Many questions? No. Only Only One.

[klaiggeb]

Unlike most fans who have multiple questions about this team, I have only 1.

How?
Giants...

How can you sleep at night?

How can you look your at your face in the mirror each morning as you shave and not want to slash your wrists with the razor?

How can you look your family and friends in the eye and not turn away in shame?

How can you walk around in public and not wear a disguise?

How can you live with yourselves in light of your massive under achieving?

How can you keep your breakfast, lunch or dinner, down?

How can you go about your business each day and actually claim to be doing your damnedest?

How can you cash each month's paycheck and keep a straight face?

And finally, how can you call yourselves professionals, when your performance has been anything but...

Indeed...

How...

[sfgdood]

I'm no linguistics expert but that seems like more than one question to me

[Islandboagie]

That's a little extreme, isn't it, Boly?

Look at what some of these guys have accomplished...3 Championships and a trophy wall full of individual achievements...they, at times have been the very best of an elite group of players that are lucky to just make it to the major leagues..and you think they should take their own life with a razor? That's ludicrous.

[klaiggeb]

No, boagie, THESE guys didn't accomplish that.

THOSE OTHER guys did.


THOSE teams had other players we no longer have.

All we have left is a shadow of what Posey and Panik and Pence used to be


We have an oft injured Bumgarner and a once again, back to his old self, swinging and missing every thing, Brandon Belt.

Not even close to the same team.

Gone are CAIN, LINCECUM, VOGY, CASILLA, ZITO, ROMO, and LOPEZ, just to name a few.

This group has NO:

Aubry Huff, no Cody Ross, no Edgar Renteria, no Marco Scutaro, just to name a few.



These guys are an embarrassment.

These guys make me want to vomit.

These guys can't even handle the pressure of an RBI situation!

THOSE other guys could.

THESE guys start pinching their butt cheeks tighter 'n hell and then fold as soon as they get a RISP.

THESE guys give up more walk off HRs than I've ever seen ANY giant team do.

THOSE guys fought and scraped and battled for all 162+ games.

THESE guys show up at the ball park... and do little more than occupy their positions.

THOSE guys had heart.

THESE guys couldn't spell heart if you spotted them all of the letter BUT the "t."




And as to the "slash your wrists" comment, I can't believe you took that seriously.

I mean, seriously!

It was sarcastic humor, something I do a lot, and after all the years you've been reading my rants and nonsense, YOU should have known that.

Sheesh!

I may be a moron, and I'm likely an idiot, but I would NEVER advocate suicide, not even a Dodger (And yes, that's sarcastic humor, too, Roger)



And to hear that YOU think that's what I meant, literally; that I meant it to be taken at face value disturbs me.



All of those questions I asked are still pertinent ones.

Every single one.

How CAN they look at themselves in the mirror?

How CAN they live with themselves?

How CAN they not hide their faces in public?

How CAN they accept their paycheck with a straight face?

All those are legit questions, but instead, you focus on one, sarcastic comment that was meant as Hyperbole...Sheesh.

Give me a fricken' break

[sfgdood]

I hate to break it to you, Boly, but if you were a fan of any but like 4 or 5 teams you would feel similarly about your team. Your expectations are pretty darn high and to be honest I can understand it with these guys making such ridiculous salaries. But the fact remains, none of them are perfect

[Islandboagie]

I agree with you, Boly. Those guys were different, and that's why I have always wanted the Giants to hold onto those guys. I would be perfectly fine if the Giants brought those guys out of "retirement" and let them play it out. Lincecum, Pagan, Vogey, Peavy...whoever. At least until we got some guys who were worthy of actually replacing them.

When I say It's harsh, I'm thinking of Posey, Bumgarner, Crawford...etc. Anyone with a ring gets a free pass from me. The others? If they wanted to slit their throats with a razor I'd let them. In fact, if it were Samardjiza or Melancon, I'd help.

