

Austin was with his original team, the Tigers for 4 2/3 seasons. He was then part of a trade that allowed the Tigers to acuire David Price. A year later he was on the verge of free agency, and the Mariners apparently traded him while they could still get something in return.

Then he signed with his fourth team, the White Sox, when he became a free agent. As a fourth outfielder, he was able to sign only a one-year contract. The next winter he again signed a one-year deal as a free agent, this time with the Indians. Is it any wonder that when he signed with the Giants he wanted a two-year deal?

When you're a fourth outfielder approaching free agency, you hope you get better quickly so you can get a big, multi-year contract. If you don't get a lot better, you have to settle for what you can find.

I think you might have been implying that Jackson was a problem child, but given that he lasted as long as he did with his original team and that he was finally traded so the Tigers could acquire David Price, I'm thinking that probably wasn't the case.

Maybe it was, but I don't think there is any way for us to know unless we research the subject, and even then we may not be able to tell. Knowing he played for several teams without knowing the full circumstances can give us a guess, but it likely doesn't tell us all we need to know.




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[klaiggeb]

No, I wasn't implying he was a problem child at all, Rog.

From all accounts, he's a GREAT teammate.

But people changes jobs for a reason... and often that reason is not a good one.


In Jackson's case, he likely was with Detroit for so long because they were trying to give him time to grow and develop.

But he really didn't pan out as expect.

Thus, he's bounced from team, to team, to team...this year, he's been on 3 teams!

Now he didn't play much, if at all for Texas this year, but the fact is, he was with 3 teams.

And August 31st hasn't hit yet.

Wouldn't surprise me to see him moved again.


Thus, since 2014, and including Texas, he's been with EIGHT TEAMS!

Holy cow!!

Any way you slice this pie, it ain't purdy.


Now, I have no clue as to the reason why he's been moved so often, but for SOME REASON, after having him for a short while, teams realize...he ain't the guy they thought he'd be.


Going back to what I said above; when a person changes jobs frequently, and comes to me for employment, I have to ask myself, why? Why so many companies? And worst, why should I NOW HIRE HIM?

[rog]

Going back to what I said above; when a person changes jobs frequently, and comes to me for employment, I have to ask myself, why? Why so many companies? And worst, why should I NOW HIRE HIM?


Rog -- Excellent questions. The answers ARE important. And in the final analysis, wouldn't you want to compare those answers with the answers to similar questions about each of the other players who are also available for an affordable price? We're talking about a fourth outfielder position. There are almost always going to be questions about EVERY candidate who is affordable.

I suspect you remember Harry "Suitcase" Simpson. There was a reason for that nickname. (Actually, he had the nickname before he entered organized ball, and it came from a cartoon character who, like the player, had big feet.) His career started out something like Austin's, then he was sent to the minors, then sold, then traded several times.

When all was said and done, Harry wound up hitting .266 with a .739 OPS, pretty decent numbers for a fourth outfielder.

Particularly in today's game, when you're a so-so player, you're likely to move around a lot. Cody Ross was a better player than Austin, and Cody played for eight teams in a dozen seasons.

So, yes, I would very much want to know the answers to your questions. But I would be wary of making judgments before I had them.




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[rog]

Prior to being signed by the Giants, Austin had played for five teams in seven seasons. That's not exactly stability, but in today's game, that's not a huge number of teams for a mediocre player.

Marlon Byrd was a much better player than Austin, yet if you count both times he played for the Phillies, he played for 11 teams in his 15-year career.

Once I found out that Austin wasn't a problem, I would want to know from my scouts and analytical people what level of performance was likely NOW. If they thought he could contribute, why NOT sign him?

Well, maybe because the Giants should have been rebuilding, but that's a different story.

[rog]

Incidentally, have we noticed how little money and how few years the lesser free agents are getting these days? The squeeze on lower levels of free agency has been noticeable.

[klaiggeb]

Suitcase Simpson is a great example.

A decent enough ballplayer... but that's all he was.

Same thing with Austin, albeit Austin runs better and is a better defender.

[rog]

Suitcase Simpson is a great example.

A decent enough ballplayer... but that's all he was.

Same thing with Austin, albeit Austin runs better and is a better defender.


Rog -- To me, they both sound a little like fourth outfielders.




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