[klaiggeb]

Couple of things, boagie, I thought your comment was directed towards the "slash your wrist," part, not the players.

If you were so unhappy, I thought, with that part, why weren't you upset with me asking why they couldn't go outside without wearing a disguise.


Secondly, notice in most of my posts on the subject, I single out 2 players in particular, most of the time: McCutchin, 1st and Longo second.

Thirdly, though I'm unhappy with Buster's performance, please remember back prior to the break when it was announced he had a hip injury.

I stated that, if that was the case, I understood his problems.

That doesn't, however, absolve Bochy for hitting him 3rd or 4th.

When Mays lost it, they hit him 1 hole, because of his great OBP, not 3rd.


I've never ranted and raved about Crawford's problems, nor Bum's, nor Panik's, nor Pence's.

So I guess, in a sense, I, too, have given them a pass.

But as a team, their inability to play up to there normal standards is inexcusable.

And along the way I realized what ticks me off the most... is that I canNOT do a damned thing about it.

I know I have a controller personality. That's a fact, and not having any control is a killer. for me.

[Islandboagie]

I give Crawford a pass, he hit for a long time when nobody else was. Crawford ain't supposed to be a major run producer for us, he plays a defensive position and adds a lot of offense as well...If the others were doing what they SHOULD be doing we'd be fine with what Crawford has given us.

[rog]

If the others were doing what they SHOULD be doing we'd be fine with what Crawford has given us.


Rog -- Among the key players, what SHOULD they be doing, Boagie? Some have been unlucky; others have simply had down years; still others may not be as good as we think they are.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4764/#ixzz5On0xbcQX

[klaiggeb]

Roger, are you serious?

Who?

How about:

Longoria
Posey
McCutchin
Crawford
Bum
Cueto
Panik
Just to name a few.

[rog]

Roger, are you serious?

Who?

How about:

Longoria
Posey
McCutchin
Crawford
Bum
Cueto
Panik
Just to name a few.


Rog -- Among the key players, what SHOULD they be doing, Boly? And what are we basing that assessment on?

Let's use Evan as an example. We talked over the winter how he became a much more passive hitter last season, to the point where we worried if he were covering for an injury. We knew that three of his past four seasons had been down years. What were reasonable expectations, although I would argue that their range was significant, with a relatively low ceiling and a very questionable floor.

Let's leave the worrisome sabermetrics out of it. What should we expect from a guy whose last four seasons had been .724, .764, .840 and .737? Especially after the high consistency of the six years preceding those: .874, .889, .879, .850, .896, .840. With the exception of 2013 (the last in that exceptionally consistent first six years of Evan's career), which looks like a transition year, that was a model of consistency.

Suddenly Evan becomes much less consistent (unless we consider his 840 in 2016 to be an outlier) at a much lower level. What should we expect going forward?

And again, that's not considering how much more passive his results were in 2017 than 2016, almost as if he were a different hitter. Should we have been expecting 2016? Should we have been expecting 2014, 2015 and 2017? Should we have been expecting further decline?

What were reasonable expectations, and why? One more question: Was it reasonable that 2016 could have been Evan's Final Spurt Year? And finally, was it possible the Rays were willing to take on Denard Span's highly questionable salary and to defray some of Evan's salary because they saw the writing on the wall regarding the direction of Evan's career?



Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4764/#ixzz5Opz8td47

[klaiggeb]

Rog -- Among the key players, what SHOULD they be doing, Boly? And what are we basing that assessment on?

****boly says***

Roger, these are the types of questions that I/we find upsetting, because it comes across as you just being argumentative.



They should, as I've stated many, many times, be performing at or near their career norms.

But they aren't.

So let's look at a few, ridiculous, you've got to be kidding, driving me FREAKING NUTS! examples.


I'll start with McCutchin.

Every single game darned near, and I MEAN DARNED NEAR every...stinking...game, Andrew takes, or swings and misses or poorly fouls off at at least 3 or more fast balls right down the gut!

Hey, no one is going to square the ball up every time, but his percentage of takes, fouls, or flat out misses at these pitches is off the charts.

I'd venture an uneducated guess that since the All Farce break, he's done this at least 30-50 or more times.



Longoria;

He's become so bad at chasing pitches so far below the strike zone that it's laughable.

And not laughable in a good way.

I mean it in a sarcastic way.

He's chasing pitches fastballs, usually, that often are close to bouncing, or at the very least, are down around his ankles.

He's now doing the same thing with pitches over the top of the strike zone, and from my observations, I don't see any end in sight.



Posey:

Hip thing aside, here's ANOTHER guy taking a ton of pitches right down the freaking gut. I get the hip causing loss of power, but his "guessing wrong" crap has gotten out of hand.



Crawford:

Now a 2 month, darned near, slump.

Ridiculous. He's chasing a ton of pitches way in off the plate, pulling off pitches, and fouling them off on the outside of the plate that he USED to drive the other way.

2 months?

Unacceptable.



Panik:

Who is the guy wearing his uniform? Not the Joe we all knew.


Hansen;

Will chase ANY off speed pitch that's down. Why pitchers even throw him a fastball for a strike is beyond me.

And from the right side, he's a joke. Up, down, outside... he doesn't care. Have bat, will hack.



D'arnuad:

A Longoria clone when it comes to chasing pitches up in the zone that are not strikes.

Did it again multiple times last night.

Want to play more? Learn the strike zone.



Bum:

Hey! Madison! Where the freaking hell is your command? Once upon a time this guy commanded the strike zone.

Now, it's hit and miss every outting.



The entire pitching staff:

3-2 and NOT a good count.

But these guys find a way to GET to 3-2 all too often.



If that's not enough examples, Roger I don't know what is.

[rog]

The question I'm asking is what results we should be expecting from each of these players, and why should that be what we're expecting?

Entering the season, most of the Giants' players were on downward slopes in their careers. Were we expecting performances similar to those when they were younger? Should we have been?

[klaiggeb]

Again, Rog, I've answered that question;

They should be performing near, or at, their career norms.

[rog]

I don't think it works that way. And let's not forget that AT&T Park works against the hitters.

We've talked about Evan Longoria. Since 2013 he's been a different player. Why would we think we would get the earlier Longoria - especially with half his games at AT&T Park.

I understand the faults you are seeing in guys like Evan. Chances are he had some of those same faults last season. Beginning in 2014 he just hasn't been the same guy. In 2016 he more or less equalled his WORST season of his first six, but didn't that look like an outlier? If not then, certainly it is looking that way now.

As for McCutchen, Andrew works out to be a better than average hitter when his home park is factored into the equation. Similar to Longoria, Andrew hasn't been the same hitter since 2014, although he's at least had two seasons of hope compared to Evan's one.

Andrew may have been the victim of bad luck. Let's look at his predicted slugging percentage each of the past four seasons based on how hard he's hit the ball:

2015 .523

2016 .455

2017 .475

2018 .472


Based on how he's hit the ball, Andrew has been pretty much the same hitter each of the past three seasons -- which is well below what he was in 2015 and far below what he was prior to that.

Hitters have up and down years because they don't hit the ball as well from one year to the other. But they also have up and down years because of good hitters' luck and bad hitters' luck. Based on 500 at bats the .300 hitter who gets just one fewer hit per week suddenly becomes a .250 hitter.

With Joe Panik, I think his back may be affecting his fielding, but I'm not so sure about his hitting. Some probably, but likely not as much as we think. Here are what the "contact" numbers say Joe should have hit each of the past four seasons:

2015 .286

2016 .262

2017 .261

2018 .288


His "contact" says he should be hitting for a slightly better average than any full season of his career.

Now, should we put total faith in the numbers I have posted here? I think they're valuable indicators, but perhaps not that much more absolute than batting average itself. I don't think though that they should be ignored.

Early this season Matt Carpenter of the Cardinals got off to a horrendous start. Yet his "contact" numbers were among the best in the game. So what happens? Since sometime in May, he's been the game's best hitter.

I'm intrigued to see what happens with Kendrys Morales, the DH of the Blue Jays. He's had excellent "contact" numbers this season, but until the weekend, he's been just mediocre. Suddenly he's caught fire as the "contact" numbers predicted he might. Will he keep it up with anything close to Carpenter's breakout? I think that would be asking too much, but I don't think it's too much to expect the last quarter of his season to be easily the best. Hey, in 40 days we'll know.

A final point: Two years ago we were citing how unlucky Joe was. Now we're saying he isn't the same player. His "contact" numbers give us hope that offensively at least, he's close to being the same player and should be bouncing back.

Will it happen? I don't know. But it does give me more hope than anything else I've seen. And with 11 hits in his past 32 at bats, he has been bouncing back of late. I certainly wouldn't give up on him.

Regarding McCutchen, the Giants need to find someone who sees that his slugging percentage could easily be right up there with his past two seasons. Expecting the Andrew of years before that though is too much, other than in a short run. But that's all the team trading for him will need -- a short run.

[klaiggeb]

Again, excuses.

I need to know only one thing; are they or are they not performing near their career norms.

Everything else is back ground noise.

[rog]

Don't you want to know WHY they're not performing near their career norms and whether it's reasonable for us to expect them to do so? Certainly in the cases of Longoria and McCutchen it isn't.

You were the first person I heard speak of the concept of Final Spurt Year. Good concept. Isn't it looking more and more likely that Longoria experienced his in 2016?

You think that would be too soon for a hitter to peak, but today's pitching is improving, including more speed on the fastball. Hitters peak later than pitchers because swinging the bat isn't as hard on the arm as pitching is. The decrease in hitters' reflexes is offset for a while by added experience. But as the ball gets to the plate faster and faster, reflexes become more and more important.

I believe the Giants' hitters haven't been better than they have been due to a combination of injuries, age and in some cases, bad luck. Even then, they've been better than last season. In 2017 they were next-to-last in scoring. This season there are five teams behind them.

On the other hand, AT&T has been more hitter-friendly this season than last, so perhaps their real gains are small or even non-existent. And yet on the other hand (Do we have three of them now?) Statcast says the Giants have hit the ball much harder this season.

So the Giants probably truly have hit the ball better this season. Have they improved as much as they should have after adding Longoria and McCutchen? That would depend on how much we expected from Evan and Andrew. Especially in the case of Evan, I think we expected too much.

The bottom line as to why the Giants aren't hitting as well as we expected includes injury, age, bad luck -- and over-expectation.

[rog]

By the way, are facts excuses, are they reasons, or are they merely facts?

[klaiggeb]

Don't you want to know WHY they're not performing near their career norms and whether it's reasonable for us to expect them to do so? Certainly in the cases of Longoria and McCutchen it isn't.

***boly says***

I would like to know.

But what you've given are merely YOUR REASONS based upon YOUR rationale, nothing more.

You want to blame the ballpark, fine.

That might explain power loss but NOT slugging percentage declines, as Flannery has pointed out night after night after night.



You come up with a reason based upon what ever numbers you choose, and suddenly to act as if it's fact.

It's not, Rog, it's your numbers and your opinion.

[rog]

That might explain power loss but NOT slugging percentage declines


Rog -- I'm confused on this one. Perhaps you meant to say something else?




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4764/#ixzz5P3nKYuEZ

[klaiggeb]

That might explain power loss but NOT slugging percentage declines


Rog -- I'm confused on this one. Perhaps you meant to say something else?

***boly says***

No, that's what I mean to say, Rog.

This has been a point that Flannery has been making for over a week now.

The giants power IS WAY down, as is their slugging percentage.

He has been talking about how this club rarely hits extra base hits this season.

Our "K's" are up, HRs and slugging, way down.

[rog]

That might explain power loss but NOT slugging percentage declines


Rog -- I'm confused on this one. Perhaps you meant to say something else?

***boly says***

No, that's what I mean to say, Rog.

This has been a point that Flannery has been making for over a week now.


Rog -- The giants power IS WAY down (from earlier in the season), as is their slugging percentage. If there is a power loss, there is almost sure to be a slugging percentage decline. It's like the old song, "Love and Marriage" -- cue up the melody -- "You can't have one without the other."

These days the relationship between power and slugging percentage is closer than the relationship between love and marriage.

[rog]

He has been talking about how this club rarely hits extra base hits this season.


Rog -- Last year's team averaged 1.53 bases per hit. This year's team is averaging 1.55 bases per hit. That's really close, and the slight difference favors this year's team.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4764?page=1#ixzz5P6tpCvPa

[rog]

Our "K's" are up, HRs and slugging, way down.


Rog -- The Giants' strikeouts are up, as is the case throughout baseball. Their home runs are on pace to beat last season's 139 to 128.

The Giants' slugging percentage a year ago was .386. This season it is .380. That's a much smaller drop than the league as a whole (.424. to .403).

The Giants' strikeouts are up by more than league average, but their homers are also up, and their slugging percentage has dropped only 6 points compared to the league average drop of 19 points.

If we're comparing this season's second half to this season's first half, things have gotten worse. If we're comparing this season to last, for the most part the Giants have improved (home runs) or dropped far less than the league average (slugging percentage).




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4764?page=1#ixzz5P6vAj1O8

[rog]

But what you've given are merely YOUR REASONS based upon YOUR rationale, nothing more.


Rog -- I think my main point is that both Longoria and McCutchen were depreciated assets when the Giants got them. Especially since they're older, it was unrealistic to expect them to appreciate back to their former levels. As the season has demonstrated.

That those guys had declined before the Giants got them was a fact. That this fact would mean that they definitely wouldn't get back the "magic" isn't a fact. But it should be enough to make the odds high that Longoria OR McCutchen would perform at his career average.

I simply think we set our expectations for McCutchen and especially Longoria too high.




Read more: sfgiantsmessageboard.proboards.com/thread/4764?page=1#ixzz5P6ycJIRm

[klaiggeb]

Flannery had a ton of different numbers to back up his points, and Captain Sabermetrics, Ahmed Fahreed, agreed with him.

For whatever that's worth.

[sfgdood]

Ahmed Fareed...otherwise known as Imma Smokeweed

[rog]

You don't think he is Ahmed Far-Fetched?

[rog]

If Tim said they are hitting worse than last season, he is wrong. If he said they're hitting worse than early in the season, he is right.

By the way, I really like Tim. Caught my last foul ball off his bat. I didn't bring a glove, but while I didn't catch a lot of them, I'm happy to say I never missed one.

Did you see the one earlier this year where a guy caught something like three foul balls in half an inning or something like that.

My dad was a foul ball magnet. For one of the rare times, we were sitting in the first row at Candlestick, right behind the plate. A ball actually went THROUGH the screen and right into his hands. I nicked the ball with my little finger, but fortunately I barely nicked it, and it still went right into my dad's hands. I doubt that my reflexes today would allow me to come close to the ball, which was basically a seat's width away.

My best catch of a fly ball came during a poorly attended weekday game and off the bat of Willie McCovey. I was right behind the plate in row six (seat 24!) of the lower level reserved and actually ran to the spot (I was six seats from the isle and the ball quickly came down in the isle), looked up, and the ball was right at my chest.

I was little more than an average ballplayer, but apparently I had quick reflexes and soft hands. Now my reflexes are gone, and I'm just plain soft!

Today Kruk and Kuip would say something like, "That guy should have brought a glove -- and a motor bike."